Longest Heritage Railway extension

[deaftech]

I find it interesting that in the discussion over the ideal length for a Heritage Railway, no mention appears to have been made of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. This is the most popular heritage railway in the country, in terms of the number of passengers carried, and is also the longest when the Grosmont - Whitby running is included.

This would seem to indicate that for heritage railways, "Big is beautiful". Of course, there is a place for the "boutique" small railway but I often wonder when I hear the "Jeremiahs" decrying plans for the extension of a railway, whether they have actually been involved in saving or extending a heritage railway. If the "economic" arguments some of these pessimists ruled the day, we simply would not have any heritage railways.

There is also sometimes an implication by these types, that the prime purpose and market for a heritage railway is to provide yet another entertainment for young children and hence should be short to allow for their short attention span. In fact child revenue is usually a small part of revenue. Retired people are a major sector as well as general tourists. The longer railway, such as the NYMR, can provide for all groups. A full day out for those who want it as well as the shorter trip for young ones.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Just have a look at which lines are having particular problems at present.

 

[paul1609]

Just have a look at which lines are having particular problems at present.

Id like to think Im pretty switched on as far as Heritage Railway matters go. Id say that they are all having to make adjustments and its not yet apparent to the public anyway where the real problems are. By this time next year it will be far more apparent.

 

[Titfield]

I find it interesting that in the discussion over the ideal length for a Heritage Railway, no mention appears to have been made of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. This is the most popular heritage railway in the country, in terms of the number of passengers carried, and is also the longest when the Grosmont - Whitby running is included.

This would seem to indicate that for heritage railways, "Big is beautiful". Of course, there is a place for the "boutique" small railway but I often wonder when I hear the "Jeremiahs" decrying plans for the extension of a railway, whether they have actually been involved in saving or extending a heritage railway. If the "economic" arguments some of these pessimists ruled the day, we simply would not have any heritage railways.

There is also sometimes an implication by these types, that the prime purpose and market for a heritage railway is to provide yet another entertainment for young children and hence should be short to allow for their short attention span. In fact child revenue is usually a small part of revenue. Retired people are a major sector as well as general tourists. The longer railway, such as the NYMR, can provide for all groups. A full day out for those who want it as well as the shorter trip for young ones.

I have the greatest admiration for NYMR but they have been recipients of a huge amount of largesse - both directly and indirectly - which has been of the utmost importance in their survival. I wonder if they are the exception that proves the rule.

The two most important customer groups are retireds (or kids have flown) and young families. They have their own needs and it is important that heritage railways can meet those sometime differing needs seemlessly and to the standards now expected as a matter of routine.

What is changing is that the supply of volunteers is diminishing - yes there are new volunteers coming forward but they are not as willing or able to work the number of shifts their predecessors did. It wasn't uncommon to have volunteers work 5 days a week for an entire season. Regulatory compliance, safety management systems, safe ways of working have become the highest priorities of heritage railways (and rightly so) but in doing so they seem to have taken some of the enjoyment out of volunteering and serve if not to discourage at least temper enthusiasm from time to time. As the ORR and HMRI become more concerned as to compliance, heritage railways are compelled to become more professional and that not unsurprisingly pushes up costs. These all serve to put Heritage Railways under more pressure and sadly it seems to me inevitable that some will go to the wall. Whether wealthy benefactors can be found to acts as white knights - in the same way that football clubs have been rescued - remains to be seen.

This summer may prove to be a watershed. Time will tell but overall I fear that those heritage railways who have flirted with disaster before may now find they cant scrape through.

I do not consider myself to be a jeremiah but simply someone closely involved with transport and travel businesses for his working life who has a reasonable ability to read the runes.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just have a look at which lines are having particular problems at present.

Which ones? Is there any commonality?

 

[Flying Phil]

I would have thought that the fact that some railways are expanding and, as yet, no railways appear to be contracting, would indicate that despite all the undoubted problems, Heritage railways are still in reasonable health.
Given the size of the sector, and its maturity, there will however be the odd, inevitable loser, for whatever reason (usually management related).

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Which ones? Is there any commonality?

