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Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

ScotRail158725

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581/2/4/5 are all in convoy to Livingston. 586 may or may not be as well.
Whats the PVR of Lothian Country after the timetable change? With all of 571-590 there it could be the end for the Ex London B9s at Lothian country if the PVR is any less than 30 ish
 
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computerSaysNo

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Whats the PVR of Lothian Country after the timetable change? With all of 571-590 there it could be the end for the Ex London B9s at Lothian country if the PVR is any less than 30 ish
Someone worked it out above, they'd be 8 short if I remember correctly. I had thought about the East Coast Buses B5s transferring as there are 8 of them but then there would be none left for contingency and maintenance.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Whats the PVR of Lothian Country after the timetable change? With all of 571-590 there it could be the end for the Ex London B9s at Lothian country if the PVR is any less than 30 ish
Likely number should be between 35 and 40 which would allow for Lothian Country vehicles to be repainted too.

I can’t see a scenario where the Eclipse2s stay at LC, and it’s likely the 09 plates and possibly some of the ex Londons will go as well; the latter possibly to East Coast Buses.
 

scosutsut

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I think some of the massive fleet movements being imagined between LCB and ECB seem unlikely.

The ECB fleet seems settled and B5LHs seem to be a no no so I'd expect all the B5LHs are for LCB to modernise the fleet profile.

At LCB I'd see the oldest B9s and active B7RLEs the likely surplus once the whole repaint exercise is completed. Maybe go full decker - ex London B9 & ex Skylink B5LH operation - if the remaining routes justify it?

The only West to East movement I could see making any sense would be shifting some of the refurbished / Euro 6'd 13 plate Eclipses to ECB to replace the lower spec 10195-99 IF ECB timetables increased and they needed more again (The X7 is crying out for a major frequency increase hence I think this is a possibility.)

The surplus B9s and B7RLEs across all fleets could then be disposed of.

Obviously these are my own thoughts and not based on any insider knowledge.
 

Bus9120UK

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At LCB I'd see the oldest B9s and active B7RLEs the likely surplus once the whole repaint exercise is completed. Maybe go full decker - ex London B9 & ex Skylink B5LH operation - if the remaining routes justify it?
The routes require 28 at PVR (Peak Vehicle Requirement) and all ex-londons & hybrids would be 44 buses. Removing four from that fleet, should ECB get four buses, would allow their 09s to be disposed, that will go down to 40. Perhaps 2 of these buses could be repaint cover to allow 2 buses away at a time, reducing the figure to 38. That's still quite a lot I would say, although with how often buses get switched out it may work out. I should mention none of this stuff is confirmed to be the plan so what happens in reality could be nothing like what i've mentioned above. Could some ex-Londons go to city, maybe? I'm sure all will become apparent within the next month or two.

The surplus B9s and B7RLEs across all fleets could then be disposed of.
I agree, the B7RLEs will see no use at LC after these changes. I think the preference of many would be to use at least 10 of the B7RLEs at city and dispose of 1-10, to be honest! 176-190 are slightly newer and have a higher capacity I believe. I do think they'll reserve a lot of them, like 201-215, because what occurs in the future is still unknown.
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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The routes require 28 at PVR (Peak vehicle requirement) and all ex-Londons & hybrids would be 44 buses. Removing four from that fleet should ECB get four buses to allow their 09s to be disposed, that will go down to 40. Perhaps 2 of these buses could be repaint cover to allow 2 buses away at a time, reducing the figure to 38. That's still quite a lot I would say, although with how often buses get switched out it may work out. I should mention none of this stuff is confirmed to be the plan so what happens in reality could be nothing like what i've mentioned above. Could some ex-Londons go to city, maybe? I'm sure all will become apparent within the next month or two.


I agree, the B7RLEs will see no use at LC after these changes. I think the preference of many would be to use at least 10 of the B7RLEs at city and dispose of 1-10, to be honest! 176-190 are slightly newer and have a higher capacity I believe. I do think they'll reserve a lot of them, like 201-215, because what occurs in the future is still unknown.
Yes I agree, I still think whatever moves it’ll likely end up with 176-190 moved to reserve and all the remaining 09 plates gone.
 
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The Eclipse 2's that will come to ECB will have to replace 195-199 as they seem to have no use in the fleet with their lesser specced vehicles.
 

Bus9120UK

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Would there be any particular reason Lothian's tracking systems continue to display "Estimated" buses, even though most of the time nothing turns up due to the driver shortage? I've seen increased numbers of complaints as a result of this, mainly people calling them "ghost buses". Is there something which stops this system being disabled? It's not good that these estimated times continue to display when nothing will turn up, only causing inconvenience with passengers and a negative view on Lothian. With the topic of trackers, has there been any progress regarding the new 4g AVL systems which were mentioned a while back?
 
