Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Trip Planning & Reports' started by 47403, 3 Feb 2018.
Yeah you’re probably right. He’s a good sport though and will probably enjoy reading it all.
Hey don't let me stop you. If folk wanna add to the thread, then that's fine by me.
I'm sorry its taken so long to reply Mr far north 37 but thank you for the kind words. I somehow missed this reply, better late than never.
Inverness took a fair few of the 37/0's, I bow down to your superior knowledge on 37017 and 26014.
I bumped into a friend of mine yesterday, who's a fair bit younger than I and he was asking, if I'd been old enough to bash the deltics, sadly not was my reply. I admitted, I'd wished I was, also adding, I'd have liked a few trips behind the 40s too, they seemed more plentiful around Newcastle at the time too.
He got on asking about some of the more interesting moves in and around Newcastle in my days? I suddenly felt ancient but the moves above got mentioned. His response of wow, they sounded like great times. I agreed they were but it reminded me of times when a good friend of mines, older brother used to regail his stories, to my friends and I, the next generation so to speak, I now know how he felt. We were a captive audience, my mate used to say, oh here we go, your boring man, go do something else will ya. We used to say, oh shut up man, gan make a cuppa and we happily sat listening to tales of Deltic bashing, multi traction Rail tours, the old Merrymaker tours and tales from a weeks, Freedom of Scotlands. Riding 25s, 26s, 27s, 37s 40s, 47s and Deltics, they had us spellbound.
I recently read the book, Rail Rover- Scotland in the 70s and 80s by Arnie Furniss, its slightly photo heavy but it doesn't distract from a very good read. Not that I ever doubted my mates brothers tales but on reading said book, it reminded me of him and despite my mate, telling his brother to bore off, it merely confirmed similar tales he'd been telling us the mid 80s..
I'll bow down to your superior knowledge on 37017 and 26014, I thought the 26 might have been one of HA's or ED's machines. Certainly puts a bit more meat on the bones if it was a Nessy one.
I must get a look for that book sounds a good read as you know yourself times changed a lot back when i started in the hobby seeing a dmu was such a rarity you wouldn’t believe it if someone said they did.
As for 26014 your right it was an early escapee from inverness in the early 80s and was a haymarket loco as you rightly guessed last time i seen it it was in a row of withdrawn 26s behind the wall at perth station.
I was looking over some old posts and saw a few folk were looking for some nostalgic posts.and seen as we have a few new folk on here I've decided to rehash some old posts, i apologise wholeheartedly to those who've already read these witterings on.
A Different way of Doing thingsIn the late 80's something new turned up for the lads and I, now bashing and spotting had slowly lost some of the regular lads, Cal, who was the master of the timetable, his visits to Tyne Yard got less frequent and slowly drifted off the scene altogether. Mavis, our light fingered friend, moved away because his Dad got a good job down South, much to WH Smith's delight no doubt, we were gutted not only to lose a very good friend but it also meant, we had to pay full price for platform 5 books and Rail Enthusiast magazine I always thought he'd end up as a magician, he was so slight of hand. We were young and now i realise, the trouble he couldve landed himself in, silly when you look back. We lost a few but somehow recruited a few new lads, who went full hog into the hobby but drifted by the wayside just as quick as they'd came. Leaving just 3 of the original 6, who were John, Glen and I.
However one evening at Tyne Yard, a few of us were sat on the fence at the end of the bridge, as Glen arrived, with a cheery evening boys, he produced a couple of sheets of paper, which he unfolded and said, lads I've got to show you this, the usual jokes ensued, I'm not looking at it, if its green go and see the doctor or oh, you've got the letter to confirm the date of your sex change, Glen answered in his usual manner but went on, I've been passed this list, from someone he knew and proceeded to showed us a list of organised bus trips, roughly 1 a month for the year, visiting depots, stations, works and stabling points over every point of the Country. You go overnight on a Friday evening till late Saturday and the bigger trips included 2 nights with a one night Bed n Breakfast included. He'd certainly got our attention, as we poured over the list, the prices stood out immediatley, they were a damn sight cheaper than what we were shelling out for a bashing day here n there. The Yorkshire and Nottinghamshire Depots and Stabling points trip, stood out like a sore thumb, it ticked big boxes for us all. The list was as follows :-
Thornaby(hillside), Knottingley,Doncaster Station, Worksop, Shirebrook, Coalville, Barrow Hill, Derby Works, Toton, Tinsley, Healey Mills(bank side) Holbeck, York, (the siding next to the NRM).
