Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I understand the point you are making but you do realise Wallyford has the train as well

I do. They’re not the same though.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Last 113 to Edinburgh passes through Tranent at 23:30 so there’s still services late at night

Forgot about the 113 to be fair.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

As part of this review, there will be further harmonisation of products in East and West Lothian to continue the simplification of our ticketing portfolio.

Do you think this is their way of saying that Ridacards are further valid in East and West Lothian?

 

[Ian Cunningham]

The X4 should be running direct to Wallyford. They’ve made a mistake in not having the local links maintained in a local capacity. Prestonpans doesn’t need an A1 bus to town as it has the train.

The train is only hourly at rather uneven intervals, only runs to Waverley and costs more than twice as much. Yes it's better for a lot of folk but the 124 is busy which suggests a faster X4 along Top Pans could be popular

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Mar 2025 ==

Oh you better no tell that to Porty residents, the X26 can make quite a difference to the regular 26 at peak times. Escpescially folk who remember the X15 and X24 also serving Porty likely won't be happy if the X26 was also to go.

The X26 is significantly faster in the morning. From Musselburgh it can easily pass 2-3 normal 26s on the way in. I remember the complaints when the 124 shifted over to Milton road and they lost their quick bus into town (especially one of my pals who lost his door-to-door bus to the Lyceum, not that I wound him up about the improved service from Muss!)

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

The train is only hourly at rather uneven intervals, only runs to Waverley and costs more than twice as much. Yes it's better for a lot of folk but the 124 is busy which suggests a faster X4 along Top Pans could be popular

Flip side though is Tranent with no train service now has a much slower bus to the city. The X5 could’ve been improved to serve Prestonpans if this was a necessity. Indeed historically the old First X5 did this.

 

[Avenger20]

These changes are a massive step back for connectivity in East Lothian. It's such a shame to see as ECB have been making improvements across the board for near to ten years and I feel like this change alone undoes that.

Prestonpans is now divided with no bus from top to bottom, the Prentice offering doesn't particularly replace what has been lost. Macmerry and Gladsmuir have suffered the same fate as Rosewell and are now cut off from Edinburgh save for the peak time X6 runs. Tranent loses its fast, direct service to Edinburgh, the X4 will be too slow end to end compared with the current X6. Wallyford's East End loses frequency to Tranent as well as fast, direct services to Edinburgh as a result of X4 serving top Pans. The loss of the direct link to WGH will be felt across the east of Edinburgh and Musselburgh.

There has been no improvement in frequency, no improvement in connectivity - rather a downgrade, and no improvement in the provision of early morning or late evening services.

Finally, to make us all feel better about these changes to our services we have to pay more for them - on top of our 10% council tax hike.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Flip side though is Tranent with no train service now has a much slower bus to the city. The X5 could’ve been improved to serve Prestonpans if this was a necessity. Indeed historically the old First X5 did this.

I think the kicker would of been the link between Prestonpans and Tranent if the X5 was chosen to be rerouted via Prestonpans as a sacrafice, i did suggest that the 106 could of filled the gap but with the cuts in Wallyford and QMU campus, it's clear that the service already has enough issues, so the X4 seems to be the best bet it seems, honestly though, would it of done any harm if the 26 stayed in Tranent and they moved their resources to other services instead of introducing a replacement?

These changes are a massive step back for connectivity in East Lothian. It's such a shame to see as ECB have been making improvements across the board for near to ten years and I feel like this change alone undoes that.

Prestonpans is now divided with no bus from top to bottom, the Prentice offering doesn't particularly replace what has been lost. Macmerry and Gladsmuir have suffered the same fate as Rosewell and are now cut off from Edinburgh save for the peak time X6 runs. Tranent loses its fast, direct service to Edinburgh, the X4 will be too slow end to end compared with the current X6. Wallyford's East End loses frequency to Tranent as well as fast, direct services to Edinburgh as a result of X4 serving top Pans. The loss of the direct link to WGH will be felt across the east of Edinburgh and Musselburgh.