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There are some in Musselburgh and they're shocking, and they don't update after 9:00PM. Not sure when they start up again and they sometimes switch colours and it's annoying. Not sure if these are the AVL Systems though.

There are other things as well and sometimes they don't update/freeze during the day!
 

Darklord8899

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Would there be any particular reason Lothian's tracking systems continue to display "Estimated" buses, even though most of the time nothing turns up due to the driver shortage? I've seen increased numbers of complaints as a result of this, mainly people calling them "ghost buses". Is there something which stops this system being disabled? It's not good that these estimated times continue to display when nothing will turn up, only causing inconvenience with passengers and a negative view on Lothian. With the topic of trackers, has there been any progress regarding the new 4g AVL systems which were mentioned a while back?

Estimated buses are shown based on timetable information, rather than actual location of the bus.
I have known estimated buses to show up, presumably due to:
No working tracker in the vehicle,
No working vehicle WiFi connection,
Faulty tracker

There do seem to be some issues with the technology and with 'estimated arrival time' screens on the buses themselves.

I was on a Clovenstone bound 3 the other day that was showing odd EAT's:


Shandwick Place 14:10
Haymarket 14:10
Balgreen Road 14:07
Parkhead Terr 14:22

So clearly something needs to be looked at, but not a critical operational issue.
To be perfectly honest, given the driver shortage and state of the roads with traffic or road works, I'm amazed that Lothian manage to get buses moving anywhere.
 
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eh1

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I can also add that the "600" fleet (E400 B5TLs) won't track (and come up as a timetabled time) unless they have been "signed on" via control through a radio call. This means that they won't always track if running, however generally drivers are good at signing them on and untracked boards get chased up.
 

eh1

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That's because they're yet to be installed with Lothian's tracker thing, sure they'll be added soon.
Yes, also means we run off running boards and the 8 or so timing points a route. Can be harder to judge how early/late you're running, especially when there is 20 minutes plus between some.
 

Auld reekie

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Would there be any particular reason Lothian's tracking systems continue to display "Estimated" buses, even though most of the time nothing turns up due to the driver shortage? I've seen increased numbers of complaints as a result of this, mainly people calling them "ghost buses". Is there something which stops this system being disabled? It's not good that these estimated times continue to display when nothing will turn up, only causing inconvenience with passengers and a negative view on Lothian. With the topic of trackers, has there been any progress regarding the new 4g AVL systems which were mentioned a while back?
Ale you’ve mentioned tracker I get this quite often on the tracker.
 

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Blindtraveler

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Roll on the new equipment I say. The other major issue at the moment that I and doubtless others, including drivers I'm sure, complain about is the constant early termination and turning round of buses due to late running etcetera. Whilst the council continues to dig up large portions of the city this is not entirely within Lothian's control and it is frustrating when you're either waiting for a bus at the extreme end of a route where several have been spun round or, if like the other day, you're travelling on a journey that should have involved one change and instead involved 4 as both services I was on subject to to this.
 
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Roll on the new equipment I say. The other major issue at the moment that I and doubtless others, including drivers I'm sure, complain about is the constant early termination and turning round of buses due to late running etcetera. Whilst the council continues to dig up large portions of the city this is not entirely within Lothian's control and it is frustrating when you're either waiting for a bus at the extreme end of a route where several have been spun round or, if like the other day, you're travelling on a journey that should have involved one change and instead involved 4 as both services I was on subject to to this.
I know it's a very drastic example but you could use Lizzies death as an example, lots of buses terminated at Tollcross. I know there was no doubt that was going to happen but it still did. The tram works don't help either and that's Lothian's Fault. There are also lots of diversions across the city because of the A1, e.g. Portobello, Leith, Sherrifhall etc.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Just a heads up to those that rely on live tracking data to be way a few things. The tracker is really struggling today, presumably with the clock change. It’s frequently going blank or freezing for a good while. This is also impacting websites that rely on the TfE feed such as LVF.io, Visual Edinburgh and bustimes.org.

On a side note for iOS users - If you use the TfE app be wary that the timetable page is set to be an hour too early. It’s been changed from GMT +1 to GMT -1 rather than from GMT +1 to GMT 0.

So if the TfE App on iOS’ timetable says a bus is due at 16:30, that’s actually the 17:30 bus etc. The times of live departures appears to be unaffected and looks like it’s working fine, albeit with the feed issues I mentioned before.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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589 now on its way to Livingston, think we can definitely say now all 12 are for LC
So far 579-582, 584-586 and 589 have transferred to Livingston.

583 and 587 both remain at Ferrymill but should be complete by now so I’d expect them to return to Edinburgh soon.

588 and 590 are more or less done at Seafield but will likely head to Marine for a bit before heading back to Seafield and then onto Livingston soon after.

