West Lothian buses

[overthewater]

Good old Evening news: Some customers are clueless...........

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....H7uvbsRcFOaE4awKVCwrHKgt3Lnvh_2p9C5DrFHVv10xs

* Do you think Edinburgh is already well served with buses? First has continually failed to offer a consistent and timely service. Buses fail to appear, arrive late or just drive on by, despite waiting passengers. Their fleet is also largely decrepit. How they think they can provide any reasonable challenge to Lothian is beyond me. Davie Black

* Nae contest. First are awful, Lothian are tremendous at what they do. Kenneth McMaster

* I would like to understand why City Link buses are using Western Approach Road, and passing two school routes before going on to their routes. Carol Ann Neil

* First are a lot quicker in to the city centre than any of the usual Lothian offerings from my side of the city. The buses aren’t any worse either and 10p cheaper. Aly Bongo

* ‘Bus Wars’, thank god I’m getting out of the Capital soon, it’s just too dangerous now. Cieran Hart

* First have tried before to muscle in and failed miserably – as Lothian Buses say bring it on. The pollution will be coming from First, as their fleet is not as modern I’m sure. Fi Liddle

* Losing money I don’t get First’s decision. They’ve got rid of their depots in the Lothians because they were losing money. Plus they did this in the early 2000s and lost badly. I guess they want to go through that again!

* Losing money I don’t get First’s decision. They’ve got rid of their depots in the Lothians because they were losing money. Plus they did this in the early 2000s and lost badly. I guess they want to go through that again! Robert Fuller Nooo.

* Buses are already causing huge pollution in the centre of town. Nikki MacLeod

* I think the hardest gaffer fi Lothian and hardest gaffer fi First just have a square go. Dale Richard Cummings

* Just no need. The council will have to step in. Far too many buses already in a congested city – just madness! Paul Sayers

* No contest. First made a pig’s ear of East Lothian services. Lothian work well with other companies to form new services (East Coast Buses), consider the customers and run a reliable modern fleet, improve continually and have the friendliest most helpful drivers and staff. Lorna Gatens

* Why can’t First Bus not look at areas not yet met by Lothian? Fairmilehead to Corstorphine directly, Straiton to city via Oxgangs or even to Newtongrange via Oxgangs? Jennifer Dunlop

* To the people who live in West Lothian, we welcome more buses as there simply isn’t enough, and are completely unreliable. First buses never come on time through Kirkliston, no reasons why or they just don’t turn up, but cost an absolute fortune to get on. The ONE Lothian that comes through Kirkliston is every 40 minutes. So bus bosses, stop arguing over territory and just improve the services you already have because they are a joke.West Lothian forgotten about as always; some of us still have an EH postcode, we are still Edinburgh! Natalie Auld

* First buses need to review fares, do further training to ensure staff know the correct fare and not pick a number out of thin air. First definitely need to update overall service. Ann Ferry

* Unless buses are running clean or moving towards electric, how can the council can justify allowing this? If the justification for taking away roads, routes and parking for cars is about curbing pollution when all cars are going towards electric seemingly faster than buses, I don’t buy it. Feels like more ways to monetise the streets by filling them with buses to push out cars, especially if they are only claiming pollution curbing when it is convenient. Why are terrible service, polluting buses allowed to add to the mess on the roads simply for the sake of competition? Alison George Buck

* Terrible that Lothian Buses had to take unprofitable routes from these companies and now they are taking customers from high volume routes that will stop Lothian Buses growing. Paul Krol

* If it it ain’t broke don’t fix it. This is just scaremongering, we have the best bus service we have ever had. Daniel Nicholson

* First buses are rubbish... all profits go to shareholders... stay away with yer rickety buses. Kim Ross

* First bus lost the war ages before Lothian started running out that way. Their buses are awful and constantly breaking down. Robbie Nicolson

* Let’s face it, First bus are a joke. Until they lower fares in rural areas and improve their fleet they have very little chance. When First ran services in East Lothian it was dismally poor. Buses poorly maintained. Their are vintage buses that are more reliable than First. They need to buy new instead of second hand buses and stop patching up the old stock. You hardly ever see a Lothian Buses vehicle or East Coast bus sitting on a road awaiting recovery. Andrew Donaldson

