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"Long Covid" - long term health issues after infection

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Greybeard33

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Moderator note - posts #1-#7 originally in this thread:


There is growing evidence of serious long term health issues among a substantial proportion of those who have recovered from Covid-19, including those in younger age groups who had relatively mild symptoms. See:
...a study by King's College London found an estimated 10% of people with the virus take at least three weeks to recover, with 250,000 people in the UK alone thought to experience symptoms for 30 days or more.

Many of those experiencing long tail coronavirus were fit, active people whose lives have been completely turned upside down by the ongoing symptoms.
 
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yorkie

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There is growing evidence of serious long term health issues among a substantial proportion of those who have recovered from Covid-19, including those in younger age groups who had relatively mild symptoms.....
I'm not so sure about this; if so many millions of people have had it, I think we'd know by now if it was a "substantial proportion"
 

Bantamzen

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Er... a major arithmetical error here. 40000*100/2000000 = 2%, not 0.2%! An order of magnitude worse than the death rate from seasonal flu.

And the death rate is not the only issue. There is growing evidence of serious long term health issues among a substantial proportion of those who have recovered from Covid-19, including those in younger age groups who had relatively mild symptoms. See:

Quite frankly that article reads more like an attempt to talk up the effects rather than actually presenting evidence. There's no doubt some people will suffer longer term ailments, but that is true of others too.
 

initiation

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Quite frankly that article reads more like an attempt to talk up the effects rather than actually presenting evidence. There's no doubt some people will suffer longer term ailments, but that is true of others too.

Completely agree, it talks about 10% of people suffering some last effects beyond 30 days - but what is that made up of? Debilitating fatigue and other serious side effects or just feeling a bit off but better by day 40?

It seems a bit like reading the side effect small print on any medicine. You will find some people who suffer the side effects but for the vast majority there is no effect.
 

AdamWW

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Completely agree, it talks about 10% of people suffering some last effects beyond 30 days - but what is that made up of? Debilitating fatigue and other serious side effects or just feeling a bit off but better by day 40?

It seems a bit like reading the side effect small print on any medicine. You will find some people who suffer the side effects but for the vast majority there is no effect.

People will suffer side effects from drinking water if you tell them it's a medicine.

However it's good to see a study being done (and what is described here doesn't look very alarming) because otherwise I don't think there's a good way of capturing whether more people are turning up to GPs with odd symptoms.

It would also be useful to know if there is evidence that people who have had asymptomatic Covid might be suffering problems later. (Not very easy to do, of course).
 

Bletchleyite

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It would also be useful to know if there is evidence that people who have had asymptomatic Covid might be suffering problems later. (Not very easy to do, of course).

Post-viral symptoms (particularly fatigue) are very common with a good many viruses - so while we should consider this we shouldn't overtalk it unless the effects are different in some way from the norm.
 

AdamWW

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Post-viral symptoms (particularly fatigue) are very common with a good many viruses - so while we should consider this we shouldn't overtalk it unless the effects are different in some way from the norm.

Yes.

But of course if long term symptoms are at, say, the 1% level, that becomes significant if going for a 'let the healthy population all get it because they almost certainly won't die' strategy.
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes.

But of course if long term symptoms are at, say, the 1% level, that becomes significant if going for a 'let the healthy population all get it because they almost certainly won't die' strategy.

Indeed. By "in some way different from the norm" I was also thinking of frequency of adverse effects.
 

yorkie

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Yes.

But of course if long term symptoms are at, say, the 1% level, that becomes significant if going for a 'let the healthy population all get it because they almost certainly won't die' strategy.
But if you can't eliminate it (which we surely can't) then ultimately, there isn't really any viable alternative but to accept people are going to get it.

The issue here is that those who persue a 'we must prevent anyone getting it just in case' agenda are extremely keen to overstate any potential effects of the disease into furthering their impossible agenda.

They tend to downplay the severity of 'flu, which of course is mild for most people but does kill thousands of people and can also have long lasting effects too, because they know that we have no alternative but to live alongside the 'flu virus and therefore are keen to exaggerate the effects of Covid-19 because they don't want us to end up living alongside the virus that causes Covid-19.