Nothing has left Livingston (yet), but to be fair I’d only expect buses to start departing when these B5LH’s enter service; which may very well not be until the service changes at the end of the month.

As @Bus9120UK said previously 578 is also away at Ferrymill and it would seem like that is more than likely going green and white too. In addition to this 577 hasn’t been out for nearly two weeks so it’s possible that it too could be off to Seafield shortly.

The other buses at Ferrymill for repaint are 496, 950 and quite likely also 936. The only bus at Seafield that is thought to be being prepped for repaint at the minute is 562 which I would expect to depart for Ferrymill this week.
 

Bus9120UK

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Lothian have now confirmed they will also be changing fare zones in West Lothian.

New Zones: (Click for larger view)
1667232195394.png
Compared to previous:
1667232228422.png

Clear change is the addition of zone between West of East Calder & border of existing country WEST a zone.
Travelling in two or three zones will cost the same, and journeys between four+ zones will be £1 cheaper. However, journeys from e.g. Edinburgh to Whitburn will cost the same due to the added zone.
Journeys from Edinburgh city zone to the new country WEST a zone will be £1 cheaper.
Journeys from East Calder, Calderwood and Kirknewton to Livingston increase to £2.80 according to the article. Journeys from Whitburn to Bathgate & Armadale have also increased to £2.80. For such a short distance, is it worth paying that extra £1?
 
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stevenedin

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Lothian have now confirmed they will also be changing fare zones in West Lothian.

New Zones: (Click for larger view)
View attachment 122914
Compared to previous:
View attachment 122915

Clear change is the addition of zone between West of East Calder & border of existing country WEST a zone.
Travelling in two or three zones will cost the same, and journeys between four+ zones will be £1 cheaper. However, journeys from e.g. Edinburgh to Whitburn will cost the same due to the added zone.
Journeys from Edinburgh city zone to the new country WEST a zone will be £1 cheaper.
Journeys from East Calder, Calderwood and Kirknewton to Livingston increase to £2.80 according to the article. Journeys from Whitburn to Bathgate & Armadale have also increased to £2.80. For such a short distance, is it worth paying that extra £1?
I’m assuming that Edinburgh to Livingston will rise from £1.80 to £2.80 for ridacard holders and from £3.80 to £4.80 for non ridacard holders?
 

Bus9120UK

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I’m assuming that Edinburgh to Livingston will rise from £1.80 to £2.80 for ridacard holders and from £3.80 to £4.80 for non ridacard holders?
Edinburgh to Livingston remains £3.80 for non-ridacard holders. Although they will travel through an extra zone, since going through 2 & 3 zones will now cost the same amount (£2.80) travelling through 4/5/6 will cost the same as how much it would've to travel across 3/4/5 zones previously.

Yes I think you are right that they will have to pay £2.80 for Ridacard Holders, should the new countrywest zone A not accept them.
 
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mb88

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I’m assuming that Edinburgh to Livingston will rise from £1.80 to £2.80 for ridacard holders and from £3.80 to £4.80 for non ridacard holders?
There will presumably be a reduction in the Ridacard fare for those travelling to Broxburn/Uphall and Kirknewton/East Calder as it’s currently £1.80 vs £3.80 for non Ridacard holders.
 
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I think they should've made it cheaper with McGill's competition. I hope there isn't too much outrage, obviously there will be complaints.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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That’s 581, 584 and 586 entering service today. I think there’s a chance a few more might make it out today as well.

573 and 574 have moved to Seafield already and I think there’s a pretty high chance that the remaining green and cream B5LH’s will follow.

The tracker issues are still ongoing, but it is only affecting a much smaller number of buses now.
 

ScotRail158725

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That’s 581, 584 and 586 entering service today. I think there’s a chance a few more might make it out today as well.

573 and 574 have moved to Seafield already and I think there’s a pretty high chance that the remaining green and cream B5LH’s will follow.

The tracker issues are still ongoing, but it is only affecting a much smaller number of buses now.
Neither 926 or 927 have been out since saturday, seems it was just a case of waiting for 496 and 497
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Neither 926 or 927 have been out since saturday, seems it was just a case of waiting for 496 and 497
496 is still at Ferrymill so I don’t think these are done (if they are going) just yet. Can’t be long if that is the case though.

Speaking of the 09 plates I’m intrigued as to why 930 has returned to Livingston but has failed to re-enter service; it went back a few weeks ago, especially given the fact 579-590 have joined the fleet.
 

ScotRail158725

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496 is still at Ferrymill so I don’t think these are done (if they are going) just yet. Can’t be long if that is the case though.
There's surely enough slack in the fleet that they can be a bus down for a week or two. They don’t need a direct replacement.

573 and 574 have moved to Seafield already and I think there’s a pretty high chance that the remaining green and cream B5LH’s will follow.
576 now on its way to Seafield as well.
 
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