Long term fare evasion

[junkrat74]

Hello all, story time from stupid old me. Today I was caught using a short ticket for a journey. I live in a small town in the southeast, the closest station being Wivelsfield, which has no barriers. I work in London so a few times a week I get the train from Wivelsfield to London Bridge. However, since there are no barriers I have gotten into the bad habit of forgetting to buy a ticket when I get on the train, and only buying a return from East Croydon to London Bridge (1 stop). In a panic, when questioned initially I stated that the station I came from was East Croydon, however, upon being pressed by the guard I gave my actual address in Burgess Hill and admitted I had a short ticket for the journey. The guard was making lots of notes and issued me with the receipt which is pictured below, which I believe is an MG11 witness statement.

I know I am very stupid for not paying the full price of my ticket and that I have no excuse, the only reason I have is that I wanted to save money. Despite being stressed about the price of train tickets, the stress about money is because of trying to save rather than survive, so again is no excuse. Moreover, having looked at my history, I'm worried they will look at my trainline purchases and see that that I have done it more than once, which I understand to be a serious issue and fully appreciate the gravity of this situation.

Since the incident happened today I have yet to receive a letter, however gave my number to the guard, I'm not sure if they have my email address. The guard didn't go through my phone to see whether I has previous tickets of the same nature.

I am extremely regretful of my actions and am willing to pay however much the fine may be, however, all I am praying for is that I do not get summoned to court or for an interview, or receive a criminal record as this would seriously impact my future career prospects. I recognise that I am deserving of little to no sympathy for my actions, however, if possible I'd like advice on the next steps on what I can expect from Thameslink/Southeastern, the likelihood of me being prosecuted or getting a fine, and a potential estimate for the fine. This has been a stressful experience that I'll never forget and I will never pay for a short ticket again so would be more than happy to accept any fine issued to me.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

 

[Gloster]

I suggest that you obscure the reference number and the officer’s number on the image.

 

[junkrat74]

I suggest that you obscure the reference number and the officer’s number on the image.

Thank you, reuploaded and redacted

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

To be clear you didn't forget to purchase a ticket at Wiveslfield, you've been deliberately evading your fares, which is a criminal offence. It doesn't really matter but I see Southeastern are dealing with your case - were you challenged onboard the train (in which case I'd expect the case to be dealt with by Govia Thameslink) or at London Bridge (in which case it is staffed by Southeastern so a report from them makes sense). We have seen SE staff assisting GTR and vice-versa in the past.

What happens next is Southeastern will write to you you. The letter normally takes a few weeks to arrive, it can be sooner although it shouldn't take longer than six months. The letter will say that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Southeastern are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) to people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. We cannot guarantee this and they are their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they decide to do so.

An aggravating factor in your case is that you have done this before. Southeastern will be able to search your online ticket purchase history and you will need to be careful how you reply to the letter. You should answer the questions they ask for truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the cost of the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the East Croydon to London Bridge tickets you did purchase. You will also have to deal an administraion fee to cover the cost of Southeastern dealing with the case which is likely to be at least £150 and often more if the case is more complex involving evasion over a longer period of time. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered so you might want to carry out your own research to establish the amount of money you will need to have available.

On a pedantic note you don't want to pay a fine to resolve this. Only a court can impse a fine as a punishemnt upon conviction. What you want to pay is an out of court settlement. Paying a settlement might feel the same as paying a fine but technically it isn't a fine, and you won't have a criminal record as a result of apying a settlement.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@junkrat74. Wekcome. A clarificatory question... Just how many times have you travelled from Wivelsfield into Central London without paying the correct fare for the entire journey?

An Anytime Day Single is currently something like £28.40 just now (and you could well be asked to pay twice this amount for every return journey back to Wivelsfield), so if you've been short-faring for some time, this could soon add up.