Woah Glen mate, you've hit a home run there alright mate, I said. The lines in our platform 5's were devoid of these new fangled Class 58's and units, South of Donny, would be major gap fillers too. For us though getting amongst the bones, in their natural habitat of Notts was obviously the big temptation.
We all needed permission ofcourse and My dad was his usual self, how much? I offered to pay for the trip, if he stumped up some spends, my Dad readily agreed, John n Glen got permission too, so a day after, Glen booked us all on the trip, we were chuffed to bits but I only had roughly 3 weeks to save the cash.
2 nights after booking , I thought my Dad was gonna drop a bombshell on me, You know that trip you booked on, (inside I was screaming, don't you dare pull the plug on this) I said, yeah, what about it? He said, well you know Alan who you went to Crewe with, he helps organise them, hes going too. He says, you have to be at Central Station for 7.30, bus leaves at 8pm. I let out a huge sigh of relief, I can tell you.
On the day, we were at Central about 6 and just stood on the Station watching stuff come and go, before we walked off the station and went to one of the bus stops at 7.30. We got talking to some other cranks, who were also booked on the trip and climbed aboard the coach and bang on 8pm, we left bound for Stockton to pick up other folk, before viewing Thornaby from the bank side and getting back on board the bus, as i got on, Alan asked if I copped owt?, couple of shunters and a couple of 20's, I gleefully said, well its a start he said.
The organisers, who were all up front of the coach, certainly knew their stuff and i was shocked at the myriad of stuff they had to bribe depot foreman, from trays of dog or cat food, sometimes on entrance to a depot, the odd collection was had, for the lads Xmas fund, normally a couple of quid each, trays of beer, I seem to remember, broon ale was quite popular, as was the newest playboy calendar too.
En route to Knottingley the domino card came round, the winner gets half the kitty were told, the other half goes into the permit fund. John, Glen and I bought 2 each and vowed to split it 3 ways, if we won, which we didnt.
Around 11.30pm, 2 lads got off and went to see the foreman at Knottingley, no-one off the bus until the lads come back, 5mins later, we'd got permission to go round, the place was heaving with 56's, I snared a few of them, plus a couple of gronks. In amongst the lines of locos, were a couple of much needed 58's and we delightedly copped them. As we came off the depot, John, Glen and I, looked at each other and said, this is amazing.
After a quick peak round Doncaster station, we roped in the shunter, a couple of locos stabled and a few units parked in the platforms. John and I had a ciggy before getting back on the bus and went towards Donnie shed, however on asking if we could have a look see, the answer apparently a very swift No. Afterwards i promptly fell asleep.
Glen woke us up in the early hours of Saturday morning, howay lads, we're getting round Worksop. Again a few 56s were knocked off the list, including about half a dozen 58's too.
During them early hours of Saturday morning, it was sleep, followed with howay man, were getting round such n such, as the organisers and negotiators managed to get us around the lot of what we called the 58's stamping grounds, Shirebrook, Barrow Hill another one, whos name escapes me and although it was winding down at the time, we got round Coalville too.
I'd been round Tyne Yard, well the stabling point, not the yard itself and Gateshead shed but this was completely different. The sense of getting round these depots in the dead of night without a permit too, was amazing, walking through the lines of locos with a torch, trying to write the numbers down, added to the joy of it. We were copping boat loads, shunters and the 58's were big gains, 20's and 56s were biting the dust just as quick.
Surprisingly the night had flew over and by 8am, all the Depot's and stabling points in that area were done. So off we trooped at a truck stop for a well earned cuppa and breakfast. Suitably refreshed and stuffed to the gunnels, John and I had went outside and joined the throng, having a ciggy, by the coach, whilst contemplating what the day had yet to bring. Glen joined us outside and the 3 of us, spoke of the visits ahead. With permits for Tinsley and Toton, the cops list, would certainly rocket.
