Low floor coach - third time lucky?

[Volvodart]

The routes in the Highlands they would be suitable for do not make money and could not afford new buses. The seating may well be too small for the routes that do get new buses there.

 

[overthewater]

No one else has brought any. Red Arrow from trent, what happened to them looking at it.

 

[Volvodart]

Bluebird took one to show one of the councils in the North Scotland area, but no more has been heard, and that was some time ago.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Go Ahead and Bus Eireann are about to introduce some low floor coaches in Ireland.

They are based on the Bus B8RLE chassis with cheaply adapted SB3 coach bodywork which looks like it has been ripped from a coach and put on a bus chassis rather than actually designed as an overall product.

Photos here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/iri...-from-12th-july-2019-t12475-s570.html#p105285

The layout is truly dreadful and screams of a cheap conversion job / hack of an existing product than a proper design in it's own right.

 

[PG]

Well that Bus Eireann 'thing' is a good example of how-not-to-do it.

What a dogs breakfast they've come up with!

The picture in the article linked to in the OP looks miles better, have Plaxton actually made any yet?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Well that Bus Eireann 'thing' is a good example of how-not-to-do it.

What a dogs breakfast they've come up with!

The picture in the article linked to in the OP looks miles better, have Plaxton actually made any yet?

That's one of the drawbacks of public companies having to order everything by tender as opposed to the open market, companies often have done and will continue to offer vehicles designed to tick as many boxes as possible, spec'd and priced to win tenders rather than to deliver a quality product.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Go Ahead and Bus Eireann are about to introduce some low floor coaches in Ireland.

They are based on the Bus B8RLE chassis with cheaply adapted SB3 coach bodywork which looks like it has been ripped from a coach and put on a bus chassis rather than actually designed as an overall product.

Photos here:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/iri...-from-12th-july-2019-t12475-s570.html#p105285

The layout is truly dreadful and screams of a cheap conversion job / hack of an existing product than a proper design in it's own right.

Doesn't look too bad, but I find the Panther LE much nicer to be honest.
These are Sunsundegui SB3 LE body, very common in Spain.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The routes in the Highlands they would be suitable for do not make money and could not afford new buses. The seating may well be too small for the routes that do get new buses there.

In my opinion, all Highland routes north of Inverness (except for the X98 and X99 which are way too long and are really fast, where you would want a real high floor coach instead) are suitable for Panther LEs, or even real buses like ADL E300s or Optare Solos.

 

[cnjb8]

The new Panther LE is amazing. It would work very well in the highlands where there are long, local rural services that need both coach comfort and easy access.

Maybe Plaxton should start making a 12m two-axle Panther LE soon, to be honest.

Plaxton has said they will if asked.

No one else has brought any. Red Arrow from trent, what happened to them looking at it.

They aren't ordering any buses or coaches for 2019. I'd wait until 2020. They should be upgraded every 5 years with the last one in 2015

 

[Jordan Adam]

The new Panther LE is amazing. It would work very well in the highlands where there are long, local rural services that need both coach comfort and easy access.

Maybe Plaxton should start making a 12m two-axle Panther LE soon, to be honest.

They're totally useless for Stagecoach Bluebird and Stagecoach Highlands for the following reasons...

• Too under powered (7.6L engine powering what is pretty much a 15M coach)
• Too long for many routes
• Capacity is poor
• Running costs are too high
• No luggage space

A 12M Panther LE would have the seat capacity comparable to that of an Optare Solo, so a truly idiotic idea if i'm brutally honest...
The only routes where there's been any real complaints about accessibility are on those operated by Interdecks (X7, Buchan Xpress & X98/X99). The only reason they bought Enviro400s for the 35 is because they were having capacity issues and you can't have anything longer than 12M on the route.

 

[overthewater]

Apart for certain times, and drivers smashing the tail wing, the Panther LE are not bad coaches. Said coaches can happily can go to Glasgow will a full load. provide a better class of travel sitting while give better Wheelchair access. Must be other route that would deem worthy?

* Trent barton Red Arrow?
* X17 in Warwick?

Is there any other routes like that?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Apart for certain times, and drivers smashing the tail wing, the Panther LE are not bad coaches. Said coaches can happily can go to Glasgow will a full load. provide a better class of travel sitting while give better Wheelchair access. Must be other route that would deem worthy?

* Trent barton Red Arrow?
* X17 in Warwick?

Is there any other routes like that?

