Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Dave2105]

If the 45 is going back to singles then it could be rerouted to terminate at Fort Kinnard via QM Uni and Newcraighall, and the 30 cut short to terminate at Fort Kinnard so it could then use deckers.

Doing that would leave the stoneybank area of Musselburgh and without a bus service and the last 45 is around 18:30 leaving QMU without a bus service post 18:30.
A better idea would be to reroute the 49 from Sheriffhall Park to QMU via the new development at shawfair, Millerhill and Old Craighall and extend the 33 to Roswell.

 

[ScotRail158725]

Doing that would leave the stoneybank area of Musselburgh and without a bus service and the last 45 is around 18:30 leaving QMU without a bus service post 18:30.
A better idea would be to reroute the 49 from Sheriffhall Park to QMU via the new development at shawfair, Millerhill and Old Craighall and extend the 33 to Roswell.

why not leave the 49 and just extend the 33? or even better lets stop bringing up the 30 needed artics or doubles topic

 

[OmniCity999]

or even better lets stop bringing up the 30 needed artics or doubles topic

How about we actually discuss things on this forum instead of shutting things down because it goes against peoples opinions?

I personally think the 30 will be rerouted once the road changes for the development beside the QMU are finished and it will go decker as it will be able to avoid Newcraighall.

Attached is an image of what i was lead to believe would be happening in the area. The red areas are to be houses, being built around Millerhill depot and the various train lines. The blue areas are a proposed widening and new roads to QMU and Musselburgh. The A1 is to receive 2 new slip roads and an underpass at QMU to facilitate this.

I'd imagine the 30 would divert under the A1 at this new underpass, through the new housing estates and back to Fort Kinnaird onto original route - also allowing the 30 to be double deck.

Routes through Newcraighall and Stoneybank would need to be strengthend for this. As far as i can make out, the best idea would be re routing the 106 through Stoneybank and down through Newcraighall Village. The hourly frequency between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird should be maintained with an extra hourly service from Musselburgh or Wallyford (making a half hourly frequency) to Fort Kinnaird. The 106 could even possibly extend to the Royal Infirmary through the Wisp and the housing estates. Judging on demand, extra journeys could be added.

Depending on demand in the area, the 48 or 49 could also be extended, the 48 through Newcraighall and Stoneybank and the 49 through the New Housing estates and QMU. The 45 is also a possibility, extending through QMU to Fort Kinnaird with an increased frequency, specifically on the Kings Road to Fort Kinnaird corridor.

 

[computerSaysNo]

How about we actually discuss things on this forum instead of shutting things down because it goes against peoples opinions?

To be fair it is brought up fairly often, I only mentioned it because it was fairly relevant to what was being discussed, and it was either thinking about that or trying to do uni work

Attached is an image of what i was lead to believe would be happening in the area. The red areas are to be houses, being built around Millerhill depot and the various train lines. The blue areas are a proposed widening and new roads to QMU and Musselburgh. The A1 is to receive 2 new slip roads and an underpass at QMU to facilitate this.

I'd imagine the 30 would divert under the A1 at this new underpass, through the new housing estates and back to Fort Kinnaird onto original route - also allowing the 30 to be double deck.

Routes through Newcraighall and Stoneybank would need to be strengthend for this. As far as i can make out, the best idea would be re routing the 106 through Stoneybank and down through Newcraighall Village. The hourly frequency between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird should be maintained with an extra hourly service from Musselburgh or Wallyford (making a half hourly frequency) to Fort Kinnaird. The 106 could even possibly extend to the Royal Infirmary through the Wisp and the housing estates. Judging on demand, extra journeys could be added.

Depending on demand in the area, the 48 or 49 could also be extended, the 48 through Newcraighall and Stoneybank and the 49 through the New Housing estates and QMU. The 45 is also a possibility, extending through QMU to Fort Kinnaird with an increased frequency, specifically on the Kings Road to Fort Kinnaird corridor.

That's a huge area of housing!
The plan you've mentioned RE bus routes sounds sensible.
An alternative to running part-route 45s, if they haven't already found somewhere for the 15, could be to extend it via Kings Road to Fort Kinnard.