Easy enough for the train company's investigation team to determine just how many of times you've short-fared if you've been buying your tickets online, mid-journey, after departing Wivelsfield

 

[junkrat74]

If you are offered a settlement expect to have to pay the cost of the fares avoided at the full Anytime rate with no credit given for the East Croydon to London Bridge tickets you did purchase. You will also have to deal an administraion fee to cover the cost of Southeastern dealing with the case which is likely to be at least £150 and often more if the case is more complex involving evasion over a longer period of time. You will need to be in a position to pay the settlement in full within a few days of it being offered so you might want to carry out your own research to establish the amount of money you will need to have available.

Thank you so much for the advice! I expected it to be hefty so this makes sense, and I'll expect a larger admin fee also.

Wekcome. A clarificatory question... Just how many times have you travelled from Wivelsfield into Central London without paying the correct fare for the entire journey?

An Anytime Day Single is currently something like £28.40 just now (and you could well be asked to pay twice this amount for every return journey back to Wivelsfield), so if you've been short-faring for some time, this could soon add up.

Easy enough for the train company's investigation team to determine just how many of times you've short-fared if you've been buying your tickets online, mid-journey, after departing Wivelsfield

Honestly, I'm not sure, I'd have to count the times individually in my trainline but at a rough guess, at the above calculation iI've probably been going into London 1-2 a week on average since December 2022. However, I would still be happy to pay this plus the admin fee as an out of court settlement if it means that the case goes no further and I am not taken to court.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Honestly, I'm not sure, I'd have to count the times individually in my trainline but at a rough guess, at the above calculation iI've probably been going into London 1-2 a week on average since December 2022. However, I would still be happy to pay this plus the admin fee as an out of court settlement if it means that the case goes no further and I am not taken to court.

If that's the case, you're quite likely to be asked to stump up an amount totalling several thousand pounds, and possibly more. It might be an amount where you need to consider seeking out specialist legal representation.

 

[junkrat74]

If that's the case, you're quite likely to be asked to stump up an amount totalling several thousand pounds, and possibly more. It might be an amount where you need to consider seeking out specialist legal representation.

Thank you for the advice, could I ask what the legal advice would achieve in this case? Would they be able to negotiate a lower amount or would it be a case of them arguing to pursue an out-of-court settlement instead of a fine?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thank you for the advice, could I ask what the legal advice would achieve in this case? Would they be able to negotiate a lower amount or would it be a case of them arguing to pursue an out-of-court settlement instead of a fine?

Possibly a lower total "out of court" settlement amount (which isn't a fine, but might seem like it is). Not guaranteed though and there is, of course, the cost of hiring them. All depends on the total amount at stake.

 

[Hadders]

I think talk of legal representation is premature at this stage. Wait and see what the letter from GTR says, they are normally the most pragmatic train company to deal with them.

 

[ikcdab]

Its difficult to see how a solicitor could argue a significantly lower settlement amount: the railway company hold all the cards and you have nothing to negotiate with. Why would they reduce the amount due? From what you say, the financial outcome is less important to you than avoiding court. That is something a solicitor might be beneficial for. Bear in mind that legal help like this will start in the higher three figure amounts and go up from there.
To be honest, I don't theres much you can do until you get the letter. When you get that, you will know if legal advice would help you or not. In the meantime, it looks as if a penalty of several thousand moght be due, so you could make sure those sort of sums are available to you as you might have to pay it quickly.

 

[junkrat74]

Possibly a lower total "out of court" settlement amount (which isn't a fine, but might seem like it is). Not guaranteed though and there is, of course, the cost of hiring them. All depends on the total amount at stake.

I think talk of legal representation is premature at this stage. Wait and see what the letter from GTR says, they are normally the most pragmatic train company to deal with them.

Thank you both for your responses, I am praying that despite the potentially high figure, they are kind enough to offer me an out-of-court settlement, getting a little paranoid however

Its difficult to see how a solicitor could argue a significantly lower settlement amount: the railway company hold all the cards and you have nothing to negotiate with. Why would they reduce the amount due? From what you say, the financial outcome is less important to you than avoiding court. That is something a solicitor might be beneficial for. Bear in mind that legal help like this will start in the higher three figure amounts and go up from there.
To be honest, I don't theres much you can do until you get the letter. When you get that, you will know if legal advice would help you or not. In the meantime, it looks as if a penalty of several thousand moght be due, so you could make sure those sort of sums are available to you as you might have to pay it quickly.