There has been no improvement in frequency, no improvement in connectivity - rather a downgrade, and no improvement in the provision of early morning or late evening services.

Finally, to make us all feel better about these changes to our services we have to pay more for them - on top of our 10% council tax hike.

It feels like a kick in the teeth to be honest, the Wallyford services confuse me now as i have no clue what goes via the Village and what down Masons Way, i suppose at the end of the day as long as the link is still there, slow or not.

I did mention this issue about Macmerry further up in the forum and how folk would uproar about it, and shockingly i was right.

I can sense an Edinburgh Evening News arcticle about these controversal changes coming.

 

[ScotRail158725]

really? When was that and how profitable was it compared to the big city operations elsewhere.

it was around 2016/17 not long before Lothian Country came into West Lothian. You cant really compare it to the big cities First are the main hand in like Glasgow Leeds and Bristol those are all big profit turners and consistently are

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

These changes are a massive step back for connectivity in East Lothian. It's such a shame to see as ECB have been making improvements across the board for near to ten years and I feel like this change alone undoes that.

Prestonpans is now divided with no bus from top to bottom, the Prentice offering doesn't particularly replace what has been lost. Macmerry and Gladsmuir have suffered the same fate as Rosewell and are now cut off from Edinburgh save for the peak time X6 runs. Tranent loses its fast, direct service to Edinburgh, the X4 will be too slow end to end compared with the current X6. Wallyford's East End loses frequency to Tranent as well as fast, direct services to Edinburgh as a result of X4 serving top Pans. The loss of the direct link to WGH will be felt across the east of Edinburgh and Musselburgh.

There has been no improvement in frequency, no improvement in connectivity - rather a downgrade, and no improvement in the provision of early morning or late evening services.

Finally, to make us all feel better about these changes to our services we have to pay more for them - on top of our 10% council tax hike.

I completely agree with everything you’ve said there. Macmerry’s link to town being gone I don’t think is that much of a disaster as off peak loadings on the X6 have never been favourable. What is a disaster though is taking away 2 of its 3 buses per hour and not replacing them at least in part with something running locally. The local Prestonpans to Tranent links again should have been left that way.

If the X4 was direct from Tranent to Wallyford and the 106 was half hourly then most of this would have worked.

The 113 being cut short is silly as well. Will anyone actually use the X6 to the hospital if it’s limited stop via A1 and therefore doesn’t serve Musselburgh? Wasn’t that the whole point of the 113 originally? The limited X4 extensions are also very confusingly implemented, presumably as there’s no way to turn them around.

As I say, if the X5 were half hourly, ran via Prestonpans and Wallyford and ran in coordination with the 124 from Wallyford to North Berwick you could provide an every 15 minutes service along this corridor. I think it would work brilliantly. The X4 could then serve the new houses rather than Fa’side giving it an all day bus to town. Wallyford itself would still be connected to Tranent with the 106 and 113. At that point you may as well run the X6 non stop to Tranent bypassing Wallyford. The idea of it serving Fort Kinnaird though, dear oh dear.

I’ll have to look into this properly but surely there’s better ways this could have been done?

 

[NorthEastern]

I’m wondering if Lothian bosses look on here before coming up with their changes? I know they will have travel data from their buses but this forum is good for proposals from local users who have a feel for what might work.

 

[Baileygirl]

really? When was that and how profitable was it compared to the big city operations elsewhere.

It was before Lothian Country came in and ruined the services in West Lothian

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’m wondering if Lothian bosses look on here before coming up with their changes? I know they will have travel data from their buses but this forum is good for proposals from local users who have a feel for what might work.

I think they definitely didn’t look on here for what they’ve actually come up with though.

I once suggested a 46 to run alongside the 48 and it actually did happen. Albeit slightly different with it running to Rosewell, but part of the idea did as I had suggested it to run between Royal Infirmary and I think Musselburgh, if not Fort Kinnaird. So who knows…

 

[Baileygirl]

No plans to do anything out west until 2026 I believe.