 

[OmniCity999]

That's a huge area of housing!
The plan you've mentioned RE bus routes sounds sensible.
An alternative to running part-route 45s, if they haven't already found somewhere for the 15, could be to extend it via Kings Road to Fort Kinnard.

i think that would be ideal.

There are also more houses being built and planned in Tranent, Prestonpans (area), Blindwells of course, North Berwick, Dunbar, Haddington. The list goes on and on.

The number of houses being built in Tranent and Blindwells alone is in its thousands.

Unfortunately, with more housing being built comes alterations and changes to services, but i doubt very much that we'll see any entirely new services.

In Tranent, in the next year or so i believe the plan is for the 26 to change its Terminus and operate a one way loop - head down Ormiston Road, right up a new road then Right again onto Brotherstones Way South, up to the Roundabout and back onto route. As in the picture below. Although, having seen the drawings for the new streets, they look rather narrow. Believe they've already dug into the field and started building the new terminus. Personally i think a better Terminus would be outside the Primary School.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

How about we actually discuss things on this forum instead of shutting things down because it goes against peoples opinions?

Attached is an image of what i was lead to believe would be happening in the area. The red areas are to be houses, being built around Millerhill depot and the various train lines. The blue areas are a proposed widening and new roads to QMU and Musselburgh. The A1 is to receive 2 new slip roads and an underpass at QMU to facilitate this.

I'd imagine the 30 would divert under the A1 at this new underpass, through the new housing estates and back to Fort Kinnaird onto original route - also allowing the 30 to be double deck.

Routes through Newcraighall and Stoneybank would need to be strengthend for this. As far as i can make out, the best idea would be re routing the 106 through Stoneybank and down through Newcraighall Village. The hourly frequency between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird should be maintained with an extra hourly service from Musselburgh or Wallyford (making a half hourly frequency) to Fort Kinnaird. The 106 could even possibly extend to the Royal Infirmary through the Wisp and the housing estates. Judging on demand, extra journeys could be added.

Depending on demand in the area, the 48 or 49 could also be extended, the 48 through Newcraighall and Stoneybank and the 49 through the New Housing estates and QMU. The 45 is also a possibility, extending through QMU to Fort Kinnaird with an increased frequency, specifically on the Kings Road to Fort Kinnaird corridor.

I think extending the 106 to the Royal
would be a perfect idea, offers an alternative to the 111 from Haddington/Musselburgh and gives Tranent a direct link to the RIE via the Wisp

The 15 could also be a perfect candidate for this, goodness knows that this service gets changed enough every single year anyway!

Perhaps the 106 could go like this,

Monday - Saturday
Some Journey‘s extended from Fort Kinnaird to Royal Infirmary via the Wisp and Milligan Drive.

Every 30 minutes between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird with hourly journeys extending beyond to the Royal.

The service gets rerouted to serve Musselburgh Tesco via Olive Bank Road directly missing out North High Street (see below)

The last bus departing from the Fort to Haddington gets extended to Dunbar and late evening journeys run to/from Dunbar and Musselburgh Tesco

Sunday

All journeys run from Dunbar to Royal Infirmary during the day with evening journeys running between Musselburgh and Dunbar

 

[OmniCity999]

I think extending the 106 to the Royal
would be a perfect idea, offers an alternative to the 111 from Haddington/Musselburgh and gives Tranent a direct link to the RIE via the Wisp

The 15 could also be a perfect candidate for this, goodness knows that this service gets changed enough every single year anyway!

Perhaps the 106 could go like this,

Monday - Saturday
Some Journey‘s extended from Fort Kinnaird to Royal Infirmary via the Wisp and Milligan Drive.

Every 30 minutes between Haddington and Fort Kinnaird with hourly journeys extending beyond to the Royal.