That's the issue though, what may work in Fife won't necessarily work in North Scotland, two very different landscapes. You name pretty much any Bluebird/Highland coach operated route and there will be a fairly simple reason as to why they wouldn't work, it's just part of the nature of them being custom built vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

Anywhere in England?

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

The Panther LE was built for a very niche market hence the lack of orders.

In my opinion, all Highland routes north of Inverness (except for the X98 and X99 which are way too long and are really fast, where you would want a real high floor coach instead) are suitable for Panther LEs, or even real buses like ADL E300s or Optare Solos.

Not entirely sure that you know what you're on about here. The Highlands of Scotland have some very challenging terrain which a Panther LE wouldn't manage. There are also operational requirements (schools, passengers with luggage, etc) to take into account.

Between a 12m Panther, and a 14.5m Panther LE, logistically a 12m Panther would be the better option for Highland for a number of reasons - higher capacity per metre, luggage space, generally comfier, easier to navigate... the list goes on.

Might want to back up your points before spewing them on here next time.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The Panther LE was built for a very niche market hence the lack of orders.


Not entirely sure that you know what you're on about here. The Highlands of Scotland have some very challenging terrain which a Panther LE wouldn't manage. There are also operational requirements (schools, passengers with luggage, etc) to take into account.

Between a 12m Panther, and a 14.5m Panther LE, logistically a 12m Panther would be the better option for Highland for a number of reasons - higher capacity per metre, luggage space, generally comfier, easier to navigate... the list goes on.

Might want to back up your points before spewing them on here next time.

The reason why I think LE buses with coach comfort (and with a hp of anything above 300-320) would work well in the Highlands is because I believe everybody should have the right to use any bus, and yes that includes the disabled. A LE bus with coach comfort up to 12m can make the service reliable, because if a disabled would try and get on, they can simply get on in a matter of seconds (just wait for the ramp to be deployed) and find the wheelchair space, and there you go.

No, the Highland routes should be served with 12m Panther LEs (if ADL ever bother making it), not with 14.5m. Of course the 14.5m version will be way too long for many Highland routes, that's why I said 12m Panther LE.

A high floor coach would make the service unreliable because if you are a disabled person trying to get on, you would have to wait a good 1-2 minutes for the lift to be ready, then 3 minutes for the lift to go up, then another 3-4 minutes for the lift to go down. It will make the service very late. High floor coaches in my opinion are suited to fast, long distance services, like the X98 and X99 in the case of Highlands.

For capacity issues, mainly school buses, the solution is a double decker. Simple. I live in the South East of the UK, and many of our school buses are run with double deckers. These include with, but not limited to, Volvo B7TL, Dennis Tridents, Scania OmniCity DDs, ADL Enviro400s etc.

Any low floor bus (or bus / coach hybrid) that has an hp bigger than 300 can easily manage tough geographical conditions, and the B8RLE on the Panther LE is 350 hp. Perfect, isn't it?

X98/X99 are an exception. The routes are way too long and fast, and are also very popular, so you'd want a proper fully high floor coach on those routes as you can get more luggage space.

Lol, if you think that every route in the Highlands needs comfort (ok I agree with that), then every Stagecoach bus & coach route should be Stagecoach Gold lol, including the coach services X98/X99.

@Jordan Adam The Panthers on the 35 got replaced by MMCs because Stagecoach are trying to improve wheelchair accessibility, and they are doing the absolute right thing on that.

@ross4122 "Spewing them on here next time." Mate I'm entitled to my own opinion, and I believe you should know this.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The reason why I think LE buses with coach comfort (and with a hp of anything above 300-320) would work well in the Highlands is because I believe everybody should have the right to use any bus, and yes that includes the disabled. A LE bus with coach comfort up to 12m can make the service reliable, because if a disabled would try and get on, they can simply get on in a matter of seconds (just wait for the ramp to be deployed) and find the wheelchair space, and there you go.

No, the Highland routes should be served with 12m Panther LEs (if ADL ever bother making it), not with 14.5m. Of course the 14.5m version will be way too long for many Highland routes, that's why I said 12m Panther LE.

A high floor coach would make the service unreliable because if you are a disabled person trying to get on, you would have to wait a good 1-2 minutes for the lift to be ready, then 3 minutes for the lift to go up, then another 3-4 minutes for the lift to go down. It will make the service very late. High floor coaches in my opinion are suited to fast, long distance services, like the X98 and X99 in the case of Highlands.