Largely but not entirely the longer ones have suffered particularly. Those which were brisker in emerging from lockdown predictably enough here fared better. At least one has had it's best ever results post Covid

 

[deaftech]

Id like to think Im pretty switched on as far as Heritage Railway matters go. Id say that they are all having to make adjustments and its not yet apparent to the public anyway where the real problems are. By this time next year it will be far more apparent.

I have the greatest admiration for NYMR but they have been recipients of a huge amount of largesse - both directly and indirectly - which has been of the utmost importance in their survival. I wonder if they are the exception that proves the rule.

The two most important customer groups are retireds (or kids have flown) and young families. They have their own needs and it is important that heritage railways can meet those sometime differing needs seemlessly and to the standards now expected as a matter of routine.

What is changing is that the supply of volunteers is diminishing - yes there are new volunteers coming forward but they are not as willing or able to work the number of shifts their predecessors did. It wasn't uncommon to have volunteers work 5 days a week for an entire season. Regulatory compliance, safety management systems, safe ways of working have become the highest priorities of heritage railways (and rightly so) but in doing so they seem to have taken some of the enjoyment out of volunteering and serve if not to discourage at least temper enthusiasm from time to time. As the ORR and HMRI become more concerned as to compliance, heritage railways are compelled to become more professional and that not unsurprisingly pushes up costs. These all serve to put Heritage Railways under more pressure and sadly it seems to me inevitable that some will go to the wall. Whether wealthy benefactors can be found to acts as white knights - in the same way that football clubs have been rescued - remains to be seen.

This summer may prove to be a watershed. Time will tell but overall I fear that those heritage railways who have flirted with disaster before may now find they cant scrape through.

I do not consider myself to be a jeremiah but simply someone closely involved with transport and travel businesses for his working life who has a reasonable ability to read the runes.

Yes, I largely agree with your analysis. However there is one factor that you have not mentioned and that is the cost of living crisis. This is hitting families in particular. At least the retired sector is partially protected by such things as the "triple lock". In addition, there are the residual effects of the Covid shut downs.

I well remember Paul Lewin at an HRA meeting not long after the WHR reached Portmadog, saying that if you own an ice cream van, you should not buy a second one until your first one was working at capacity. i.e. don't run more trains than you have passengers offering for. In particular, he had a go at one big railway which he considered was running too many trains. I notice that this railway has cut its cloth considerably, as have others.

Time will tell just how well activities that depend on discretionary spending survive the current economic crisis.

 

[railfan99]

Largely but not entirely the longer ones have suffered particularly. Those which were brisker in emerging from lockdown predictably enough here fared better. At least one has had it's best ever results post Covid

Can you elaborate on the latter point?

Are you referring to Severn Valley Railway?

 

[Sunil_P]

Yes but how many of those without a car will then use national rail to get to East Grinstead to visit the Bluebell? I am sure I have read somewhere that the numbers of visitors using National Rail to get to EG to visit the Bluebell has been disappointingly low. Likewise the number of visitors to the Swanage Railway using national rail to get to Wareham is annecdotally low. Swanage railway are very reticent about announcing numbers which usually can only have one meaning.

I used national rail to reach EG in 2015, and yesterday used national rail to reach Wareham

 

[railfan99]

I used national rail to reach EG in 2015, and yesterday used national rail to reach Wareham

I hope to shortly use National Rail to travel to East Grinstead for the Bluebell Railway (if no strikes), but realise most patrons drive.

 

[37114]

I find it interesting that in the discussion over the ideal length for a Heritage Railway, no mention appears to have been made of the North Yorkshire Moors Railway. This is the most popular heritage railway in the country, in terms of the number of passengers carried, and is also the longest when the Grosmont - Whitby running is included.

This would seem to indicate that for heritage railways, "Big is beautiful". Of course, there is a place for the "boutique" small railway but I often wonder when I hear the "Jeremiahs" decrying plans for the extension of a railway, whether they have actually been involved in saving or extending a heritage railway. If the "economic" arguments some of these pessimists ruled the day, we simply would not have any heritage railways.