The service gets rerouted to serve Musselburgh Tesco via Olive Bank Road directly missing out North High Street (see below)

The last bus departing from the Fort to Haddington gets extended to Dunbar and late evening journeys run to/from Dunbar and Musselburgh Tesco

Sunday

All journeys run from Dunbar to Royal Infirmary during the day with evening journeys running between Musselburgh and Dunbar

Unfortunately i dont think a full Haddington to Fort Kinnaird half hourly service would be economical. It's regularly quiet as it is.

Theres plenty of options for people between Haddington and Tranent to change to other services so the full run wouldnt be viable. Had the Eve 108 not been there, it would potentially work. A Sunday service on the 106 Haddington to RIE could work very well too.

I think hourly would be best with maybe an hourly service from Wallyford P&R or Whitecraig, creating a half hourly core service from Musselburgh to Fort Kinnaird/RIE.

Potentially an hourly 106 from Haddington to RIE and an hourly 140 from Penicuik to RIE via Musselburgh, creating a half hourly service, that could work very well. Even seven days a week.

Extending to RIE is a great ideal i feel. It also opens up scope for passengers to change to services to the south and West of the City via RIE.

 

[DunsBus]

That route you've outlined in blue was, at one time, the back road between Niddrie and Stoneybank until the A1 Musselburgh bypass severed it in the mid-1980s, with the bit east of the A1 now buried under the QMU.

 

[CN04NRJ]

If only Lothian had articulated buses!.... I know it's perhaps a unpopular opinion with some but i've always thought the 30 should be artic operated.

Was just browsing Flickr (copy URL was disabled only download available so credit to Steven's Photos UK) and came across this - I can't think of a more horrendous contraption. Glad they didn't go for these.

Photo description, articulated 7900 demonstration vehicle at the 2013 doors open day.

 

[OmniCity999]

That route you've outlined in blue was, at one time, the back road between Niddrie and Stoneybank until the A1 Musselburgh bypass severed it in the mid-1980s, with the bit east of the A1 now buried under the QMU.

it's amazing how things go full circle eventually, isnt it?

The 15 was supposed to return to Eastfield (pre-vcovid)
49 back to deckers
the list goes on and on

and probably more in fitting with this website, the move to undo some of Beeching's advice.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Unfortunately i dont think a full Haddington to Fort Kinnaird half hourly service would be economical. It's regularly quiet as it is.

Theres plenty of options for people between Haddington and Tranent to change to other services so the full run wouldnt be viable. Had the Eve 108 not been there, it would potentially work. A Sunday service on the 106 Haddington to RIE could work very well too.

I think hourly would be best with maybe an hourly service from Wallyford P&R or Whitecraig, creating a half hourly core service from Musselburgh to Fort Kinnaird/RIE.

Potentially an hourly 106 from Haddington to RIE and an hourly 140 from Penicuik to RIE via Musselburgh, creating a half hourly service, that could work very well. Even seven days a week.

Extending to RIE is a great ideal i feel. It also opens up scope for passengers to change to services to the south and West of the City via RIE.

I guess what you could do is leave the 106’s frequency as it is but extend it to the City Centre via Duddingston Park South then as 104 route from there. That would still give Newcraighall Village a bus link to the city centre without a change and it would also offer a faster link to Fort Kinnaird at the same time. As for the half hourly service on the 106 you could possibly wait and see how this worked and then take it from there (much like the 113).

The 140 could run to RIE every 30 mins from Musselburgh Tesco via Mall Avenue and onto Eskview Terrace and then the current 30 route as far as Fort Kinnaird and then via the 48/400 route serving Greendykes and terminate at the RIE.

It’s a shame the 48 probably couldn’t run as an ECB 148 because it would give them some decent revenue (in normal circumstances), the lack of additional space at Musselburgh obviously prevents this from happening.

The 30 then running via the new access road and as doubles, probably every 15 minutes.

As has been mentioned before it’s still a few years away before this road even gets built, so I wouldn’t expect anything of note to change until that happens.

 

[DunsBus]

it's amazing how things go full circle eventually, isnt it?

