I dropped my ticket in the train as I hopped out and was too late when I realised the train already left. I had the transaction for the ticket purchase 2 hours before on my phone but when I showed it to the staff they automatically issued me a £103 fine and would not hear me out. It’s incredibly frustrating and I get it’s a byelaw but from peoples experience how likely will an appeal be accepted? I gave them a screenshot of my phone transaction and the exact time and ticket machine for them to check the CCTV to confirm I did buy the ticket. I am a student from Guernsey and gave them my term time address but I will be moving out in under a month so I am very stressed that this appeal will be denied and they will keep issuing the fines to my previous address without it getting forwarded to my Guernsey address and the cost would triple. Should I wait out the appeal process in the risk of it getting denied and me leaving that address or just pay it now due to low likelihood of appeal success. Many thanks in advance.
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Lost my ticket at Merseyrail - appeal likelihood.
- Thread starter shay719
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gray1404
Established Member
Please upload a copy of the penalty fare notice.
Attachments
Welcome to the forum!
This sounds like an unfortunate incident but technically you weren't able to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so, and that is an offence. I recommend paying the Penalty Fare (pedant alert - it isn't a fine, onlya court can impose a fine as a punioshemnt upon conviction). If you pay within 21 days then the amount is reduced to £53.90. Once the Penalty Fare is paid that is the end of the matter.
You can appeal against the Penalty Fare. Ordinarily I would not expect an appel to be successful but an appeal does 'stop the clock' on the 21 days payment period so effectively gives you a bit more time to find the money if that is a problem for you. There might be a technical reason where an appeal might succeed (like deficient signage that doesn't meet the regulations) - I'll leave others to advise on this but an appeal on technical ground is likely to get rejected at the 1st and 2nd stages and only stabd a chance of success at stage 3. If you do appeal there's then the issue of where the outcome of the appeal gets sent...
On balance it might be best to pay the reduced sum within the next 21 days to stop the matter from escalating and chalk it up to experience.
This sounds like an unfortunate incident but technically you weren't able to produce a valid ticket when asked to do so, and that is an offence. I recommend paying the Penalty Fare (pedant alert - it isn't a fine, onlya court can impose a fine as a punioshemnt upon conviction). If you pay within 21 days then the amount is reduced to £53.90. Once the Penalty Fare is paid that is the end of the matter.
You can appeal against the Penalty Fare. Ordinarily I would not expect an appel to be successful but an appeal does 'stop the clock' on the 21 days payment period so effectively gives you a bit more time to find the money if that is a problem for you. There might be a technical reason where an appeal might succeed (like deficient signage that doesn't meet the regulations) - I'll leave others to advise on this but an appeal on technical ground is likely to get rejected at the 1st and 2nd stages and only stabd a chance of success at stage 3. If you do appeal there's then the issue of where the outcome of the appeal gets sent...
On balance it might be best to pay the reduced sum within the next 21 days to stop the matter from escalating and chalk it up to experience.
You must appeal with all the evidence of your ticket. You get 3 chances to appeal and you might have to use all of them. There are no guarantees but it is worth a try and you should also reference the debate in Parliament when the original legislation underpinning Penalty Fares was passed:
What type of ticket was it? (Advance / Off-peak / Peak etc.)
Was the ticket purchased with any sort of railcard - if so, which type?
What type of ticket was it? (Advance / Off-peak / Peak etc.)
Was the ticket purchased with any sort of railcard - if so, which type?
Thank you so much for referencing this debate! And the ticket was a return ticket with Merseyrail using a 16-25 railcard for £2.70.
I have been told that if I leave my Liverpool address back to Guernsey without paying the penalty fare it is my fault if further letters are not responded to and will be fined accordingly. It is an extortionate amount to get a postal redirection out of the UK so I am extremely worried that this is true?
If you do appeal you'll need to be able to access post. In theory you can tell them that you've moved but we're talking about Merseyrail here who are not known for their competence and you'll need to weigh up your appetite to appeal against the potential hassle.
If setting up a postal redirection is going to cost more than paying the Penalty Fare then it might be best to take a pragmatic approach.
If setting up a postal redirection is going to cost more than paying the Penalty Fare then it might be best to take a pragmatic approach.
That part is a bit confusing to us.
Could you clarify:
- How did you make the ticket purchase? Which website or app? Or did you buy it from a ticket machine at St. Michaels using a credit or debit card?
- What did the phone transaction show? Do you mean an online rail website or app purchase confirmation, or something in a banking or credit card app showing the details?
Because you used a railcard you'll need to include a copy of the railcard with your appeal to show it was valid and belonged to you.
I made the ticket purchase through a ticket machine at Liverpool Central. And the phone transaction showed £2.70 coming out of my account from the train station 2 hours before the penalty date was issued.
If the first attempt at an appeal is denied, does anyone have any experience with requesting the CCTV footage from the station where the ticket machine is? I know it seems like a bit of faff for just a fare but I cannot afford to pay the £50 as I am a student struggling as it is and paid for the ticket anyway. It is just so frustrating all this for a lost ticket (losing an item is hardly a rare occurrence) and could be rectified with switching over to an online ticketing system.