A direct service between Armadale and Livingston via Bathgate, Blackburn and Livingston Village would be good and also appease the recent protests/petitions in several areas. This was a busy route run previously by First.

 

[SoloSR334022]

No plans to do anything out west until 2026 I believe.

Seriously? West Lothian getting shafted again!

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Seriously? West Lothian getting shafted again!

To be fair, I doubt 2026 will be the next set, we could maybe still get something in the summer?

 

[JasonGillblox]

X6 should've maintained or at least had a similar frequency as it does now. They have the numbers thanks to the Skylink (rubbish heaps) coming to ECB. The B9s are still more than fit for purpose and will be for years to come. They have aged superbly minus the squeaking poles at the rear bottom deck, which can be fixed in 5 minutes. As for the Top Pans and Bottom Pans link issue, we have legs for a 5 minute walk down West Loan, don't we? Who's paying whatever it is to save a 5 minute walk? Only example I can think of is OAPs, but they're a minority and can get other mobility arrangements such as those buggy things, I cant mind what theyre called for now but dont worry about that. Lothian would be bound to make more money if they kept the X6 on it's current schedule, as well as passenger loads being more spread for enhanced passenger comfort. Outside of peak time, the 113 is quicker than the X4 to Tranent anyway, which backs up the desire for the X6 to run full time, even on a less frequent schedule.

I'm not just saying this because I want the B9s to stay, even though I do. I'm saying what makes more sense (to me and hopefully others). The B9s staying in use would allow them to avoid a horrendously unreliable reintroduction to service (which the 09s suffered), if things do go sideways with the BZLs. Seeing as this won't happen I hope they don't sell them on but rather keep all of the withdrawals in reserve. An order of 98 is rather adventurous.

 

[danielhogg2005]

I think with Lothian Country not having any changes this time could mean that they are still working on a service change, probably after this one to see how it works with resources.

 

[paravostok]

A direct service between Armadale and Livingston via Bathgate, Blackburn and Livingston Village would be good and also appease the recent protests/petitions in several areas. This was a busy route run previously by First.

Not that it may mean much, but being someone that lives in Armadale and find it completely ridiculous I can get to Edinburgh city centre by bus faster than Livingston, I recently emailed a few councillors for the area

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Not that it may mean much, but being someone that lives in Armadale and find it completely ridiculous I can get to Edinburgh city centre by bus faster than Livingston, I recently emailed a few councillors for the area

I’m assuming you’re referring to the train? There’s no way a bus to Edinburgh is quicker than 2 buses to Livingston. If so, that’s a relatively unfair comparison.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I’m assuming you’re referring to the train? There’s no way a bus to Edinburgh is quicker than 2 buses to Livingston. If so, that’s a relatively unfair comparison.

I've taken the X18 from Bathgate a few times to Edinburgh and its taken me about at least 20-30 minutes to reach to Maybury, giving timings, it could be possible to miss a X27/28 or 73 in Bathgate for a further connection into Livingston, so i can see how it comes across, saying that LCB can't avoid these ommisions forever.

 

[DunsBus]

These changes are a massive step back for connectivity in East Lothian. It's such a shame to see as ECB have been making improvements across the board for near to ten years and I feel like this change alone undoes that.

Prestonpans is now divided with no bus from top to bottom, the Prentice offering doesn't particularly replace what has been lost. Macmerry and Gladsmuir have suffered the same fate as Rosewell and are now cut off from Edinburgh save for the peak time X6 runs. Tranent loses its fast, direct service to Edinburgh, the X4 will be too slow end to end compared with the current X6. Wallyford's East End loses frequency to Tranent as well as fast, direct services to Edinburgh as a result of X4 serving top Pans. The loss of the direct link to WGH will be felt across the east of Edinburgh and Musselburgh.