Indeed! Though the Mucklets road, as it was known, was never part of a scheduled bus route as far as I know.
What you may not know is that Olivebank Road was built as part of the A1 bypass plans, to maintain a link between Newcraighall and the Stoneybank area after the Mucklets road was severed.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

I guess what you could do is leave the 106’s frequency as it is but extend it to the City Centre via Duddingston Park South then as 104 route from there. That would still give Newcraighall Village a bus link to the city centre without a change and it would also offer a faster link to Fort Kinnaird at the same time. As for the half hourly service on the 106 you could possibly wait and see how this worked and then take it from there (much like the 113).

The 140 could run to RIE every 30 mins from Musselburgh Tesco via Mall Avenue and onto Eskview Terrace and then the current 30 route as far as Fort Kinnaird and then via the 48/400 route serving Greendykes and terminate at the RIE.

It’s a shame the 48 probably couldn’t run as an ECB 148 because it would give them some decent revenue (in normal circumstances), the lack of additional space at Musselburgh obviously prevents this from happening.

The 30 then running via the new access road and as doubles, probably every 15 minutes.

As has been mentioned before it’s still a few years away before this road even gets built, so I wouldn’t expect anything of note to change until that happens.

I thought that originally as an alternative to the 104 but the main purpose of it which is to link Musselburgh with Haddington is already furfilled so i think extending it to the city centre wont be needed, although the same debate about rerouting the 104 to Fort Kinnaird has been discussed since 2016 and yet hasn’t become the case yet!

I think the 140 could work well extending to the Royal via Fort Kinnaird or even just Fort Kinnaird! Although that might be awkward for fare zones, City Zone A -County Zone B and then City Zone A again, I said it before and I’ll say it again, ECB needs to put Midlothian in the same fare zone as Tranent and Musselburgh.

that’s a good question, if the 30 was to run double deckers would it justify a reduction in frequency?

also on a side note I took Horseburghs 40 for the first time ever, loved the unique route to Ratho via Gogar and onto Bonnington, but the bus itself was disgusting, plus the lack of contactless was a turn off, was lucky I had £2.50 on me, honestly if LCB do bid for this I wish them well, it’s a great route otherwise and I noticed it picked up a few passengers in the Gilmerton section straight to Livingston

 

[OmniCity999]

I thought that originally as an alternative to the 104 but the main purpose of it which is to link Musselburgh with Haddington is already furfilled so i think extending it to the city centre wont be needed, although the same debate about rerouting the 104 to Fort Kinnaird has been discussed since 2016 and yet hasn’t become the case yet!

I think the 140 could work well extending to the Royal via Fort Kinnaird or even just Fort Kinnaird! Although that might be awkward for fare zones, City Zone A -County Zone B and then City Zone A again, I said it before and I’ll say it again, ECB needs to put Midlothian in the same fare zone as Tranent and Musselburgh.

that’s a good question, if the 30 was to run double deckers would it justify a reduction in frequency?

also on a side note I took Horseburghs 40 for the first time ever, loved the unique route to Ratho via Gogar and onto Bonnington, but the bus itself was disgusting, plus the lack of contactless was a turn off, was lucky I had £2.50 on me, honestly if LCB do bid for this I wish them well, it’s a great route otherwise and I noticed it picked up a few passengers in the Gilmerton section straight to Livingston

There's no advanced need for the 106 to extend from Fort Kinnaird to the City as it overlaps with other services. Customers can change.

An interesting route would be Haddington - Cameron Toll (via Tranent, Wallyford P&R, Musselburgh Town, QMU, Stoneybank, Newcraighall Village, Fort Kinnaird, Wisp, RIE, Cameron Toll. But even then it overlaps with other routes that could facilitate this even if it was extended to RIE.

An East Lothian to RIE journey for the company could be very valuable.

End to end journeys arent the be all and end all of routes.



An extension and reroute to the 106 i feel is the best option, when the new housing is up and the 30 is re routed. The 30 could run deckers all day on a 15 minute frequency and 20 minute frequency after 8pm and before 7am.