Thank you for your responses!
Yes. So I used the first leg ticket Cen-St M and scanned it but on the way back I dropped both tickets inside the train while collecting my stuff. I was imposed the fair in Central station.
Firstly you have to convince them you made the purchase. If there's a transaction reference number given by your bank that helps, but time and card number and amount are other ways to do that.
Secondly you have to convince them the ticket you bought was completely valid for the journeys you made.
After that, you have to *persuade* them that you genuinely lost your ticket and that it would be unfair to charge you the £50 (or £100) penalty. They can still ask you to pay the £3.90 part.
There are no ticket gates at St. Michaels are there? Was there a ticket inspection on the train you used? Was there CCTV anywhere that might have showed the ticket in your hand on the RETURN journey? Do you understand HOW you lost it? Where do you normally keep it and how was that not safe?
When writing this, put yourself in their shoes and ask "Why should they believe me?" and think of reasons you can give. I would mention the hardship of the penalty for a student like you did here.
It is common for the responses to the first two appeals to be very dismissive with standard blocks of text, and only to get what you'd consider a fair hearing on the third and final appeal (which is meant to be decided by people independent of the railway companies).
Secondly you have to convince them the ticket you bought was completely valid for the journeys you made.
After that, you have to *persuade* them that you genuinely lost your ticket and that it would be unfair to charge you the £50 (or £100) penalty. They can still ask you to pay the £3.90 part.
There are no ticket gates at St. Michaels are there? Was there a ticket inspection on the train you used? Was there CCTV anywhere that might have showed the ticket in your hand on the RETURN journey? Do you understand HOW you lost it? Where do you normally keep it and how was that not safe?
When writing this, put yourself in their shoes and ask "Why should they believe me?" and think of reasons you can give. I would mention the hardship of the penalty for a student like you did here.
It is common for the responses to the first two appeals to be very dismissive with standard blocks of text, and only to get what you'd consider a fair hearing on the third and final appeal (which is meant to be decided by people independent of the railway companies).
Thank you thank you thank you! I will give all of this a try and hope that someone on the other side feels nice enough to believe me! You have a GREAT day
When you appeal you need to say you are making the appeal "on the grounds that there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, I believe I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare".
Those words directly engage one of the valid reasons for making an appeal.
Your appeal can be handled entirely online through http://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ - I presume it says that on the paper you were given. That means the postal address is not so important as you can use email and track the state of your appeal on that website.
If the online system limits the number of words you can use and you need more, then use an attachment to get around the limit.
Finally think of alternative scenarios that might be in their minds and without directly mentioning these, try to provide evidence that shows them to be unlikely:
1) You are lying and never bought the ticket or your ticket was invalid for the journey you made
2) You are lying and didn't lose it but gave the ticket to someone else to use - two of you were trying to share a ticket and got caught out
3) You are telling the truth but someone else found your ticket and used it themselves instead of buying their own, so one fare that was owed was still not paid. (This is one reason they may still ask for £3.90 even if they uphold the appeal over the £50/£100 part.)
Those words directly engage one of the valid reasons for making an appeal.
Your appeal can be handled entirely online through http://www.penaltyservices.co.uk/make-an-appeal/ - I presume it says that on the paper you were given. That means the postal address is not so important as you can use email and track the state of your appeal on that website.
If the online system limits the number of words you can use and you need more, then use an attachment to get around the limit.
Finally think of alternative scenarios that might be in their minds and without directly mentioning these, try to provide evidence that shows them to be unlikely:
1) You are lying and never bought the ticket or your ticket was invalid for the journey you made
2) You are lying and didn't lose it but gave the ticket to someone else to use - two of you were trying to share a ticket and got caught out
3) You are telling the truth but someone else found your ticket and used it themselves instead of buying their own, so one fare that was owed was still not paid. (This is one reason they may still ask for £3.90 even if they uphold the appeal over the £50/£100 part.)
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You’re genuinely a star so helpful. Drafting an appeal at 2am with all the adrenaline with the last £20 in my bank! Thanks a million I hope you get some good karma your way.
Good luck and don't forget to include that quote from Hansard, because some of the staff handling the appeal might be so used to rejecting appeals that they aren't aware of what parliament was told was supposed to happen with appeals over lost tickets.
WesternLancer
Established Member
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- 12 Apr 2019
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- 7,235
Whilst I think an Appeal on this is a long shot I can see that you have got good advice on how to make such an Appeal most likely to have a chance of success.
It is vital that you can get paperwork however.
We have seen cases on here where people have Appealed, have not received the response (esp if it is a rejection) for one reason or another and the 1st they have heard about it is that the case has been escalated to court for non payment and Court Bailiffs have found out where they now live and are chasing a court debt. It's vital that you avoid this as the costs of then sorting that out would be more than the £50 Penalty you can now pay.
Similar problem with Appeal results going to spam e-mail.
It's possible however that if you can Appeal on line it maybe that the Appeal response would go by e-mail to you which if so would avoid the issue of changed postal address. Of course watch out for stuff in spam folder.
So good luck with pursuing this.
Thank you so much and have a great day!