Thank you, yes despite the lump sum likely being significant, I am more than happy to find a way to make it work if it means avoiding court. It looks as if I must play the waiting game until I hear from them...

 

[furlong]

Its difficult to see how a solicitor could argue a significantly lower settlement amount: the railway company hold all the cards and you have nothing to negotiate with. Why would they reduce the amount due?

Because we've seen Southeastern ask for more than it's entitled to several times in threads on this forum, and only reduce the amount when challenged? Using a solicitor can assist in challenging a train company seeming to be asking for more than a court might be expected to award it.

If you've paid the correct fare between East Croydon and London Bridge and the train stopped at those stations, then there's no basis at all for asking for that fare to be paid a second time.

If you were buying returns between those stations there's an argument that says the amount due should be based on returns from Wivelsfield to East Croydon. If you were buying singles, then it should be based on singles (which adds up to more than returns). There's a further argument that it should be based merely on the difference in the fares for the complete journey, as being the actual loss to the railway.

When you see how much they are asking for in compensation, then you can decide what to do.

 

[island]

Because we've seen Southeastern ask for more than it's entitled to several times in threads on this forum, and only reduce the amount when challenged?

I do not believe this is true. Other train companies yes, but not Southeastern.

 

[ikcdab]

If you've paid the correct fare between East Croydon and London Bridge and the train stopped at those stations, then there's no basis at all for asking for that fare to be paid a second time.

That makes no sense to me. We know that in cases of short faring (which this is) then there is no discount given for what the passenger has already paid.
What is different in this case?

 

[Camsus]

Despite their obvious wrongdoing, to me it seems unfair that the poster travelled between Wivelsfield and London exclusively on GTR services, yet was stopped and questioned at London Bridge by a Southeastern revenue officer and will now be subject to paying them a settlement calculated using anytime single fares, as opposed to paying one to GTR, who generally appear to calculate them in a fairer manner.

Could be seen as profiteering from a rail company who had zero loss, yet the actual rail company who suffered the loss of fares will receive nothing. Strange system.

 

[island]

Since all profits of GTR and Southeastern wind up with the Treasury I don’t think anything turns on this.

 

[Greyman1]

Sit back try to relax and wait for the letter. They will gather your purchase history from whatever platform you used, will calculate your fares owed and send it to you.

 

[ikcdab]

Despite their obvious wrongdoing, to me it seems unfair that the poster travelled between Wivelsfield and London exclusively on GTR services, yet was stopped and questioned at London Bridge by a Southeastern revenue officer and will now be subject to paying them a settlement calculated using anytime single fares, as opposed to paying one to GTR, who generally appear to calculate them in a fairer manner.

Could be seen as profiteering from a rail company who had zero loss, yet the actual rail company who suffered the loss of fares will receive nothing. Strange system

In what way do GTR calculate penalties in a fairer manner?
I think that when it appears to be a one-off mistake then some discretion might be applied, but when you have long-term and deliberate fare evasion, then no.

 

[WesternLancer]

As others say it may be best to wait at this stage before involving solicitors at a cost to you - but since you ask, a couple of firms that get mentioned on this forum from people who say they have found their service helpful in expediting settlements are

Manak Solicitors

Manak Solicitors | Sevenoaks, Orpington, Gravesend and London

Manak Solicitors: Your trusted legal experts for Family Law, Immigration, Conveyancing, Wills & Probate, and Employment Law. Experience professional, bespoke services.

manaksolicitors.co.uk

Penman Sedgwick Solicitors

Fare Evasion - Penman Sedgwick

penmansedgwick.com

I have no connection with these firms nor have ever used them, but no doubt you could search the forum for examples if you want to compare any cases with your own situation.

