Longest unchanging departure slot in the hour?

[nw1]

Looking at some old timetables it struck me just how long the prime Waterloo-Weymouth service has essentially remained in the same slot, approximately, each hour. From the old timetables I have access to, it has departed Waterloo between xx30-xx35 (admittedly not every hour in earlier days) since the steam era; at least 1963. It was xx30 in later steam days, remained xx30 on electrification, and seems to have remained between xx30 and xx35 since.

Any other examples of similarly unchanging time slots in each hour (or alternate hour)?

 

[MontyP]

xx:00 from Kings Cross to Edinburgh? Admittedly not hourly every year, but going back a long way there has been at least a 10:00 departure.

 

[Magdalia]

Down Anglo-Scottish expresses departing Kings Cross on the hour.

Down Norwich expresses departing Liverpool Street on the half hour.

Both of these go back to at least the early 1950s, probably further.

 

[Taunton]

It's difficult to go too far back for regular hourly services, because they only really came along from the 1960s onwards. The (old) GWR/WR had standardised departure times in each hour, though not every hour, from Paddngton for express services, but those have long changed.

The main morning train from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, whether called the Flying Scotsman or not, seems to have left at 10.00 for at least 100 years.

 

[Magdalia]

Liverpool Street-Norwich hourly at xx30 between 0830 and 1930 started in 1959, with a bit more than half of the trains booked for EE Type 4s. Before that the 1430 was missing.

I think the 1959 Liverpool Street-Norwich service is generally recognised as the prototype hourly interval long distance service on British Railways.

 

[Iskra]

Have any named services retained their slot for an exceptionally long time?

 

[Magdalia]

Have any named services retained their slot for an exceptionally long time?

Yes, the down Flying Scotsman, see above. Has it ever not departed Kings Cross at 1000?

 

[hexagon789]

Yes, the down Flying Scotsman, see above. Has it ever not departed Kings Cross at 1000?

Yes, several times!

Both of these go back to at least the early 1950s, probably further.

Not really for ECML Anglo-Scottish, given that with the denise of the Coronation and until the Talisman was launched in the 1950s, there were only two year-round daytime London/Edinburgh trains. The afternoon service usually leaving at 2.05pm (this became the Heart of Midlothian in 1951).

It wasn't until the mid-60s a proper two-hourly XX:00 King's Cross-Edinburgh pattern was fixed.

 

[Rescars]

The 10.30 Limited (aka Cornish Riviera Express) left Paddington at 10.30 for at least 40 years, though I don't think it does so any more.

 

[Magdalia]

Not really for ECML Anglo-Scottish, given that with the denise of the Coronation and until the Talisman was launched in the 1950s, there were only two year-round daytime London/Edinburgh trains. The afternoon service usually leaving at 2.05pm (this became the Heart of Midlothian in 1951).

It wasn't until the mid-60s a proper two-hourly XX:00 King's Cross-Edinburgh pattern was fixed.

My winter 1951 timetable has 3 daytime trains to Scotland, the Flying Scotsman at 10am, the Queen of Scots Pullman at noon and the Heart of Midlothian at 2pm. I have many of the 1950s ER PTTs and they all have the Heart of Midlothian leaving on the hour, 2pm until 1956 and 1pm from 1957.

The 10.30 Limited (aka Cornish Riviera Express) left Paddington at 10.30 for at least 40 years, though I don't think it does so any more.

In the 1970s the Cornish Riviera was 1130 from Paddington, when HSTs were first introduced in 1980 it was 1125, and it changed more times in the 1980s.

 

[30907]

There is a recent thread on the Brighton line - the basic pattern (not just the every hour, on the hour Brighton non-stops) remained unchanged for 35 years, though there were additions. Waterloo-Portsmouth at xx50 lasted from 1937 into the 80s IIRC, so longer.

Waterloo to Exeter xx00 departures (not hourly) were pretty much unchanged (like the Bournemouth service mentioned) from the 1920s to 1964.

Similarly, as Taunton has said, the basic GWR/WR pattern (××30 Plymouth, xx55 Cardiff) lasted into the 60s - the Bristol and Oxford routes were never so standardised, curiously.

 

[daodao]

The 10.30 Limited (aka Cornish Riviera Express) left Paddington at 10.30 for at least 40 years, though I don't think it does so any more.