There is also sometimes an implication by these types, that the prime purpose and market for a heritage railway is to provide yet another entertainment for young children and hence should be short to allow for their short attention span. In fact child revenue is usually a small part of revenue. Retired people are a major sector as well as general tourists. The longer railway, such as the NYMR, can provide for all groups. A full day out for those who want it as well as the shorter trip for young ones.

I think the NYMR is pretty special as it appeals to a broad church of customers thanks to its location, stunning scenery, amazing gradients supported by strong marketing that goes beyond the enthusiast fraternity. Length is only part of the equation but I think it can be classed as a line that thrives despite its length not because of it.

I always thought the GWSR was at its best length when it went Toddington to Cheltenham Racecourse as while I enjoy the trip to Broadway it does feel a long time on one train and there isn't a lot to do at CR particularly

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Can you elaborate on the latter point?

Are you referring to Severn Valley Railway?

Forgive me if I am not specific about which line has had a lucrative period since Covid to spare the feelings of those that have suffered. You will have to take my word I am afraid. The Severn Valley has been commendably frank.

Perhaps the best way for you in Australia is to see which organisation is putting out special appeals. Many are not.

 

[Titfield]

I used national rail to reach EG in 2015, and yesterday used national rail to reach Wareham

Good to hear but the inevitable response because many who frequent these forums are pro public transport and use it whenever they can.

The reality is that heritage rail enthusiasts are actually quite a small market when compared to others.

 

[railfan99]

... is to see which organisation is putting out special appeals. Many are not.

Fair enough, but with c.174 heritage railways/tramways in the UK, it's a Herculean task.

I exclude the company run one at Dartmouth (I did it years ago) as it's not a true volunteering railway in my humble opinion. Similatly I exclude the Isle of Man (again, travelled year ago on it) and Isle of Wight (have been there, but haven't done that preserved line).

I'll assume you're discussing a 'prominent' railway and work from there.

Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, North Norfolk Railway and South Devon Railway are three merely requesting 'support' but that do not appear to be running a special appeal. I have read the accounts of these three: the first two could probably be described as having very sound finances. I visited NNR in October 2022 and even on a weekday (during 'off peak' way past your summer) patronage was good, though mainly from Holt not Sheringham. K&WVR is likely to have had a very good 2022 IIRC from reading a release or two, perhaps benefiting as it's only eight kilometres long and famous for 'The Railway Children', so after the second film iteration was released, many may have wnted to patronise it.

Bodmin and Wreford Railway is a fourth just asking generally for 'support.'

I am a shareholder of West Somerset Railway but it's usually got its hand out and has had financial problems, so it's not "the" one.

Some have rather limited 'special appeals' such as North Yorkshire Moors Railway, Bluebell Railway and Spa Valley Railway with respectively a Dame Vera Lynn appeal, one for Horsted Keynes railway station restoration and to restore loco 'Jinty', but on your criteria, it isn't "the" answer. Nor is the Battlefield line, which has an appeal via a raffle. And Ecclesbourne Railway that I also travelled on last year has an appeal for its terminus' station building.

Scotland's Strathspey Railway has a low-key appeal for a running shed, so can be excluded. Thanks to a strike day that saw 'CS' terminatin g at Edinburgh I had to abandon an October 2022 visit.

Similarly, East Lancs Railway that I enjoyed last year has some sort of appeal.

(I hope to travel on Bluebell, B&WR, K&ESR, K&WVR, SDR, SVR (as in 'Spa Valley' as I did SVR years ago, as well as then doing NYMR) plus the one near Skipton shortly.

So all things considered, my guess is K&WVR.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Also rather prone to over-romantism I fear.

Actually, by"missing out" Paignton and Dartmouth plus IOWSR you have avoided experiencing two of the lines which have coped most successfully with the aftermath of Covid. They are about as different from one another as can be imagined!

 

[paul1609]

Fair enough, but with c.174 heritage railways/tramways in the UK, it's a Herculean task.

I exclude the company run one at Dartmouth (I did it years ago) as it's not a true volunteering railway in my humble opinion. Similatly I exclude the Isle of Man (again, travelled year ago on it) and Isle of Wight (have been there, but haven't done that preserved line).