I guess you could get quotes in case you needed their services

 

[Titfield]

Despite their obvious wrongdoing, to me it seems unfair that the poster travelled between Wivelsfield and London exclusively on GTR services, yet was stopped and questioned at London Bridge by a Southeastern revenue officer and will now be subject to paying them a settlement calculated using anytime single fares, as opposed to paying one to GTR, who generally appear to calculate them in a fairer manner.

Could be seen as profiteering from a rail company who had zero loss, yet the actual rail company who suffered the loss of fares will receive nothing. Strange system.

There are settlement systems between TOCS for all manner of financial issues e.g. revenue apportionment so I anticipate there is something similar for administrative settlements etc etc.

 

[Camsus]

Since all profits of GTR and Southeastern wind up with the Treasury I don’t think anything turns on this.

That's true

There are settlement systems between TOCS for all manner of financial issues e.g. revenue apportionment so I anticipate there is something similar for administrative settlements etc etc.

You would think so, but trust me when I say there isn't

In what way do GTR calculate penalties in a fairer manner?
I think that when it appears to be a one-off mistake then some discretion might be applied, but when you have long-term and deliberate fare evasion, then no.

There are multiple posts on here stating GTR use return fares, including off-peak where appropriate. They also deduct any fares that have been paid by the offender. As far as I have read on this forum, Southeastern appear to use single fares only and I'm not sure they take into account any fares that were paid.

If that is indeed the case, the offender is being more heavily penalised by a rail company that incurred zero loss of revenue

 

[Hadders]

Train companies have reciprocal arrangements with each other when it comes to this sort of thing. The fact that Southeastern are dealing with the case is not unusual, there will be other cases where GTR deal with a case where a passenger has travelled with Southeastern. From a train company point of view these things tend to even out over a period of time.

While I am aware that some train companies use off-peak fares or the difference in fares when calculating a settlement amount I will not reply on this when giving advice. My view is it is better to say what the worst case scenario is likely to be, rather than give someone the impression that they need to pay a lesser amount and then have to pay more than they were expecting.

 

[sasha987521]

Hello all, story time from stupid old me. Today I was caught using a short ticket for a journey. I live in a small town in the southeast, the closest station being Wivelsfield, which has no barriers. I work in London so a few times a week I get the train from Wivelsfield to London Bridge. However, since there are no barriers I have gotten into the bad habit of forgetting to buy a ticket when I get on the train, and only buying a return from East Croydon to London Bridge (1 stop). In a panic, when questioned initially I stated that the station I came from was East Croydon, however, upon being pressed by the guard I gave my actual address in Burgess Hill and admitted I had a short ticket for the journey. The guard was making lots of notes and issued me with the receipt which is pictured below, which I believe is an MG11 witness statement.

I know I am very stupid for not paying the full price of my ticket and that I have no excuse, the only reason I have is that I wanted to save money. Despite being stressed about the price of train tickets, the stress about money is because of trying to save rather than survive, so again is no excuse. Moreover, having looked at my history, I'm worried they will look at my trainline purchases and see that that I have done it more than once, which I understand to be a serious issue and fully appreciate the gravity of this situation.

Since the incident happened today I have yet to receive a letter, however gave my number to the guard, I'm not sure if they have my email address. The guard didn't go through my phone to see whether I has previous tickets of the same nature.

I am extremely regretful of my actions and am willing to pay however much the fine may be, however, all I am praying for is that I do not get summoned to court or for an interview, or receive a criminal record as this would seriously impact my future career prospects. I recognise that I am deserving of little to no sympathy for my actions, however, if possible I'd like advice on the next steps on what I can expect from Thameslink/Southeastern, the likelihood of me being prosecuted or getting a fine, and a potential estimate for the fine. This has been a stressful experience that I'll never forget and I will never pay for a short ticket again so would be more than happy to accept any fine issued to me.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

let me know how this goes i'm in a similar situation

 

[skyhigh]

let me know how this goes i'm in a similar situation

Please start your own thread if you're looking for advice so that you can get help relevant to your situation.