It was the same time for at least 60 years. I have a copy of the April 1910 Bradshaw reprint, which shows it departing at 1030, and I recall it departing at 1030 in August 1970 when I used it to travel to St Ives. The 1946 Bradshaw available on Timetable World also shows it departing at 1030.

The hourly Liverpool Central to Manchester Central fast trains (taking 45 minutes) used to depart at 30 minutes past the hour from both termini, as shown in the April 1910 Bradshaw and in LMR timetables from the 1960s. Even in 1982, when the termini had changed, the departure was at 29 minutes past the hour from Lime Street and 30 minutes past the hour from Oxford Road, with the journey taking 46-47 minutes.

 

[d9009alycidon]

Fairly sure the Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High have stuck to the xx:00 and xx:30 pattern since the introduction of DMUs in the 1950s (with the recent xx:15 & xx:45 additionals). Even in steam days when the service was not clockface, the principle services left on the hour.

 

[nw1]

There is a recent thread on the Brighton line - the basic pattern (not just the every hour, on the hour Brighton non-stops) remained unchanged for 35 years, though there were additions. Waterloo-Portsmouth at xx50 lasted from 1937 into the 80s IIRC, so longer.

Though ISTR (from previous discussions on here, and an old 1972 timetable I used to have) the 'prime' Waterloo-Portsmouth became the xx20 for a while in the early 70s, with the xx50 becoming a semi-fast.

The xx50 (though retimed to xx48 from June 1981 to May 1986 and xx55 from May 1986 to May 1989, but close enough to count) lasted until May 1993 when it shifted to xx15, with several other later changes in the 90s.

So if one accepts the xx50 wasn't the 'prime' service for a few years, 1937-93 would make 56 years.

Waterloo to Exeter xx00 departures (not hourly) were pretty much unchanged (like the Bournemouth service mentioned) from the 1920s to 1964.

Didn't they continue much later than that, until 1980? Was it 'odd alternating hours' all the way from the 1920s?

In the 1970s the Cornish Riviera was 1130 from Paddington, when HSTs were first introduced in 1980 it was 1125, and it changed more times in the 1980s.

I always remember it being 1145, though that was the mid-80s. It was notable as the only one of the hourly services to the South West to skip Reading.

 

[GS250]

Euston to Manchester Piccadilly was usually on the hour when I was growing up. And I believe has been that way for a long time?

 

[Snow1964]

I think that Waterloo-Kingston clockface departures have hardly changed since the line was electrified in 1916, or might have been 1919 once the loop workings (and Hounslow loop) were integrated.

However trains towards Waterloo have changed by minute or two multiple times. And Arrivals at Kingston are embarrassingly slower than 100 years ago in current timetable designed to allow 701s to take over

 

[Sm5]

Slight side track, but I've an October 1946 Southern timetable in front of me, whilst the Epsom Downs to Victoria service is today departs 9 minutes earlier than 1946, (38 vs 49 past the hour, its still every 30 mins).

However despite traveling the same route, stopping at the same stations to Victoria, taking 44 minutes in 1946, (49 past arrives at 33 past), today the journey takes 62 minutes (38 arriving 40 past +1 hour) …

And by comparison,

1946 last train from Victoria to West Croydon was the 2346 arriving at 0016 via Balham//Palace Norwood junction.
2022 last train from Victoria to West Croydon is the 2332 arriving at 0017 also via Balham/Palace/Norwood junction, stopping at the same stations, taking 15 minutes longer than 1946.

 

[nw1]

I think that Waterloo-Kingston clockface departures have hardly changed since the line was electrified in 1916, or might have been 1919 once the loop workings (and Hounslow loop) were integrated.

However trains towards Waterloo have changed by minute or two multiple times. And Arrivals at Kingston are embarrassingly slower than 100 years ago in current timetable designed to allow 701s to take over

Reminds me of Waterloo-Alton in 1967 in which the stopping trains which (I presume, using the CWN here) called at all stations beyond Surbiton and were operated with pre-war BIL units, yet only took about 7 minutes longer than the current service! As said in other threads bad pathing into Woking is the main cause for the current slowness, I believe.

 

[Magdalia]

Euston to Manchester Piccadilly was usually on the hour when I was growing up. And I believe has been that way for a long time?