I'll assume you're discussing a 'prominent' railway and work from there.

Keighley and Worth Valley Railway, North Norfolk Railway and South Devon Railway are three merely requesting 'support' but that do not appear to be running a special appeal. I have read the accounts of these three: the first two could probably be described as having very sound finances. I visited NNR in October 2022 and even on a weekday (during 'off peak' way past your summer) patronage was good, though mainly from Holt not Sheringham. K&WVR is likely to have had a very good 2022 IIRC from reading a release or two, perhaps benefiting as it's only eight kilometres long and famous for 'The Railway Children', so after the second film iteration was released, many may have wnted to patronise it.

Bodmin and Wreford Railway is a fourth just asking generally for 'support.'

I am a shareholder of West Somerset Railway but it's usually got its hand out and has had financial problems, so it's not "the" one.

Some have rather limited 'special appeals' such as North Yorkshire Moors Railway, Bluebell Railway and Spa Valley Railway with respectively a Dame Vera Lynn appeal, one for Horsted Keynes railway station restoration and to restore loco 'Jinty', but on your criteria, it isn't "the" answer. Nor is the Battlefield line, which has an appeal via a raffle. And Ecclesbourne Railway that I also travelled on last year has an appeal for its terminus' station building.

Scotland's Strathspey Railway has a low-key appeal for a running shed, so can be excluded. Thanks to a strike day that saw 'CS' terminatin g at Edinburgh I had to abandon an October 2022 visit.

Similarly, East Lancs Railway that I enjoyed last year has some sort of appeal.

(I hope to travel on Bluebell, B&WR, K&ESR, K&WVR, SDR, SVR (as in 'Spa Valley' as I did SVR years ago, as well as then doing NYMR) plus the one near Skipton shortly.

So all things considered, my guess is K&WVR.

Its actually far more complicated than that, you've identified the "company run" factor but in reality it isn't black and white its differing shades of grey and most railways are some sort of hybrid set-up.
Ownership of the infrastructure is also a factor some railways are defacto only operating companies on public owned infrastructure. In some cases this means that the local authorities contribute significantly to the infrastructure costs although this isn't always clear.
Geographical Location in the UK is a big factor as to what public support you can expect to get in the way of grant funding.
I could go on...

Forgive me if I am not specific about which line has had a lucrative period since Covid to spare the feelings of those that have suffered. You will have to take my word I am afraid. The Severn Valley has been commendably frank.

Perhaps the best way for you in Australia is to see which organisation is putting out special appeals. Many are not.

Ill leave this link here https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/20220518163352.pdf the 2022 accounts aren't yet in the public domain.

 

[Heathen]

I used national rail to reach EG in 2015, and yesterday used national rail to reach Wareham

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

Good Grief!

 

[duffield]

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

Can't seem to find the Mid Sussex Times article online, but I did find this site which has detailed plans for the proposed extension.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

Is this a completely new or just a revised proposal? Seems to have been announced almost a year ago, and was previously discussed here... (See link below).

Bluebell extension to Haywards Heath via Ardingly

An announcement by the bluebell Railway dated 9th September says that they have a plan for extending from Horsted keynes to Ardingly (bypassing the aggregates depot) to achieve connection at Haywards Heath. https://consultations.tetratecheurope.com/consultations/bluebell-railway/ Bluebell...

www.railforums.co.uk

Can't seem to find the Mid Sussex Times article online, but I did find this site which has detailed plans for the proposed extension.

Noted the requested response date is from 2022.

 

[Heathen]

Apologies but having problems loading the text. Can be accessed via the Sussex Express website/ Mid Sussex Planning Applications. Application is dated August 23

Is this a completely new or just a revised proposal? Seems to have been announced almost a year ago, and was previously discussed here... (See link below).

Bluebell extension to Haywards Heath via Ardingly

An announcement by the bluebell Railway dated 9th September says that they have a plan for extending from Horsted keynes to Ardingly (bypassing the aggregates depot) to achieve connection at Haywards Heath. https://consultations.tetratecheurope.com/consultations/bluebell-railway/ Bluebell...

www.railforums.co.uk

Noted the requested response date is from 2022.

