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Longer Lumos

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Fyldeboy

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It seems Lumo's ECML loadings are very good and the company is profitable a year into service.

One woulkd assume they are looking for more paths, does anyone know if they have the stock on order for extra paths?

Also, any rumours about extending sets to increase capacity/sales? Rather than doubling up, I'd be inclined to go to 7 car sets as a bettercost/risk ratio.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Also, any rumours about extending sets to increase capacity/sales? Rather than doubling up, I'd be inclined to go to 7 car sets as a bettercost/risk ratio.

There just happen to be some 7-car 80x being built which the intended operator, also a FirstGroup company, isn't likely to need for a good while... :)
 

TheBigD

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It seems Lumo's ECML loadings are very good and the company is profitable a year into service.

One woulkd assume they are looking for more paths, does anyone know if they have the stock on order for extra paths?

Also, any rumours about extending sets to increase capacity/sales? Rather than doubling up, I'd be inclined to go to 7 car sets as a bettercost/risk ratio.

Are the existing Lumo services full or overcrowded? Would be interesting to see the load tactors for each service, though I doubt they would ever be publicly available. There certainly doesn't seem to be much online about Lumo overcrowding. The main complaint seems to be how long it takes the trolley to get through the train, and the lack of luggage space.

As for paths, are there extra paths available on the ECML? Probably early morning northbound and late evening southbound but not a lot during the day. One of the things that came out of the deferred May 2022 ECML consultation was a veiw that all service aspirations couldn't be accommodated.
 

swt_passenger

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It seems Lumo's ECML loadings are very good and the company is profitable a year into service.

One woulkd assume they are looking for more paths, does anyone know if they have the stock on order for extra paths?
[…]
Their total number of paths were determined a few years ago in combination with all the other ECML operators. AIUI they all add up to 1.5 tph at Kings Cross for OA and 6.5 tph for the main TOC. So I don’t think they can add significantly more services, as they have to fit in at the south of the route with Hull Trains and the two GC routes.
 

TheBigD

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Their total number of paths were determined a few years ago in combination with all the other ECML operators. AIUI they all add up to 1.5 tph at Kings Cross for OA and 6.5 tph for the main TOC. So I don’t think they can add significantly more services, as they have to fit in at the south of the route with Hull Trains and the two GC routes.
There aren't many hours when 8 long distance ECML paths* (6.5 LNER, 1.5 HT/GC/LUMO) run from King's Cross.

In the deferred May 2022 timetable it was just 6 LNER paths per hour. And if the open access operators only run outside the peaks, 1.5 paths per hour is not sufficient for the 5 x Lumo, 10 x Grand Central, and 7 x Hull Trains, unless some are moved to before or after the peaks, or some of Grand Central's service double up and split at Doncaster for Bradford and Sunderland, with the performance risk that brings.

I'm pretty sure that at least 1 Modern Railways article has mentioned that there aren't enough paths to meet all aspirations.

* by my reckoning, only twice currently.
1030, 1033, 1045*, 1056*, 1100, 1103, 1106, 1127* & 1430, 1433, 1448*, 1456*, 1500, 1503, 1506 ,1525. (*open access)
The various May 2022 consultations did not show the open access operators.
 
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Fyldeboy

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Reports are that the Lumo services are well loaded without detracting from LNER, possibly succeeding to a degree in their target alternate markets, coach and air.

I agree that the likelyhood of more paths in the near future is remote, hence my thoughts about longer trains - more sales opportunities per path.

Having such good loadings in year 1, any business would at least look at increasing revenue.
 

Halifaxlad

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There is a very good article about Lumo in the October 19th -1st November issue of RAIL magazine, issue 968 which explains pretty much everything you need to know about current issues with running more trains and why they are looking at extending trains.

Interestingly they have agreed to have 400 seats on every service with a limited number of seats for walk ons.

Additional and longer carriages are mentioned as a possibility and so is doubling up 5 car sets.

Personally I would quite like to see them extended to 286m or 312m which is about 11/12 car trains, although Morpeth can only fit 9 without having to use ASDO.
 

Bletchleyite

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Personally I would quite like to see them extended to 286m or 312m which is about 11/12 car trains, although Morpeth can only fit 9 without having to use ASDO.

The most practical thing for them to do is probably to obtain more 5-car sets and double up on busier trains. They may even be able to do that more dynamically (as e.g. Nat Ex do with coach duplicates) given that most people book in advance for their services.
 