Euston-Manchester can't compete here because they were almost completely non-existent in the period when Euston was electrified.

I don't know about the first WCML electric timetable, but the 1974 recast for Crewe-Glasgow electrification put the Euston-Manchesters at xx55.

 

[GS250]

Euston-Manchester can't compete here because they were almost completely non-existent in the period when Euston was electrified.

I don't know about the first WCML electric timetable, but the 1974 recast for Crewe-Glasgow electrification put the Euston-Manchesters at xx55.

Yep. I'm probably going back to the late 1980s with my memory. Pretty sure it was Lon-Manc 00, Lon-Bhm 10,40, Lon-Glw 25, Lon-Liv 50.

I suppose this route possibly not a good contender for long term services given the two big changes that have been implemented. Electrification and then the step up to the faster, high frequency timetable.

 

[30907]

(Waterloo-Exeter) Didn't they continue much later than that, until 1980? Was it 'odd alternating hours' all the way from the 1920s?

Not quite, as the last down was 6pm till the mid 50s - and after 1964 (when the ACE was withdrawn!) things varied - departures at xx10 in 1967 with Warships, then xx08, xx05 and eventually back to xx00 to keep time with 33s!

 

[Taunton]

Euston to Manchester Piccadilly was usually on the hour when I was growing up. And I believe has been that way for a long time?

For those of us of slightly lengthier duration on this earth, it wouldn't have been before 1974, because the initial 1966 WCML electrification timetable had the departures from Euston at 00 alternately for Manchester (even hours) and Liverpool (odd). It was only the major recast in 1974 that gave a broadly hourly service to each.

 

[GS250]

What about the Liv St to Kings Lynn's?? Didn't they usually follow the Norwich services by 5 minutes? Albeit at two hourly intervals?

 

[nw1]

Not quite, as the last down was 6pm till the mid 50s - and after 1964 (when the ACE was withdrawn!) things varied - departures at xx10 in 1967 with Warships, then xx08, xx05 and eventually back to xx00 to keep time with 33s!

... and then back to xx10 in 1980, I think, due to the introduction of 50s.

Are you sure about 1967 though? Both the SWD CWN from that year and the old timetable on Timetable World suggest an on-the-hour departure. In the case of the CWN this was post Bournemouth electrification.

The 1800 peak additional seemed to be fairly longstanding.

Oddly the Atlantic Coast Express slot (1100) in 1967 was the only one of the two-hourly pattern to terminate at Salisbury rather than run through to Exeter! Seemed to be because a service from South Hampshire took the Exeter slot at that time of day.

(deleted Manchester comment after seeing it answered up thread)

 

[Magdalia]

What about the Liv St to Kings Lynn's?? Didn't they usually follow the Norwich services by 5 minutes? Albeit at two hourly intervals?

Liverpool Street departures for the Cambridge line, including Kings Lynn, have been very inconsistent compared to the xx30 Norwich departures.

Prior to the 1960 "Chenford" electrification most Cambridge line trains departed at xx24.

From 1960 to 1981 trains were at xx36, then slight adjustments to xx35 and xx32.

When the Stansted Expresses first came in the Cambridge trains were xx08 and xx38. After another revision they are now xx28 and xx58.

In that period there's always been a Norwich train at xx30.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

As said in other threads bad pathing into Woking is the main cause for the current slowness, I believe.

I'm just coming in to this discussion off the cuff as it were, so am unaware of previous comments relating to the Alton's, and as such I do not make any criticism of other's views. I may also be going a bit OT for this thread (sorry), but for the sake of the issue of 'pathing in to Woking (Alton's), I will just add the following.

If talking of pre pandemic times, yes the Alton's did hang around between West Byfleet and Woking, primarily to allow the Down Pompey Fasts to overtake and swing over to p5 (DSL) at Woking, where they departed at xx25/55, the Alton's then following them. The reason I believe the Pompey's were timed down through p5 was simply to ensure that on the half hour that the non stop (at Woking) fast Weymouth's ran, they were given a clear road (as in clear aspects) down through p4, although I may be getting my timetable details mixed up here - sure there are those of you who have the relevant TT's to hand (I do not).
Also seem to remember that if some 'spare' time in the Down Alton's wasn't used up in the Woking area, they would have had to sit for ages at Brookwood due to timetabling conflicts and connectional issues that would cause problems in the Ash Vale to Aldershot area.
Aldershot was always an area of TT conflict, given the nature of taking all services in to account, not only including connections at Ascot/Guildford, and out of/in to Alton line trains (at Aldershot), but critically crossing margins at Aldershot North Junction, and to a lesser extent at Aldershot South Junction (with North Downs services which SW planners could not tinker with in TT terms).