* Bring it on! Some Lothian Bus routes have a terrible service ie 41, which runs every 30-40 mins evenings and Sundays. Horrendous.The No1 evening service is terrible especially when there’s footie on! Single decker buses to deal with fans on a route where there’s no other bus going via Carrick Knowe to Clermiston. Heather Anderson

Read more at: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....H7uvbsRcFOaE4awKVCwrHKgt3Lnvh_2p9C5DrFHVv10xs

 

[overthewater]

There is something to the story, unless ENN are muppets



https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....eets-as-first-squares-up-to-lothian-1-4889775

NEW bus wars look set to break out in the Capital after First West Lothian said it was ready to go toe-to-toe with Lothian buses over services. Lothian launched new Lothian Country routes in West Lothian last summer, mirroring existing routes connecting West Lothian and the Capital.

Now First plans to retaliate by increasing its services and introducing some in Edinburgh. The company is said to be planning a significant investment, including a plethora of buses to provide express services on key corridors within, and surrounding areas of, the city. But Lothian appeared to welcome the move, saying “healthy competition” was good for jobs, demand, innovation and standards.

It will be an echo of the battle between council-owned Lothian buses and First Edinburgh which raged for 18 months around 2001 and led to fare cuts, rival buses fighting for passengers on the busiest routes and large financial losses for both companies. And the prospect of a new conflict sparked warnings that more buses on the city’s roads would add to congestion, making it more difficult for other road-users to get around and increasing pollution.

Andrew Jarvis, managing director for First West Lothian said: “Lothian buses launched a significant competitive operation in West Lothian in August last year and have increased their presence in a further four waves, presumably in an attempt to extend their Edinburgh market dominance. “We increased the number of services and journeys on the 28th of January 2019 and are now reviewing a number of options with regards to increasing our services further, not only in West Lothian, but also in Edinburgh. “We welcome the deregulated bus market and competition in a fair environment, but having operated in West Lothian for over 100 years, we know the market is not large enough to support the current level of provision.”

Neil Greig of motoring group IAM RoadSmart, said another outbreak of bus wars was bad news for everyone. He said: “Based on what happened last time, these competitions tend to end up with a drive to the bottom, with poorer services and aged buses, and doesn’t attract people out of their cars. “It will mean more buses on the roads and more congestion – and also more pollution. If you have three or four buses standing at a stop – and they’re often older buses – it’s going to have an effect on air quality. People usually blame pollution on cars but in city centres it’s almost always down to buses.”

Mark Heritage, general manager of Lothiancountry said: “Since commencing operations in the area last August, we have seen significant customer growth across our network, which is a real testament to our dedicated and motivated workforce who deliver a fantastic customer experience every day. “Healthy competition in the marketplace creates jobs, stimulates demand and drives innovation, whilst ensuring the high standard of customer service that the bus industry is renowned for is maintained.’’ In the summer of 2001, First Edinburgh slashed fares and put on extra services along traditional Lothian buses routes in a bid to win extra passengers.

Timetables were changed and more vehicles moved in as competition intensified on the city’s busiest routes. But concerns were voiced that passengers were suffering because other services were being cut or abandoned altogether as resources were diverted. The bus wars finally came to an end in February 2002 when First announced it was pulling out of several routes where it was in direct competition with Lothian Buses. First Edinburgh accounts later showed an annual loss of £4.4m in the 12 months up to March 2002 when the bus wars were at their height. The losses included an operating loss of £2.2m. Lothian buses also saw a plunge in profits and launched a major restructuring exercise in a bid to survive the bus wars.

The Office of Fair Trading, which regulates consumer protection and commercial activity, carried out an official inquiry after Lothian buses made a 
complaint that First was engaging in anti-competitive behaviour. But First was cleared of any wrong-doing by the OFT. It was concluded its conduct represented legitimate competition. First withdrew its East Lothian services in 2016 and Lothian buses stepped in, launching East Coast Buses as a new subsidiary and taking over the operation of services from Edinburgh as far as Haddington, North Berwick and Dunbar. Lothian Country was launched in 2017 with three routes between Edinburgh and Bathgate, and Edinburgh Park Station and Whitburn, seven days a week, and has since added services to Livingston, Armadale, Broxburn and other West Lothian destinations.