We got on the bus, i tried getting a bit more kip but excitement had replaced any need for sleep. The 3 of us spoke about getting some Class 13's underlined. We'd obviously seen pics of them at Tinsley, in various books n magazines but and were equally keen to get them underlined.
When we arrived into the car park at Tinsley, I just turned to both John and Glen and said, jesus, look at this lot. It was heaving, the lines of locos, both outside and inside the shed was staggering, knocking the 13's off was very pleasing indeed, some 20's, 31's, the odd 37, and a huge quantity of their 47's were all snared, it was a cop fest for us, I'd always imagined Tinsley would be good but not this good, this was awesome.
After a good hour or so, everyone assembled in the Car Park, I was having a ciggy when my Dads mate, Alan came over and asked the 3 of us, How it was going lads? bloody amazing so far, we'd replied, adding, jesus, this place is heaving aint it. Aye he said, theres a fair bit on today alright. You enjoying yourselves then? We puffed out our cheeks in exasperation and as one, all said, Aye!!. So do you think you'd do another, cos if you do., see the main man and he'll get your addresses and put you on the mailing list, for future trips. Count us in, cheers Alan, we'd all said. Alan left knowing full well, we'd be back and no doubt drag others with us.
About 5 mins after we got back on the coach, the main man came to see us, asking if we'd got much, how we were enjoying ourselves and asked our opinions on the itinerary?
We told him, it had been brilliant so far, we've copped loads, Tinsley, that was chocker mind wsnt it. He readily agreed but added, If you think thats good, wait till you get to Toton. I think we all just gawped at him. Needless to say, we gave our addresses and we were on the mailing list.
I somehow dropped off to sleep on the journey between Tinsley and Toton, with John shaking me, howay man, wake up, we're at Toton, just, as we got to the security gates, despite my grogginess, my eyes went as wide as saucers, at the sheer numbers of locos outside the place,. I gasped, F#&k Me, look at this lot, i looked at Glen and John, who's faces, spoke a million words without opening their mouths and said, this is gonna be amazing.
We just ran off the bus but were told to wait here for our guide. What seemed an everlasting 15mins our guide arrived and took us into every nook and cranny of the place. I loved every minute of it, i lost count of what I scratched off in Toton. we must've spent a good 2 hours in the place. I know for a fact, I'd managed to go from having seen just 1 class 58 before boarding the coach at Newcastle to having seen 32.
That was THE BEST EVER Depot visit, I ever had the pleasure to do. We got back on the bus and were grinning from ear to ear, saying how amazing was that. I put a huge dint in my class 20 requirements, I was down from needing about 50 in total, to nearly wiping all but 4 of Toton and Tinsley's 20's, the rest were all Scottish ones, I think I needed 16 after this trip and gronks, were snared at rapid rates too.
By now its about 3pm, next stop Derby Station, was shouted up the bus, a chance get a bit down time, a bit time to pick of some units and more importantly a bite to eat. We hammered the stations buffet, coffee, crisps and Mars Bars done the trick, after the hour or so at Derby Station, we left to visit Derby Works but apart from a few shunters and a couple of loco's stabled close by, there wasnt much else to see really, we seemed to be in and out in half an hour, I vaguely remember, at the time, they were building some new units but I can't for the life of me remember which ones they were.
I have to admit after the works I truly zonked on the bus, I was only half awake on that bank side at Healey Mills, my mate was calling out numbers picked up with bino's and I was on auto pilot just writing them down. I climbed back aboard the bus, had what seemed like 5 more mins shut eye before my mate John was shaking me awake saying, haway man, we're getting round Holbeck. I mouttered something incoherently but rapidly got off the bus to see an an old guy resembling Alfred Hitchcock, shouting, with a thick Yorkshire accent, get t numbers of t locos you see and get away before t'other foreman comes on.