 

[railfan99]

Ill leave this link here https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/20220518163352.pdf the 2022 accounts aren't yet in the public domain.

Most impressive for 2021, although would it not do as well now given the 'staycation (not my favourite word) factor' has become less prominent as UK folk flock to the likes of Spain?

Yes, impossible for me to know all ins and outs of local Councils' and other authorities' historic line access/maintenance/renewals funding and in-kind assistance.

I'm sorry to hear geographical location may be a major determinant of 'who receives what', even if that's how politics in the West usually operates (marginal electorates receive more funding, non-government-held ones far less). I am looking forward to staying shortly in what foreigners like me regard as the stunning heritage twin towns of Shipley/Saltaire to facilitate travel on preserved railways from near Skipton, and at Keighley. In your geographical terms, neither is close to 'the good folk of London town' as one John Barry Humphries would have called it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...I was wondering which was the current longest extension to a Heritage railway running length that was likely to happen in the next 2-5 years?

Have we now conclusively established where this might actually be, within the timescale stipulated by the OP?

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

Most impressive for 2021, although would it not do as well now given the 'staycation (not my favourite word) factor' has become less prominent as UK folk flock to the likes of Spain?

Yes, impossible for me to know all ins and outs of local Councils' and other authorities' historic line access/maintenance/renewals funding and in-kind assistance.

I'm sorry to hear geographical location may be a major determinant of 'who receives what', even if that's how politics in the West usually operates (marginal electorates receive more funding, non-government-held ones far less). I am looking forward to staying shortly in what foreigners like me regard as the stunning heritage twin towns of Shipley/Saltaire to facilitate travel on preserved railways from near Skipton, and at Keighley. In your geographical terms, neither is close to 'the good folk of London town' as one John Barry Humphries would have called it.

2022 was actually slightly better and so far this year has been similar. There are others who have recovered from lockdown

 

[deaftech]

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

Personally, I would love to see the third rail re-instated and heritage emus used.

 

[zwk500]

The Mid Sussex Times this week notes a planning application by the Bluebell to re-open the former branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath by connecting to the existing freight line at Ardingly and involving construction of a new under bridge and a short tunnel. Always been a long term aim.

And, AIUI remains very much a long term aim. The latest news accessible to non-members on the website suggests that they would be nowhere near funding such an extension in the near future without considerable external sources.
As mentioned in the linked thread, this application is presumably to remind everybody not to do anything that might actively block them from eventually achieving it.

IIRC there is a condition on the station car park to leave room for an extra platform if they ever make it that far. The principle of co-operation on the same formation is well-established for the Spa Valley at Eridge, so Ardingly to Copyhold Junction has a solution. The BRPS own all (or nearly all) of the formation to the NR boundary at Ardingly, and have bridge decks in stock to reinstate the former rail-over-road bridge just west of Horsted Keynes, so the remaining technical challenges are the condition of the Tunnel (which BRPS have been able to maintain so shouldn't be any big surprises), and how the BRPS operates between Copyhold Jn and Haywards Heath. That last point may well have several different answers depending on the service they want to operate.
In a way there are many similarities to the proposals for the Spa Valley to get first into the proper Tunbridge Wells West and then maybe get a mainline connection through the tunnel. Yes there are major challenges, but there are also proven solutions to most of them.

Personally, I would love to see the third rail re-instated and heritage emus used.

See the discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ication-will-it-ever-become-a-reality.252391/.

 

[Paul Hitchcock]

There is never any shortage of over romanticised "wouldn't it be nice" ideas. The extension to East Grinstead is not a particularly promising precedent.

 

[zwk500]

There is never any shortage of over romanticised "wouldn't it be nice" ideas. The extension to East Grinstead is not a particularly promising precedent.

I've seen statements for both sides of this from both inside and outside of the BRPS. Are there any numbers (financial or passenger) available in the public domain?

 

[deaftech]

See the discussion here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ication-will-it-ever-become-a-reality.252391/.

Thanks for the link.