The number of wheelchair users is rather low in the Highlands so it's not much of an issue, there's not a huge difference in board times between a standard Panther and Panther LE as in both cases you still need to secure the chair down with straps. While it is perfectly true a ramp is more reliable it's not any real issue.

As stated already a 12M Panther LE would have the seat capacity comparable to that of a Solo, so utterly useless.

For capacity issues, mainly school buses, the solution is a double decker. Simple. I live in the South East of the UK, and many of our school buses are run with double deckers. These include with, but not limited to, Volvo B7TL, Dennis Tridents, Scania OmniCity DDs, ADL Enviro400s etc.

High winds prohibit the use of deckers in North Scotland, the allocation of them on the 35 has already been controversial as whenever there's another major storm they're going to be stuck in the depot, At the start of 2018 alone we had 3 Interdecks topple over in the space of a week. 2019 hasn't seen any major storm as of yet.

It's already company policy here that whenever winds exceed a certain limit as many deckers as possible are restricted to city work only with single deckers and conventional coaches going out to replace them.

Again what may work in the south East of England won't necessarily work here. It's fairly evident you have limited understanding of the operation requirements

Any low floor bus (or bus / coach hybrid) that has an hp bigger than 300 can easily manage tough geographical conditions, and the B8RLE on the Panther LE is 350 hp. Perfect, isn't it?

X98/X99 are an exception. The routes are way too long and fast, and are also very popular, so you'd want a proper fully high floor coach on those routes as you can get more luggage space.

Not really true, BHP is irrelevant. It's engine capacity and torque that's more relevant. A 4x2 B11R is far more suitable than a under powered 6x2 B8RLE, BHP may be the same however the bigger engine in the B11R means their under less strain which helps when it comes to longevity and reliability.

Lol, if you think that every route in the Highlands needs comfort (ok I agree with that), then every Stagecoach bus & coach route should be Stagecoach Gold lol, including the coach services X98/X99.

It's all operation requirements. Most School contracts in the Highlands require 50 or 70 seaters, so single deckers are too small while deckers are too expensive. Look at Aviemore for example, they have some duties where the bus does a school run and then a long rural local run, the contract requires 70 seaters, as such they have 3 Plaxton Profiles that have been converted to have 70 seats. This means that they meet the requirement for the school contract but are also not running an expensive unsuitable deckers on the offpeak service part of the duty.

As for comfort, actually i would say it's more important here as the road conditions in South East England are completely different to North Scotland. Additionally due to the high amount of tourism and lower frequency services we need vehicles with under floor luggage capacity. This is even more relevant for the Highlands Opco where the bulk of the bus users are tourists.

The Panthers on the 35 got replaced by MMCs because Stagecoach are trying to improve wheelchair accessibility, and they are doing the absolute right thing on that.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but sadly you suffer from being factually inaccurate. The only reason the 35 got E400MMCs is because there has been capacity issues between Aberdeen and Banff and there's not the resources to increase the frequency on the service. As i've stated in my previous reply vehicles longer than 12 Metres are not certified to operate the service due to many narrow sections along the route, particularly at Buckpool. It doesn't improve wheelchair accessibility because the previous vehicles can carry the exact same number of chairs. Lastly there has actually been a string of complaints about the E400MMCs since they entered service, primarily due to them being unsuitable for such a long route and not having a toilet.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Ok, sorry for spreading some bulls**t, I just feel that everybody should have the right to use a bus service, including the disabled.

Ok, coaches could maybe work on local rural services but strictly school contracts only. Otherwise, I believe a low floor bus (outside of school hours) is better, for the reasons stated above. (Again these are my opinions)

And actually, what you exactly stated above would explain why every Stagecoach Highland bus has seat belts, even including the E300s and Optare Solos, for example.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Ok, sorry for spreading some bulls**t, I just feel that everybody should have the right to use a bus service, including the disabled.

Ok, coaches could maybe work on local rural services but strictly school contracts only. Otherwise, I believe a low floor bus (outside of school hours) is better, for the reasons stated above. (Again these are my opinions)

But a coach isn't prohibiting anyone, the only cases where there's been any real issues are when it comes to the Plaxton Interdecks (and i totally agree that they're unsuitable). Buchan is a fairly good example, when the Interdecks came bus users were "demanding" that Stagecoach bring back the Panthers that operated the service previously, but at the same time they complain whenever a low floor bus (which many bus users think should only be used on city services) are allocated to cover for a defective vehicle. A while back a Enviro300 caught fire near Peterhead on a 61, comments on social media were littered with people criticising Stagecoach for allocating a "city type bus" on the route (that's despite the vehicle having DP seating).