Read more at: https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....eets-as-first-squares-up-to-lothian-1-4889775

 

[In Focus]

Let us just put this "bus wars" into perspective . It won't be a war , first will only target small corridors and possibly the 100 service, however by doing very little and costing very littel First will take more money in Edinburgh than Lothian will recoup in West Lothian after spending Millions to get an operation up and running that at present is not even getting close to covering staff wages never mind the payback on vehicles and cost of these new premises.
Smart move I'd say ,I'm going to guess however others see it differently

 

[overthewater]

No point explaining that, the fanboys will never understand.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Let us just put this "bus wars" into perspective . It won't be a war , first will only target small corridors and possibly the 100 service, however by doing very little and costing very littel First will take more money in Edinburgh than Lothian will recoup in West Lothian after spending Millions to get an operation up and running that at present is not even getting close to covering staff wages never mind the payback on vehicles and cost of these new premises.
Smart move I'd say ,I'm going to guess however others see it differently

It’ll also Depend on there East Coast, LMC and tours business revenue as well.

 

[och aye]

No point explaining that, the fanboys will never understand.

Bus operator fanboys are a thing?!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Let us just put this "bus wars" into perspective . It won't be a war , first will only target small corridors and possibly the 100 service, however by doing very little and costing very littel First will take more money in Edinburgh than Lothian will recoup in West Lothian after spending Millions to get an operation up and running that at present is not even getting close to covering staff wages never mind the payback on vehicles and cost of these new premises.
Smart move I'd say ,I'm going to guess however others see it differently

Its no quiet secret that central scotland is largely not a money making place.

 

[In Focus]

Its no quiet secret that central scotland is largely not a money making place.

Why then would Lothian decide to reinvent 1994 and run vehicles they know are doomed to lose money?

 

[In Focus]

It’ll also Depend on there East Coast, LMC and tours business revenue as well.

I think LMC will have their hands full at the enquiry into undercutting and attempting to put out of business a host a smaller private operators ,trying to justify that should be quite a tale (or very costly).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why then would Lothian decide to reinvent 1994 and run vehicles they know are doomed to lose money?

I think we all realise that Lothian have made this move in that they will lose money in the short term, but with the view that First will vacate the area and they'll recoup that investment in the medium term. Now, were this to be 2012, that would be a reasonable expectation - examples like North Devon being cited already. However, First have shown more determination to fight over recent years so Lothian's move is a little more surprising.

Bus operator fanboys are a thing?!

Indeed they are, and the reverse is also true. Lothian is rightly applauded as a very good operator though sometimes fair criticism can be treated by some with "whataboutery" in that "they're not as bad as X". Then you have the reverse principle whereby some companies (one springs to mind) irrespective of all the good things they do, are continually being criticised by a cadre of enthusiasts - sometimes justly but often not.

In respect of First, we all know the problems and the root cause of their problems. They have limited capital impacted still by a debt pile from their ill-fated Laidlaw purchase that they have to service (despite paying some down and renegotiation of bonds), having blighted the business for years. Hence why there are still too many older vehicles in service and too many mid life vehicles that would really benefit from a refurbishment. There are obviously areas that are benefiting and Glasgow is one of those - the withdrawal of 53 plate deckers is quite a surprise! It's the lack of consistency that is most often cited and probably rightly so - Glasgow is getting all this new fleet, and it's a similar experience in Cornwall - you can travel on a new enviro 400 that is really impressive with lots of promo materials on the cove panels, then change and then you're on a tired and unloved vehicle with knackered seating and an absence of internal advertising, instead having to read various NHS ads about checking your stools for prostate or bowel cancer. However, it is getting better - bit by bit.

 

[winston270twm]

I think we all realise that Lothian have made this move in that they will lose money in the short term, but with the view that First will vacate the area and they'll recoup that investment in the medium term. Now, were this to be 2012, that would be a reasonable expectation - examples like North Devon being cited already. However, First have shown more determination to fight over recent years so Lothian's move is a little more surprising.



Indeed they are, and the reverse is also true. Lothian is rightly applauded as a very good operator though sometimes fair criticism can be treated by some with "whataboutery" in that "they're not as bad as X". Then you have the reverse principle whereby some companies (one springs to mind) irrespective of all the good things they do, are continually being criticised by a cadre of enthusiasts - sometimes justly but often not.