106 - Haddington - RIE hourly via QMU, Stoneybank, Fort Kinnaird & The Wisp/Greendykes as well as
106 - Whitecraig - RIE hourly via QMU and Stoneybank, Fort Kinnaird & The Wisp/Greendykes

creating a half hour frequency between Wallyford and RIE

or

106 - Haddington - RIE hourly via QMU, Stoneybank, Fort Kinnaird & The Wisp/Greendykes as well as
140 - Penicuik - Fort Kinnaird hourly (another hourly service between Penicuik and Musselburgh Tesco would create the half hourly frequency on the Dalkeith Corridor)

Creating a half our frequency between Musselburgh Police Station and RIE

I really dont think there is the demand for a half hourly service between Haddington and RIE considering we have Prentice and the 104 going between Haddington and Wallyford.

 

[scosutsut]

I guess ECB Depot space would need to be addressed for any of these come true.

 

[tbtc]

I think that the services in operation once thousands of new houses are built could be completely different from today's offering - the scale of the development means more than just adding one vehicle to the PVR of a couple of services. The talk of a road under the A1 means that the current single decker restrictions at Newcraighall may be a thing of the past soon too. Who knows where the 14 is going to end up, as they keep building more housing estates...

It may be that the current process of one route doing A-B-C is replaced by a service from A-B, a service from B-C and a service from A-C.

For example, the (Wester Hailes - ) City - Niddrie - Fort Kinnaird - Newcraighalll - QMU - Musselburgh bit of the 30 could easily be cut back to (Wester Hailes - ) City - Niddrie - Fort Kinnaird (allowing the 30 to be double decker operated) with an extended 5 running (Oxgangs -) City - Mountcastle - The Jewel - Newcraighalll - QMU with something else linking Niddrie and Fort Kinnaird to Newcraighalll/ QMU/ Musselburgh...

...which brings me onto the suggestion of a combined ten minute service from the ERI - Niddrie - Fort Kinnaird - Newcraighalll - QMU - Musselburgh... made up of an extended 48 (beyond Fort Kinnaird to Musselburgh) and an extended 106 (beyond Fort Kinnaird to the ERI, beefed up to every twenty minutes west of Wallyford P&R)?

That way you'd maintain all of the current links, make some of the "non-city" routes more lucrative (by passing some flows onto them) and make the 30 more reliable by shortening it?

The "missing link" in that part of town seems to be Cameron Toll - Niddrie - part of the old 32/52 (and 38/58, once upon a time!) but I guess Cameron Toll isn't as attractive as it was in the days when Sainsburys had a "Savacentre" there! (am I showing my age?)

 

[computerSaysNo]

I've just remembered, isn't the City Council doing some sort of bus network review in which they said bus routes will run to the edge of the city centre but not through it? If that is still going ahead then any changes may well have already happened before all these new housing schemes open. That said I haven't heard anything about it since away before the pandemic, so I don't know if it's still being looked at.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I've just remembered, isn't the City Council doing some sort of bus network review in which they said bus routes will run to the edge of the city centre but not through it? If that is still going ahead then any changes may well have already happened before all these new housing schemes open. That said I haven't heard anything about it since away before the pandemic, so I don't know if it's still being looked at.

I really hope they don't go ahead with this madness - I cannot comprehend the logic behind it, does anybody else that could explain it for me?

 

[takno]

I really hope they don't go ahead with this madness - I cannot comprehend the logic behind it, does anybody else that could explain it for me?

They've decided that the city centre must be walkable at all costs, and that Lothian Road and Princes Street are full of dirty smelly buses. Therefore, their expensive consultants concluded, it would be better to not run any buses through town, and instead run them to draughty edge-of-centre bus stations, with a "convenient" hopper service between them. Every time they've put it out to consultation everybody says how much they hate it as an idea, and every time they cherry-pick irrelevant stats to disguise it, and come up with a new name for the concept.

It's going to happen for a couple of years, and then once it's finally got through to the idiots on the council that they've let the even bigger idiots in the transport department wreck the city, it will be quietly reversed. They may even think of a neat name for the "new" concept of through buses.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I really hope they don't go ahead with this madness - I cannot comprehend the logic behind it, does anybody else that could explain it for me?