It's not cost effective to have one vehicle for one school run and then another vehicle for some offpeak local work. You're paying double the running costs pretty much. This is much more relevant up here where many of the services are council funded and either run at a loss or just about break even. Coaches are just far more viable for the network.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

One curious question, why are Interdecks inacessible? I thought they had a wheelchair bay in the lower deck?

 

[Jordan Adam]

One curious question, why are Interdecks inacessible? I thought they had a wheelchair bay in the lower deck?

Because the staircase is far too steep and certain parts of the routes they operate are hail and ride so a passenger may have to go downstairs while the vehicle is moving to signal where they want off.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Because the staircase is far too steep and certain parts of the routes they operate are hail and ride so a passenger may have to go downstairs while the vehicle is moving to signal where they want off.

Hmmmm, interesting.

Btw, although it's true that the engine litre is important, HP is also important because the bigger the HP, the more powerful the bus/coach vehicle will be.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Hmmmm, interesting.

Btw, although it's true that the engine litre is important, HP is also important because the bigger the HP, the more powerful the bus/coach vehicle will be.

That is perfectly true. It's just when it comes to larger vehicles displacement is more important. A B11R 4X2 and B8RLE / Panther LE have roughly the same BHP, however the B11R is more suitable because the bigger engine means that it's doing less work. In other words it's not about "if" it can get up a hill, but more rather how easily it gets up a hill.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Ok, you do have a good point there. A B11R may perform better than a B8RLE due to the bigger engine, but I still think the B8RLE won't have many issues climbing a hill.

It's when you put something like a Streetlite for example when you'll have the real issue lol

 

[Jordan Adam]

Ok, you do have a good point there. A B11R may perform better than a B8RLE due to the bigger engine, but I still think the B8RLE won't have many issues climbing a hill.

It's when you put something like a Streetlite for example when you'll have the real issue lol

You've still missed the point, the B8RLE may get up the hill - but it's about how much strain the engine is under. Simply put the B11R has far more endurance, especially given the hilly nature of the routes in North Scotland.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

You've still missed the point, the B8RLE may get up the hill - but it's about how much strain the engine is under. Simply put the B11R has far more endurance, especially given the hilly nature of the routes in North Scotland.

Fair enough. Maybe a B11RLE (single deck version if Volvo ever makes one) for Panther LE would be the solution, but then again, the issue will be with local services interworking with school services that require coaches with at least 70 seats.

Btw, there are hilly routes in North Scotland run with ADL Enviro300s, such as the 80, 81 and 82 in Thurso.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

And before I forget, B11RLE in 12m version I mean.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

To make myself clear once again.

"The hilly routes in North Scotland such as the 80, 81 and 82 in Thurso" are run with ADL Enviro300s.

B11RLE in 12m version would the best solution for a Panther LE in North Scotland, but then the issue will be the school services as @Jordan Adam rightly stated due to the Panther LE in 12m having the max seats as a Solo.

 

[Jordan Adam]

To make myself clear once again.

"The hilly routes in North Scotland such as the 80, 81 and 82 in Thurso" are run with ADL Enviro300s.

B11RLE in 12m version would the best solution for a Panther LE in North Scotland, but then the issue will be the school services as @Jordan Adam rightly stated due to the Panther LE in 12m having the max seats as a Solo.

While E300s do appear on the 80/81/82 most duties are coach operated. Caithness only have 3 E300s. Anyway a E300 is totally different to a Panther LE, not to mention far lighter.

 

[Alex 2901]

Must be other route that would deem worthy?

* Trent barton Red Arrow?
* X17 in Warwick?

Is there any other routes like that?

The X17? Apart from it being an all stops service, and not really one that warrants brand new vehicles (cascaded E400s would almost certainly be fine), there isn't really that much fast running on it (between Leamington and Kenilworth Square, and Kenilworth Park Lane and Gibbet Hill Road at most).

While the X18 (Coventry to Evesham) could do with DP type vehicles, Panther LEs are a terrible solution, and would almost certainly cause more issues than they'd solve, due to having nowhere near the capacity required (most X18s require deckers)

 

[SouthEastBuses]

While E300s do appear on the 80/81/82 most duties are coach operated. Caithness only have 3 E300s. Anyway a E300 is totally different to a Panther LE, not to mention far lighter.

I know, I was just making a point that there are low floor buses running north of Inverness, just not as common as coaches.