In respect of First, we all know the problems and the root cause of their problems. They have limited capital impacted still by a debt pile from their ill-fated Laidlaw purchase that they have to service (despite paying some down and renegotiation of bonds), having blighted the business for years. Hence why there are still too many older vehicles in service and too many mid life vehicles that would really benefit from a refurbishment. There are obviously areas that are benefiting and Glasgow is one of those - the withdrawal of 53 plate deckers is quite a surprise! It's the lack of consistency that is most often cited and probably rightly so - Glasgow is getting all this new fleet, and it's a similar experience in Cornwall - you can travel on a new enviro 400 that is really impressive with lots of promo materials on the cove panels, then change and then you're on a tired and unloved vehicle with knackered seating and an absence of internal advertising, instead having to read various NHS ads about checking your stools for prostate or bowel cancer. However, it is getting better - bit by bit.

TGW - a well balanced view there from both sides.

I'd forgotten in my previous comments that First SE had also given Lothian a 'taste' of West Lothian, in withdrawing their 43/X43 on top of all the East Lothian ops. How does that route perform now under Lothian Country, in comparison to First ?

 

[scosutsut]

TGW - a well balanced view there from both sides.

I'd forgotten in my previous comments that First SE had also given Lothian a 'taste' of West Lothian, in withdrawing their 43/X43 on top of all the East Lothian ops. How does that route perform now under Lothian Country, in comparison to First ?

Didn't that route pass from First to Stagecoach then to Lothian suggesting it's a hard one to make work?(given the frequency of trains to South Queensferry I can understand why)

 

[In Focus]

Didn't that route pass from First to Stagecoach then to Lothian suggesting it's a hard one to make work?(given the frequency of trains to South Queensferry I can understand why)

You will make it work if you get a helping hand along the way

 

[winston270twm]

Didn't that route pass from First to Stagecoach then to Lothian suggesting it's a hard one to make work?(given the frequency of trains to South Queensferry I can understand why)

Not that I'm aware of, First withdrew & Lothian Country was setup to provide the replacement service.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not that I'm aware of, First withdrew & Lothian Country was setup to provide the replacement service.

Hi there - IIRC, First pulled it and Stagecoach did go in with a replacement service that was operated from Dunfermline depot (with some placement journeys) and then LCB took it on. I suspect "in focus" refers to the helping hand being some bus priority that appeared??

However, it's a different kettle of fish in taking on a marginal service and making it "work" to a speculative and risky incursion with the attendant start up costs etc!

 

[winston270twm]

Hi there - IIRC, First pulled it and Stagecoach did go in with a replacement service that was operated from Dunfermline depot (with some placement journeys) and then LCB took it on. I suspect "in focus" refers to the helping hand being some bus priority that appeared??

However, it's a different kettle of fish in taking on a marginal service and making it "work" to a speculative and risky incursion with the attendant start up costs etc!

Fair play TGW, the Stagecoach operation of it must have passed me by. Any idea how long they operated it for before pulling the plug?

 

[scosutsut]

Fair play TGW, the Stagecoach operation of it must have passed me by. Any idea how long they operated it for before pulling the plug?

Long enough to route brand some Enviros IIRC but not sure of dates.

 

[oldman]

To be precise, Stagecoach announced they were moving in and after a few weeks of overlap, First withdrew (2014). Stagecoach made a mess of it and withdrew (2017). Lothian extracted some fairly minimal priority concessions from the council and introduced a more reliable service:

Some of the measures whcih have now been agreed for implementation include traffic signal prioritisation at Princes Street/Queensferry Street junction and Queensferry Street/Melville Street, a commitment that the existing citybound bus lane is not compromised on approach to Dean Bridge and a review of parking restrictions on key arterial city routes to allow for passing places for buses.

I don't know how marginal it was when First operated it, or how marginal it is now, though they have improved the service since they started it.

 

[overthewater]

Edinburgh city promised new bus priority but it has never appeared stinking liers...

Stagecoach topk over in April 2014 but give up in june 2017. Never operated a 43 instead having a no40 which was superoir.

43 get s lots of extre city passengers unlike stagecoach no40....

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Edinburgh city promised new bus priority but it has never appeared stinking liers...

Stagecoach topk over in April 2014 but give up in june 2017. Never operated a 43 instead having a no40 which was superoir.

43 get s lots of extre city passengers unlike stagecoach no40....

Whether it’s the 40 or 43, it was broadly the same service.