But when you look at the people with those agendas it's becoming pretty clear why they have those agendas; they don't have the interests of young people and figure generations at heart, nor do they care about poorer people.
 

AdamWW

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But if you can't eliminate it (which we surely can't) then ultimately, there isn't really any viable alternative but to accept people are going to get it.

People are going to get it, but a vaccine would make the difference between most of the population getting it and a much smaller fraction.
 

yorkie

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People are going to get it, but a vaccine would make the difference between most of the population getting it and a much smaller fraction.
Yes that is true; clearly the only goal is herd immunity, which is going to be reached through a combination of infections and vaccinations; my issue really is that people should not be using scaremongering tactics to further their unachievable agendas.

A sense of perspective is needed here.
 

AdamWW

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Yes that is true; clearly the only goal is herd immunity, which is going to be reached through a combination of infections and vaccinations; my issue really is that people should not be using scaremongering tactics to further their unachievable agendas.

A sense of perspective is needed here.

No argument with that - I'd like data not scaremongering.
 

OxtedL

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I've been trying to avoid posting on the Covid forum, but I couldn't really let this one go unchallenged.

But if you can't eliminate it (which we surely can't) then ultimately, there isn't really any viable alternative but to accept people are going to get it.
This is true.
The issue here is that those who persue a 'we must prevent anyone getting it just in case' agenda are extremely keen to overstate any potential effects of the disease into furthering their impossible agenda.
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of why we are in lockdown, held by people on both sides of the lockdown debate.

There are two possible ways out of the current crisis if we want to avoid a significant number of deaths:
  • Herd immunity, via a vaccine
  • An effective treatment, to increase the capacity of our healthcare system.
Until we have either of those, we have to keep cases below the capacity of our healthcare system or we will see another large wave of deaths. This is because a large number of people (much larger than the number of people who otherwise die from covid) need major interventions at hospital in order to recover from the disease. If we exceed the ability of our healthcare system to do this, more people die. This is what happened in Wuhan, Italy and New York until they got their outbreaks under control, and is what is happening in Brazil and other parts of Latin America.

In reality, keeping the number of cases within the capacity of our healthcare system actually means keeping them as close to zero as practically possible.
This is because:
  • The virus spreads incredibly fast. Cases grow exponentially, and the rate of exponential increase (R number) is not small.
  • Currently, our only way of reducing cases once they get close to system capacity is to impose extremely damaging restrictions on people's social and economic activities.
  • The damaging restrictions we use to reduce the number of cases take much longer to reduce the number of cases than it takes for them to increase in the first place.
Keeping case numbers as low as possible at all times means you can impose the damaging restrictions on people's movements for as short a period of time as possible and on the most local level you are able to, rather than needing a severe and widespread intervention like we had in the UK from March to July.

Coincidentally, this is current government policy in most countries around the world.

It also has handy side effects like reducing the number of covid deaths, and freeing up hospital capacity to treat other things like e.g. cancer.

If you are a healthy young person, the need for a government policy that keeps cases within healthcare capacity (which, as discussed above, is the effectively the same as keeping cases very near zero) is possibly the only reason you need to be worried about coronavirus cases spreading, and it may feel unfair.

But until we have a treatment or a vaccine this is the reality of the situation we are in. It is unlikely to change before the end of Winter 2020/21 so we should get used to it.

They tend to downplay the severity of 'flu, which of course is mild for most people but does kill thousands of people and can also have long lasting effects too, because they know that we have no alternative but to live alongside the 'flu virus and therefore are keen to exaggerate the effects of Covid-19 because they don't want us to end up living alongside the virus that causes Covid-19.

If coronavirus were only as bad as flu, we would not have been in lockdown, because our healthcare system is able to cope with the levels of flu we see in our population most years. This is not what we saw in our hospitals in April.
 

Scrotnig

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f coronavirus were only as bad as flu, we would not have been in lockdown, because our healthcare system is able to cope with the levels of flu we see in our population most years. This is not what we saw in our hospitals in April.
But the only reason flu seems less bad is we have vaccines for it. They vary in success year to year but they do mitigate the worst of it. People still die though.
 