Trainbike46

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Or they could place an order for more coaches with hitachi and extend existing trains, which has the advantage of not requiring more staff
 

Trainbike46

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But much less flexibility.

That said, they should be able to yield-manage filling all the seats in a 9 car on most of their services.
yeah that's true. But the busy services are probably reasonably predictable, and as you say can be combined with yield management.

I suspect they'll look at both options (extending or more sets to allow doubling up) and pick whichever ends up cheaper
 

Halifaxlad

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The most practical thing for them to do is probably to obtain more 5-car sets and double up on busier trains. They may even be able to do that more dynamically (as e.g. Nat Ex do with coach duplicates) given that most people book in advance for their services.

Ordering identical units won't solve the issues of luggage space!

Obviously you could tweak the design but then you would end up having two different types of unit.

Additional carriages into the existing fleet designed to accommodate more luggage would be much better, also it would retain the same staffing levels.
 

thaitransit

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Make it reservation required on all services and a total ban on any standing passengers even during disruptions. I certainly would like to know exactly what seat I will be sitting in at the time of booking and will be extremely pissed off if I found such long distance trains full of standing passengers!

If a train is cancelled either move passengers to later services with spare seats or put them on road coaches to make up for missing train. No one wants a train replacement bus. but having to stand for 8 hours on a train to Scotland no way when one could sit back on a bus in that time.

Longer trains is what is needed to handle the demand and give some room if passengers need to move to other trains. As for luggage issues install more large luggage racks at car ends. otherwise introduce a checked luggage service in a baggage car.
 

Snow1964

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There is probably a stronger case for extending to 6 or 7 car (assuming transformer can cope with extra motor bogie if required) than doubling up units.

Of course adding extra coaches means don’t need to be same, if adding 2 coaches, will 1 toilet do etc. They don’t even need to be next to each other if say wanted a composite near one end, and a vehicle with extra luggage space near other end. Or even add luggage racks to every existing vehicle and reuse the removed rows of seats as part of extra car

As cross country and GWR have discovered, doubled up units are harder to staff, do you double up on ticket inspections, catering etc, or leave part of train unserved. Not a new problem, the Southern railway discovered this with 6PAN units in 1933 and next mainline sets 4COR and 4RES had one catering vehicle accessible by whole train.
 

Trainbike46

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Make it reservation required on all services and a total ban on any standing passengers even during disruptions. I certainly would like to know exactly what seat I will be sitting in at the time of booking and will be extremely pissed off if I found such long distance trains full of standing passengers!

If a train is cancelled either move passengers to later services with spare seats or put them on road coaches to make up for missing train. No one wants a train replacement bus. but having to stand for 8 hours on a train to Scotland no way when one could sit back on a bus in that time.

Longer trains is what is needed to handle the demand and give some room if passengers need to move to other trains. As for luggage issues install more large luggage racks at car ends. otherwise introduce a checked luggage service in a baggage car.
Have you used Lumo, or LNER or any British train? They do tend to try to spread passengers across different services in case of disruption, and prioritise those that have more spare seats. Making reservations compulsory does not improve the service, the opposite is true, frankly.

Train travel along the lumo corridor (london-Edinburgh) is around 4-5 hours by rail, but at least 8 hours by coach, so moving passengers to coaches is a terrible idea.
 

Bletchleyite

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Make it reservation required on all services and a total ban on any standing passengers even during disruptions. I certainly would like to know exactly what seat I will be sitting in at the time of booking and will be extremely pissed off if I found such long distance trains full of standing passengers!

I, me, mine.

If a train is cancelled either move passengers to later services with spare seats or put them on road coaches to make up for missing train. No one wants a train replacement bus. but having to stand for 8 hours on a train to Scotland no way when one could sit back on a bus in that time.

If someone wants to use a bus, there's normally seats free on Megabus, Flix or NatEx, and if you refund your Lumo ticket you'll probably end up with money spare.
 

thaitransit

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Have you used Lumo, or LNER or any British train? They do tend to try to spread passengers across different services in case of disruption, and prioritise those that have more spare seats. Making reservations compulsory does not improve the service, the opposite is true, frankly.

Train travel along the lumo corridor (london-Edinburgh) is around 4-5 hours by rail, but at least 8 hours by coach, so moving passengers to coaches is a terrible idea.

There is zero chance of me standing on a long distance train for 4 hours let alone 8. 8 hours by bus really isn't that bad unless overnight! Compulsory reservations means the train company knows exactly how many people need to be moved to other services and if buses are required at all. without reservations they just won't know how many people are effected.