We did just that and to be fair there was a canny bit on too, I saw a 47 with a white roof and 1st thing that comes into my mind is, please be 47579, it was among the last of my last 4 SF 47's I needed, I picked off what was on view in front of me and walked round the back of the front line of loco's, to see what was behind, especially the one with the white roof, 4 7 5 7 and 9, I shouted, get in there, John called me a jammy so and so, I didn't care, don't you need it too, I asked, he replied, rather industrially, no, you know I'm after 580, oops sorry mate, I'd forgot then laughed.
Holbeck proved to be the last visit of the trip too, with everyone tiring the decision to hit York was scratched and it was straight home after dropping off some lads on Teeside.
It was an exhausting 24+ hours but very wortwhile, it was the first of many of them coach trips and even though i went to all four corners of the UK and between, I always fondly remember that trip.
47403, I've just made myself late for the school run after having started reading at 07:45 your above (Nearly) War & Piece scale posting lol! Seriously though I thoroughly enjoyed it start to finish. You and several others on here have a great talent for writing and you should really get it down on paper and take it to a publisher. Blimey my eyelids were getting heavy just sat here reading about that marathon, but I suppose when you're still just kids you have an abundance of energy, thanks for taking the time and effort to type all that, its very much appreciated!
Yep from me too (although no school run for me today ).
Loved it. That SF silver roof must’ve stuck out like a spotlight in that sea of grubby BR blue at Toton...
I did bunk Toton in the eighties (amongst others). Never made it to Tinsley though which looked immense.
Nostalgic Bliss LSG. I can see in my minds eye the coach, the clothes, the oil and muck everywhere, (the Playboy Calendar! ), the shiny new 58s, all of it...
Ah yes the Playboy Calendar, absolutely fantastic stuff! Regarding Tinsley; never got there myself but Toton I managed about 3 times, the first visits being 1973/74, never had a problem getting round there either...
Ash and Cowley, get the biccys and a flask made up for the next couple then. We used to ask to look at the playboy calendar, the main man used to say, Gis a look at your palms, when we'd show him our hands he'd laugh and say, not yet lads, your too innocent at the minute, see me next trip.
I'm a bit too innocent to understand that one!
Although I've read that particular tape before, it still hits me as a great read. No chance of that sort of thing happening these days eh!
Alex said- Although I've read that particular tape before, it still hits me as a great read. No chance of that sort of thing happening these days eh!
Ain't that the truth Alex, health and safety goons barely allow any depot visits these days. Not as great a selection of locos to view on the mainline these days either. At least some of them are still active
I was aware of these epic bus trips from the north east but never went on one.
Sounds like I missed out on some memorable experiences!
You certainly missed out. There was some wonderful characters on board.
LSG - Your bus trips were not unique in being full of characters. I did a few in my number crunching days. The ones that I remember best were a full day tour of the sheds in the Central Belt in Scotland when there used to be day excursions from Bristol to Edinburgh. Full of characters and run by Bristol's equivalent of a " Battersea Wide-Boy".
I also recall one to Immingham and Doncaster which took in numerous installations in South Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Nottinghamshire. I don't recall Toton being on the advertised list but we certainly turned up and as you describe, the party leaders went into the office with a bag of "goodies". While the leaders were away, binos were dusted off and the coach ended up leaning at an angle while we all tried to knock off as many locos as possible. But ten minutes later after a successful negotiation, we were given the nod, split into groups of 10 and conducted around the depot
Your certainly right Keith, I remember various adverts in the railway magazines for different Railway groups trips.
We got refused round Immingham on one trip due to them having already 3 coach trips on it that day.
Going to the Local
As I've said elsewhere on this forum, time money and opportunities to go anywhere are very much at a premium at the moment. Sad to say as we rapidly approach June, I've not made one Railway related trip out at all this year. In fact getting anytime to myself has been in fits n starts. So with the aid of RTT I've wandered out to see anything remotely interesting by the lineside at Low Fell Junction or somewhere near it.
The introduction of Colas Plugs on Engineers trains from Doncaster and Cemment trains from Oxwellmains to either Seaham or West Thurrock, has seen me pester those great people on the TOPS thread time n time again. Whilst I always thank them when I receive said Gen, I will take this time too again to say, Many thanks to all for their time and efforts, it really is appreciated and a local Facebook page, has been an incredible help too.