Richard Scott

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If coronavirus were only as bad as flu, we would not have been in lockdown, because our healthcare system is able to cope with the levels of flu we see in our population most years. This is not what we saw in our hospitals in April.
But it is coping and rather too well in some cases where virus cases in hospitals are penny numbers but still A&E departments are closed. The nightingale hospitals were hardly used. Deaths are still dropping and cases are not exactly climbing rapidly so most of your stated reasons are not an issue at the moment.
 

Greybeard33

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The issue here is that those who persue a 'we must prevent anyone getting it just in case' agenda are extremely keen to overstate any potential effects of the disease into furthering their impossible agenda.

They tend to downplay the severity of 'flu, which of course is mild for most people but does kill thousands of people and can also have long lasting effects too, because they know that we have no alternative but to live alongside the 'flu virus and therefore are keen to exaggerate the effects of Covid-19 because they don't want us to end up living alongside the virus that causes Covid-19.

But when you look at the people with those agendas it's becoming pretty clear why they have those agendas; they don't have the interests of young people and future generations at heart, nor do they care about poorer people.
Would you care to name any of the scientists or health professionals to whom you are attributing a malign motivation for advocating the "precautionary principle"? Do you have any objective evidence that "they don't have the interests of young people and future generations at heart, nor do they care about poorer people", or is this just your personal opinion?

I have taken the liberty of amending the thread title, because I thought "post viral fatigue" belittled the range of symptoms described in the OP. Further quotes from the linked ITV article:
A major UK research study into the long-term health impacts of Covid-19 is being carried out at the University of Leicester and the University Hospitals of Leicester NHS Trust.

The PHOSP-COVID study is the largest of its kind in the world and encompasses many medical disciplines that reflect the range of symptoms seen in Long Covid patients.

Dr Rachael Evans, a Consultant Respiratory Physician at University of Leicester, Glenfield Hospital, is among the team of experts trying to understand, in her words, “what's driving those symptoms, what's causing them and what can we do about them”.
Dr Evans said the team, led by Chris Brightling, Professor of Respiratory Medicine, are "definitely seeing a good proportion of people" with ongoing symptoms such as fatigue, breathlessness and problems with concentration.

And while older ‘long-haulers’ are struggling with worsening memories post-virus, Dr Evans says young people are also suffering from what is often described as "brain fog".

"People feel very different to the way that they're able to think and process things compared to before (they had) Covid.”

They are also seeing a proportion of people that have higher levels of anxiety and depression.
I think the mental effects of Covid-19 on young people are particularly concerning. A policy of suppressing virus outbreaks gives more time to develop effective treatments, even if SARS-COV-2 is destined, in the long run, to become endemic in the human population worldwide.
 

Bantamzen

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I think the mental effects of Covid-19 on young people are particularly concerning. A policy of suppressing virus outbreaks gives more time to develop effective treatments, even if SARS-COV-2 is destined, in the long run, to become endemic in the human population worldwide.

What about the mental effects of being isolated from friends & family, not being able to partake in leisure activities, or even being told that everyone around you might pose a risk to you, and you to them? Advances in medical treatments should not come at the cost of an entire nation's or even global mental wellbeing.
 

Yew

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I think the mental effects of Covid-19 on young people are particularly concerning. A policy of suppressing virus outbreaks gives more time to develop effective treatments, even if SARS-COV-2 is destined, in the long run, to become endemic in the human population worldwide.

I feel that most of the mental effects can be attributed to the lockdown and cessation of normal life.
 

Richard Scott

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I feel that most of the mental effects can be attributed to the lockdown and cessation of normal life.
Agree, why are we blaming everything on the virus? It's our reaction to it that's causing the problems! People not taking exams, mental health issues, rising waiting lists are all self inflicted - the virus hasn't done this.
 

Yew

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Would you care to name any of the scientists or health professionals to whom you are attributing a malign motivation for advocating the "precautionary principle"? Do you have any objective evidence that "they don't have the interests of young people and future generations at heart, nor do they care about poorer people", or is this just your personal opinion?