In my home city long distance trains often get end to end bus replacement for cancellation or trackwork. The classic example is the Brisbane to Cairns route Direct train is 25 hours the bus replacement is over 36 hours. I take the option of travel another day than suffer that.
 

Bletchleyite

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In my home city long distance trains often get end to end bus replacement for cancellation or trackwork. The classic example is the Brisbane to Cairns route Direct train is 25 hours the bus replacement is over 36 hours. I take the option of travel another day than suffer that.

Which shows why Asia (generally) is another world. You're talking a 4 hour journey, not one taking over a day.
 

thaitransit

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Which shows why Asia (generally) is another world. You're talking a 4 hour journey, not one taking over a day.
Thats true being from Australia its extremely hard to understand how the distances are so much shorter especially in Europe. A 4 hour train trip is short distance train eg Brisbane to Bundaberg. its the kind of trip one would do for a day trip. However there are only 2 services a day on this route. The Cairns route is 5 times weekly so you don't want to miss it!
 

D6130

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They don’t even need to be next to each other if say wanted a composite near one end, and a vehicle with extra luggage space near other end.
Composite? I thought Lumo was all standard class?
Which shows why Asia (generally) is another world. You're talking a 4 hour journey, not one taking over a day.
Err....Brisbane and Cairns are in Australia - not Asia!
 
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Trainbike46

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There is zero chance of me standing on a long distance train for 4 hours let alone 8. 8 hours by bus really isn't that bad unless overnight! Compulsory reservations means the train company knows exactly how many people need to be moved to other services and if buses are required at all. without reservations they just won't know how many people are effected.
If you don't want to risk standing, reserve a seat! Most passengers do, and it is easy and free.

If there is standing on a long-distance service, like london-Edinburgh, this is rarely for the whole route as seats tend to become available at intermediate stops from people leaving the service
In my home city long distance trains often get end to end bus replacement for cancellation or trackwork. The classic example is the Brisbane to Cairns route Direct train is 25 hours the bus replacement is over 36 hours. I take the option of travel another day than suffer that.
I would not take a 36 hour bus either unless truly unavoidable. But journeys that long do not exist in the UK. Standing for a 4 hour journey, would to many able-bodied people like myself, be preferable to being bustituted all the way london-edinburgh. your proposal would not improve the situation

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thats true being from Australia its extremely hard to understand how the distances are so much shorter especially in Europe. A 4 hour train trip is short distance train eg Brisbane to Bundaberg. its the kind of trip one would do for a day trip. However there are only 2 services a day on this route. The Cairns route is 5 times weekly so you don't want to miss it!
How is this relevant to Lumo expanding capacity?
 

DanNCL

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If the paths were available (which they aren't) Lumo could probably run a 10 car train every hour and still fill them. It's an incredibly popular service with the general public.
 

Bletchleyite

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If the paths were available (which they aren't) Lumo could probably run a 10 car train every hour and still fill them. It's an incredibly popular service with the general public.

Indeed. These budget services seem to be going well generally - LNR isn't quite the same thing but it's also pulling in the punters.

Of course they could do 10 car in the current paths...
 

Hadders

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Make it reservation required on all services and a total ban on any standing passengers even during disruptions.
I’m afraid that just wouldn’t work, especially when there is disruption.

What would you do with passengers who miss a connection mid journey through no fault of their own and end up stranded mid-journey on a day where there are no more seat reservations available. Don’t say buses - you could never have buses on standby for every eventuality.
 

Chiltern006

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is extending to 10 cars a possibility? they run a tight schedule as it is, and i’ve come up with this, what i believe is how they organise units

5 units
10 TPD
4 circuits
KGX- Kings Cross
EDB- Edinburgh

Circuit 1
1S91 0545 KGX-EDB
1E84 1119 EDB-KGX
1S99 2027 KGX-EDB

Circuit 2
1E80 0623 EDB-KGX
1S95 1218 KGX-EDB

Circuit 3
1S93 1045 KGX-EDB
1E86 1613 EDB-KGX

Circuit 4
1E82 0911 EDB-KGX
1S97 1448 KGX-EDB
1E88 1958 EDB-KGX
 

JonathanH

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For me, the logical move is to hire in the spare 802 from Hull Trains and use that to augment the busiest pair of services on popular days (or provide cover for using all five 803s). No other extra rolling stock needed.
 
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