There has been no improvement in frequency, no improvement in connectivity - rather a downgrade, and no improvement in the provision of early morning or late evening services.

Finally, to make us all feel better about these changes to our services we have to pay more for them - on top of our 10% council tax hike.

As with West Lothian, East Lothian residents wanted to see the back of First and ultimately got their wish. Lothian, in the form of firstly Lothian Country and then East Coast, was seen as a knight in shining armour - except that the knight is now having to make changes, and in some cases cuts, to keep its network viable.

Again it's a classic case of be careful what you wish for.

 

[paravostok]

I’m assuming you’re referring to the train? There’s no way a bus to Edinburgh is quicker than 2 buses to Livingston. If so, that’s a relatively unfair comparison.

In fairness, I'm a bit of a worst case scenario, I live in the very south of Armadale next to the station, to Princes St. on the x18 it's 1h20 or so, and to the Centre, (atleast according to the lothian app) I could either take an x18 then 72 (1h24), an x18 then x28 (1h27) or an x18 then 73 (1h43)

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

I think Cockenzie does need some frequency increase. A faster bus from Prestonpans is certainly useful.
They could have done something like this:
Keep the 26 split,
Withdraw 113 and 124, Split up the 22, make it 22 and 42
42 Granton - City - A1 - Wallyford - Prestonpans (South) - Cockenzie - Port Seton - Seton Sands. (replacing X26) every 30 minutes.
22 Gyle - City then continue to Levenhall (every 15 min) - half going to Tranent - Windygoul. 22/42 can return to Princes St.
The other half Prestonpans (North) - Prestonpans (South) - terminate at Blindwells.
22 can replace the 15 section between Waterloo Pl - Wakefield Ave. Then run via A199 bypass Porty.
new X13 Pencaitland - Tranent - (Wallyford) - A1 - City partially replacing X6.
X5 increased to every 30 minutes
106 keep as it is.
X6 withdrawn, peak journeys only.
X7 Increased to every 20 minutes.
X44 withdrawn
X26 Whitecraig - Inveresk - Musselburgh - Portobello - City.

 

[yorkie]

... As for the Top Pans and Bottom Pans link issue, we have legs for a 5 minute walk down West Loan, don't we?...

Can you clarify what you mean by Top Pans and Bottom Pans link?

Your post doesn't refer to any previous post or any other source, so I don't have any context. A quick web search doesn't yield any results.

(And, while it will be a minority, the reality is that not everyone reading this will "have legs", or don't have legs they can use for walking).

 

[JasonGillblox]

Can you clarify what you mean by Top Pans and Bottom Pans link?

Your post doesn't refer to any previous post or any other source, so I don't have any context. A quick web search doesn't yield any results.

(And, while it will be a minority, the reality is that not everyone reading this will "have legs", or don't have legs they can use for walking).

Bottom Pans, is the part of, Prestonpans, by the sea, Top Pans, is the part closest to Tranent. I am referring to the loss of, service, in the area, in the attached screenshot.

As for the legs issue, if they can transport, themselves from their, residence to the bus, stop, I'd be pretty, sensible, to believe they can arrange something, similar, to get from the top, to bottom, and vice versa? Anyway, lets stop arguing about disabled people, yes? Lets talk about Lothian, Buses!

 

[buslad1988]

I’m surprised by the disconnect of Prestonpans. I thought they’d cover the Tranent section like-for-like with a new service running parallel with the 26 to Levenhall to offer some form of connectivity (similar to what they did when they altered the 3/33/49 and created the 46/48).

I’m wondering if the anti-social behaviour issues they’ve had with youths on the Prestonpans to Tranent leg has played a part in this decision. It will eradicate the problem; however it does mean they’ll simply be travelling to/from Seton Sands instead. It’s an embarrassment how some of them behave, even more so infront of tourists staying at the camp.