Here's the thing, if we take a "reasonable worst case scenario" for various domains, and assume them all concurrently, we actually end up with an incredibly unlikely scenario. This is simply due to the nature of combining uncertainty results. I've seen no accounts that they are compensating properly for these phenomena in the reports that I've read, and given that I didn't encounter this interesting piece of mathematics until the final year of a physical sciences Ph.D, I'm starting to feel as if they are not considering it properly.
 

DB

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Moderator note - posts #1-#7 originally in this thread:


There is growing evidence of serious long term health issues among a substantial proportion of those who have recovered from Covid-19, including those in younger age groups who had relatively mild symptoms. See:

I wouldn't describe taking three or four weeks to fully recover as 'serious long term health issues'.
 

Greybeard33

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Here's the thing, if we take a "reasonable worst case scenario" for various domains, and assume them all concurrently, we actually end up with an incredibly unlikely scenario. This is simply due to the nature of combining uncertainty results. I've seen no accounts that they are compensating properly for these phenomena in the reports that I've read, and given that I didn't encounter this interesting piece of mathematics until the final year of a physical sciences Ph.D, I'm starting to feel as if they are not considering it properly.
Which reports are you referring to, which end up with an incredibly unlikely scenario? Are they relevant to the topic of this thread?
 

Greybeard33

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"Serious long term health issues" are in effect permanent ones. 3-4 weeks is a normal recovery period from a non-trivial infection of any kind.
Indeed. Undoubtedly there are some individuals who have not (yet) made a full recovery from Covid-19 after several months, but the disease was only identified 8 months ago.

The King's College "TwinsUK" study should hopefully provide more information:
People who have been seriously unwell and treated on intensive care units can expect to take some months to recover fully, regardless of their ailment. However, with COVID-19, evidence is mounting that some people who have had relatively mild symptoms at home may also have a prolonged illness. Overwhelming fatigue, palpitations, muscle aches, pins and needles and many more symptoms are being reported as after-effects of the virus. Around 10% of the 3.9 million people contributing to the COVID Symptom Study app have effects lasting more than four weeks.
 

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There are two possible ways out of the current crisis if we want to avoid a significant number of deaths:
  • Herd immunity, via a vaccine
  • An effective treatment, to increase the capacity of our healthcare system.

3: properly control the spread of it.

Those with a libertarian streak may describe our lockdown as severe, but it really wasn't imposed early enough, restrictive enough, or enforced properly.

I was taking advantage of the once-daily exercise ration about 5 days a week until the number of people clearly dossing around Bolton's green spaces and littering them with beer cans and food packaging put me off completely.

If we'd locked down more thoroughly and earlier we could be in a similar position to New Zealand by now, with any imported cases being properly tracked and contained before infecting hundreds of people.
 

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3: properly control the spread of it.

Those with a libertarian streak may describe our lockdown as severe, but it really wasn't imposed early enough, restrictive enough, or enforced properly.

I was taking advantage of the once-daily exercise ration about 5 days a week until the number of people clearly dossing around Bolton's green spaces and littering them with beer cans and food packaging put me off completely.

If we'd locked down more thoroughly and earlier we could be in a similar position to New Zealand by now, with any imported cases being properly tracked and contained before infecting hundreds of people.

How many times have we been through this? There is no precedent ever for trying to eliminate a widespread disease using this sort of tactic, and no reason to think it would work.

Until this year pretty much everyone would have regarded the idea as ridiculous, but many now seem to have convinced themselves that actually we can stop the tide from coming in.
 

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Bletchleyite

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There was no such thing in England.

There was in terms of us being asked to do that, but it was never in law. There was also never a time or distance limit per-se.

The lockdown was highly effective, and resulted in a curve very similar to countries that locked down harder, so there was no need to damage peoples' mental and physical health by refusing to allow exercise (I retain the view that keeping kids indoors - and as they're mostly flat dwellers it would actually have been *indoors*, for 2 months, as the Spaniards did, was institutional child abuse and totally unnecessary). The thing that was wrong with it was (a) it started about a week too late, and (b) it probably ended 2-3 weeks too early.
 
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