I believe it's because Princes St will be more congested with trams in future. Also there's a push to reduce emissions in the city centre.
Certainly a big turn off for bus passengers if they're expected to change modes to continue a familiar journey.

 

[CN04NRJ]

They've decided that the city centre must be walkable at all costs, and that Lothian Road and Princes Street are full of dirty smelly buses. Therefore, their expensive consultants concluded, it would be better to not run any buses through town, and instead run them to draughty edge-of-centre bus stations, with a "convenient" hopper service between them. Every time they've put it out to consultation everybody says how much they hate it as an idea, and every time they cherry-pick irrelevant stats to disguise it, and come up with a new name for the concept.

It's going to happen for a couple of years, and then once it's finally got through to the idiots on the council that they've let the even bigger idiots in the transport department wreck the city, it will be quietly reversed. They may even think of a neat name for the "new" concept of through buses.

Same situation where I used to work in Cardiff - pedestrianised one of the main city centre roads (St Mary St), then sold off the bus station site to the BBC in 2015 (yet to be replaced), narrowed every major road in the centre and permitted the building of thousands of car parking spaces in the centre. It decimated passenger numbers there, and it'll do the same here. They also had external consultants come in and completely review/renumber the network twice (in 2002 and 2013) which again reduced passenger numbers as it failed to meet people's wants and needs.

I see they trot out the line of the "100 year old unchanged bus network" (well, largely unchanged) - have they considered that there's a reason it's remained largely unchanged for so long.... maybe because.... it works? (for the most part, obviously it's not perfect and can be improved). Purely to con the public into thinking "old bad, new good".

Before this can happen, if i'm correct, they have to wrestle against the 1986 act that requires them to hold an arms length company for full political control to be achieved? Let's hope that doesn't happen.

 

[computerSaysNo]

I agree that it's a silly decision. If Princes Street is going to be too busy then why not send (say) all the Leith Walk services down Queen Street and York Place instead (people could still take a 26/44 from Princes Street and change at York Place if they don't want to/can't walk to Queen Street).

 

[Jordan Adam]

I've just remembered, isn't the City Council doing some sort of bus network review in which they said bus routes will run to the edge of the city centre but not through it? If that is still going ahead then any changes may well have already happened before all these new housing schemes open. That said I haven't heard anything about it since away before the pandemic, so I don't know if it's still being looked at.

Isn't this what the 4 BYD E400s are for, they're meant to be launching a new free city centre route of some sort to accommodate for the network review.

 

[scotrail158713]

It doesn’t make any sense at all really. If Princes St is so congested and polluted from all these “dirty” buses, what’s it going to be like stopping them all on Lothian Rd, George St etc? It just pushes the problem to there instead.

 

[ScotRail158725]

the problem is that people dont want to walk a distance or change buses, the bus network in edinburgh works and and has done for a long time so theres no need to change it and ruin it

 

[scotrail158713]

the problem is that people dont want to walk a distance or change buses, the bus network in edinburgh works and and has done for a long time so theres no need to change it and ruin it

Yep. It seems to me like a solution very much looking for a problem.

 

[ScotRail158725]

20942 is finally out.

Link to photo on Flickr:

East Coast Buses 942 - SN10 DKO

After spending more than three years out of service following a bridge strike in 2017, 942 is now back in service and is seen here on service 124 to North Berwick.

www.flickr.com

 

[OmniCity999]

20942 is finally out.

Link to photo on Flickr:

East Coast Buses 942 - SN10 DKO

After spending more than three years out of service following a bridge strike in 2017, 942 is now back in service and is seen here on service 124 to North Berwick.

www.flickr.com

Its been out a couple of times on short runs the last few days.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Bus 427 finally has had its Luggage Racks removed. I had a photo however it was too shaky.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Bus 427 finally has had its Luggage Racks removed. I had a photo however it was too shaky.

Yea I thought I noticed this the other day, completely forgot to mention it haha. Don’t think it has next stop information however but glad that rack is finally out.

Its been out a couple of times on short runs the last few days.

I assume this means 844 is likely to head back to West Lothian now? Wonder if it’ll be via repaint or just straight there?