In my past experience of timetabling conflict areas on the SW, Waterloo/throat is the lynch pin in any timetable (overall), but second to that is Woking Junction, and (for the outer sub area) I would wager Aldershot came next in complexity with Guildford in 4th position. To clarify in the pre/a.m. peak period (0530-0730) with numerous empty stock movements leaving Farnham depot, Aldershot to Ash Vale/Aldershot South Junction was a serious headache if one wanted to find additional pathway slots, be it for post weekend engineering associated moves or as was the case with the stock cascades that were required during the capacity increases that saw the 458's increased from four to five cars.

As said, getting too far OT now perhaps.

 

[Taunton]

Oddly the Atlantic Coast Express slot (1100) in 1967 was the only one of the two-hourly pattern to terminate at Salisbury rather than run through to Exeter! Seemed to be because a service from South Hampshire took the Exeter slot at that time of day.

This was the cause of much criticism for several years from south Somerset etc until sorted out, the key traditional departure time of the day (when they were only two-hourly anyway) being tipped out at Salisbury so the once-daily through service from Brighton could run through on the singled lines west of there. In addition, the inbound at Waterloo that formed this 11.00 departure was the most unpunctual of the day, sometimes passengers would be boarded together with those alighting, and the train would depart uncleaned.

 

[nw1]

This was the cause of much criticism for several years from south Somerset etc until sorted out, the key traditional departure time of the day (when they were only two-hourly anyway) being tipped out at Salisbury so the once-daily through service from Brighton could run through on the singled lines west of there. In addition, the inbound at Waterloo that formed this 11.00 departure was the most unpunctual of the day, sometimes passengers would be boarded together with those alighting, and the train would depart uncleaned.

Wonder when the 11.00 reverted to an Exeter? I do know that by the 80s the equivalent 11.10 was an Exeter but presumably it happened some time before that.

 

[30907]

... and then back to xx10 in 1980, I think, due to the introduction of 50s.

Are you sure about 1967 though? Both the SWD CWN from that year and the old timetable on Timetable World suggest an on-the-hour departure. In the case of the CWN this was post Bournemouth electrification.

No, it must have been a couple of years later - see below.

The 1800 peak additional seemed to be fairly longstanding.

Early SR days at a guess! Became a Salisbury terminator (33+8TC).

Oddly the Atlantic Coast Express slot (1100) in 1967 was the only one of the two-hourly pattern to terminate at Salisbury rather than run through to Exeter! Seemed to be because a service from South Hampshire took the Exeter slot at that time of day.

The Brighton-Plymouth was retimed, as Taunton said causing much annoyance (not to mention resentment from ex-SR people). It was withdrawn as a daily service after a couple of years, probably at the same time as the ××10 departure first came in.

 

[hexagon789]

Fairly sure the Glasgow to Edinburgh via Falkirk High have stuck to the xx:00 and xx:30 pattern since the introduction of DMUs in the 1950s (with the recent xx:15 & xx:45 additionals). Even in steam days when the service was not clockface, the principle services left on the hour.

As far back as the 1920s, (I have a 1922 Bradshaw) a number of primary internal services left on the hour in the main. Stopping and through services were more varied. Fastest times were an hour non-stop, mostly about 1h15-1h20. In the same period the Caledonian ran a high-intensity service via Shotts, with a near hourly (but not clockface) interval of services, there were 8 faster services each way with a Pullman Car(!), one each way running non-stop in 65 mins, the prine business services (two each way) making one or two stops taking 75 mins, most other fast services were 90-odd mins and the stopping services much slower.

When the 79xxx Swindow Cars came into service, the frequency was hourly though there were a couple of off-pattern workings. Journey time was an hour, with one or two stops, non-stop was 55 mins.

Things were speeded up in the 1960s with a half-hourly service of a fast calling Falkirk High & Haymarket in 55/56 mins and a stopper via Grahamston. Almost all services had a buffet service.