Similarly Bonnyrigg to Rosewell was also becoming an issue on the 49 before that was changed. Placing single deckers on this section was supposed to act as a deterrent.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Keep the 26 split,

So Clerwood - City and Seton Sands - City?, or do you mean how it is just now between Seton Sands and Tranent?

Withdraw 113 and 124, Split up the 22, make it 22 and 42
42 Granton - City - A1 - Wallyford - Prestonpans (South) - Cockenzie - Port Seton - Seton Sands. (replacing X26) every 30 minutes.

Not a bad idea, it partially replaces the 113 in the West section so it wouldn't leave it without a service.

22 Gyle - City then continue to Levenhall (every 15 min) - half going to Tranent - Windygoul. 22/42 can return to Princes St.
The other half Prestonpans (North) - Prestonpans (South) - terminate at Blindwells.

22 can replace the 15 section between Waterloo Pl - Wakefield Ave. Then run via A199 bypass Porty.

So i assume after the A199 it runs via Brunstane into Musselburgh?

new X13 Pencaitland - Tranent - (Wallyford) - A1 - City partially replacing X6.

This should of been implmented years ago, would of been better than the current X4

X5 increased to every 30 minutes

If this is to replace the 124, then what about evening and sunday journeys? and the link between North Berwick/Aberlady - Prestonpans/Musselburgh etc

106 keep as it is.

Pre April changes?, i actually think the 106 changes is the best that service has been since 2017

X6 withdrawn, peak journeys only.
X7 Increased to every 20 minutes.
X44 withdrawn

So the April changes then

X26 Whitecraig - Inveresk - Musselburgh - Portobello - City.

To be fair, Whitecraig is heavily ignored outside peak 44's and the 140.


Another thing i've noticed is on the fares change, for both East Coast and Lothian Country, they have a new ticket called "City&Country DAY" which lets you travel East to West for much cheaper than a Network Dayticket, which is good for about the 6 people who will probably utilise this, but goes very unnoticed in the list, i would of thought this would of been a good selling point if i'm honest.

Still no clarification if the Ridacard will now be valid across East and West Lothian now!

 

[DunsBus]

Bottom Pans, is the part of, Prestonpans, by the sea, Top Pans, is the part closest to Tranent. I am referring to the loss of, service, in the area, in the attached screenshot.

As for the legs issue, if they can transport, themselves from their, residence to the bus, stop, I'd be pretty, sensible, to believe they can arrange something, similar, to get from the top, to bottom, and vice versa? Anyway, lets stop arguing about disabled people, yes? Lets talk about Lothian, Buses!
View attachment 175687

That has to be the most patronising post I've ever read on these forums. Not everyone has legs, or even the use of legs, so to suggest that they be used in future to get from the bottom of Prestonpans to the top is a bit rich.

If I were you, I'd stop digging right now.

 

[zjsptgzxyspks]

It probably would be better to run an additional 124 North Berwick - Eastfield during daytime and run X5 every 30 minutes Mon -Sun and every 60 minutes evenings.
I'd have the 124 re-route from North Berwick -- Aberlady - Longniddry - turn around at the roundabout - Links Rd to Cockenzie - Preston High School - Musselburgh - Eastfield.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

It probably would be better to run an additional 124 North Berwick - Eastfield during daytime and run X5 every 30 minutes Mon -Sun and every 60 minutes evenings.
I'd have the 124 re-route from North Berwick -- Aberlady - Longniddry - turn around at the roundabout - Links Rd to Cockenzie - Preston High School - Musselburgh - Eastfield.

Akin to how the 124 used to run North Berwick - Musselburgh Tesco and the X24 was Edinburgh - North Berwick back in First Bus days?

Personally it would be nice to see the 124 back in Portobello someday, i doubt it will happen but it was a nice link between the seaside and the rest of the East Lothian coast, if Lothian was to ever give East Coast Buses full control over East Lothian beyond Musselburgh, i would be nice to see them do a service beyond Seton Sands to North Berwick.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

According to the Lothian bus tracker 717 is out on Service 24.