To be precise, Stagecoach announced they were moving in and after a few weeks of overlap, First withdrew (2014). Stagecoach made a mess of it and withdrew (2017). Lothian extracted some fairly minimal priority concessions from the council and introduced a more reliable service.

Thanks for the clarification. Think it’s apparent that First were happy to get rid.

 

[overthewater]

Im sorry but it wasn't broadly the same service. 40 was a circular, and every half hour went via the motorway. Journey times from some parts of the ferry were up to 20mins faster. There has been an increase of people using the stagecoach services from the tolls because of the speed now.

 

[winston270twm]

Thanks for the clarification. Think it’s apparent that First were happy to get rid.

Sounds like an unofficial handover between First & Stagecoach, it seems I've 3 years somewhere.....

 

[In Focus]

Whether it’s the 40 or 43, it was broadly the same service.



Thanks for the clarification. Think it’s apparent that First were happy to get rid.

Once Linlithgow depot closed it became a bit of a white elephant with shuttling back and forth to and from Livingston (shuttle time was near the same as the route ) First looked at having a satellite depot in the old buildings just off Queensferry to Kirkliston road but it never happened .

 

[oldman]

The problem with the Stagecoach version was that running from Dunfermline over the old road bridge it had to be single deck where First and Lothian could use doubles.

To maintain capacity (nearly) without adding to the PVR, they replaced a linear 3/hour service (ABCD and back) with two looping 2/hour services (ABDCA and ACDBA). Some people now had a combined 4/hour, others only 2 or evenings and Sundays 1/hour. Also there was minimal layover at the Queensferry end so outward bound delays became inward bound delays, and the layover at the Edinburgh end was also poor. So sometimes faster but unreliable.

 

[Darklord8899]

Edinburgh to Queensferry has always been a challenge due to
A) busy at peak times, quiet off peak and
B) reliability issues with the Queensferry corridor. Barnton junction and Queensferry road are bottlenecks at best of times during peak times, throw in roadworks, a broken down vehicle or an accident and delays suddenly become hours....

As has been mentioned, First having to switch service from Linlithgow to Livingston was costly and dead runs were about as long time wise as the route was. Also the 43 was essentially the bus equivilant of a branch line...it didn't fit into any other first network or have any useful connections to other First services.

Stagecoach did try to change up things with the circle route in Queensferry, but again closest depot being Dunfermline (which isn't that handy) and had the old bridge issues to contend with as well If the bridge was closed to buses, it's a long way round via Kincardine or Stagecoach needed somewhere to store buses this side of Forth, increasing operating costs further.
(IIRC during a spell of bridge closure didn't Stagecoach have to base 9 vehicles at Longstone??)

Lothian has the benefit of a central depot and while cash fares are more expensive with the West zone, Ridacards are valid to/from Queensferry and valid on city zones a&b as well, big plus for passengers needing to get to other parts of Edinburgh.... something First/Stagecoach could never compete with.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Im sorry but it wasn't broadly the same service. 40 was a circular, and every half hour went via the motorway. Journey times from some parts of the ferry were up to 20mins faster. There has been an increase of people using the stagecoach services from the tolls because of the speed now.

In that it served SQ to Edinburgh is what I meant.

 

[VioletEclipse]

I wonder if they will integrate Lothian Country and East Coast Buses into one large subsidiary and call it all 'Lothian Country'. It would be a bit less confusing with liveries and fare zones that way IMO.

 

[Darklord8899]

I wonder if they will integrate Lothian Country and East Coast Buses into one large subsidiary and call it all 'Lothian Country'. It would be a bit less confusing with liveries and fare zones that way IMO.

.... na, they will call it "Lothian in Scotland" once they start trying to push First out of Central Scotland and Glasgow and Stagecoach from Fife

 

[In Focus]

I wonder if they will integrate Lothian Country and East Coast Buses into one large subsidiary and call it all 'Lothian Country'. It would be a bit less confusing with liveries and fare zones that way IMO.

Speaking of these 2 subsidiaries will their drivers go on strike along with Lothians drivers should this action escalate or will they continue to work and undermine their Lothian colleagues ?

 

[VioletEclipse]

.... na, they will call it "Lothian in Scotland" once they start trying to push First out of Central Scotland and Glasgow and Stagecoach from Fife

I hope it doesn't ever get that big