My sporadic quest to see something interesting lineside started a couple of months back, when I saw a Craigentinny to Loughborough working, I've seen many of these, normally running the opposite way but you don't have to have the IQ of Stephen Fry to know what's en route with a headcode of 0Z73. So I meandered down to a spot of see said working. I have all the Cally ED's but I decided to go regardless, keeping a beady eye on RTT, these have the propensity to run rather late or really bloody early. This day, it was bang on, if not a tad early. Today's offering was 73966
I also stood for a while watching to see if LNER Set BN14 was out, them 2 remaining coaches I need are starting to grate. Not easy either when they're flying past about 60mph but still no luck the hunt goes on. In the following months I've sporadically ventured to the same spot or down to Low Fell Junction itself.
I've also managed to reel in a few more required GB Sheds, so it's kind of kept me ticking over, I've sometimes went without gen and saw stuff that wasn't required but that's the luck of the draw.
2 weeks ago I actually had 2 days off together and after breakfast I'd noticed a few noteworthy movements on RTT. A Haymarket to Loughborough, Crewe Heritage Centre to Tyne Yard and the Colas Donnie - Millerhill working, which used to be in the hands of a DRS Cockwork Cat but has been passed over to Colas, who'd been plonking Colas grids on the said turn, however more interestingly, for me at least, lately its been seen with Colas Plugs on it. Needless to say I fancied witnessing these.
I got ready and meandered down to Low Fell Junction, its a good 20 minute walk from my house to get there. It's a place I tend to go to a lot now but have tended to visit on and off for many years. I remember one visit there, albeit many, many a year ago, standing by the allotments by the lineside, with a few fellow cranks, waiting to see a Tour go past, "The Last Train to Consett", my mate Cal had kindly asked if I wanted to do the Tour, with his dad and him but when he said 46026 was doing the honours, I politely declined. Here we stood waiting to see it come past, of course Cal was of the Wagon loving fraternity, so naturally, he was head out the window as it dawdled by on the slow line. We all jokingly flipped him the V's, he flailed back at us and in return I mocked back as if I was slowly winding a crank. We all laughed about it.
Today I'm stood on the footbridge and awaited what was to come on the Haymarket to Loughborough move. Ironically at that time, when 46026 rolled past, we were more worried we'd get bowled by something we generally despised and here I was waiting for what I suspected to be on the 0Z43. Obviously that head code kinda gave the game away of what was going to Loughbotough. In truth, I'm still not keen on them but have a more grudging respect for them now. Although I admit, it will be strange not seeing them on the ECML, when LNERs new plastic tat takes over soon.
Anyhow, at 12.43, the 0Z43 comprising of duds for everything, 43003 and 43034 bolted together as if recreating a longer version of 89001, sailed by and disappeared into the distance. Not wholly interesting for me but that wasn't the point, it was railway related and I was out able to view it, that was the point. I watched the coming and goings for a bit them, dawdled off elsewhere for a walk returning a good while later to see the The NRMs Buldging Moneypit, 60103 plus support chuff through on its way to Tyne Yard. I'm not a huge fan of steam engines either(God what a miserable git I'm becoming) but I'm not oblivious to the charms they hold for people. However I can't for the life of me begin to wonder why folk run the risk of trespassing to get a better shot of it. The pics that made social media, especially of those 2 guys standing trackside, one with camera n tripod with an approaching voyager in the background is just beyond belief. If your not worried about your health, fine, but for Christ sake then, think of the other drivers well being instead, you bloody fools.
I was going to make my way homeward and go to the spot I'd seen the 73 pictured above to see the Colas plug on the Donnie - Millerhill. However I decided to stay put, thinking I may miss it by the time I got there. I'd saw on a facebook page, 70809 was on it yesterday, I didn't have my platform 5 with me and was certain 70809 was a cop, so I didn't want to miss that. After what only seemed half an hour later, the Donnie to Millerhill came into view and as it rounded the curve, what's more it's doubleheaded, could it be a double plug, so to speak. To my disbelief it was certainly a cop but in the form of 70817 with 56105 in tow. I was over the moon as I walked home and even more so, when I looked in my platform 5 and realised I didnt need 70809 anyway. Talk about getting lucky and more importantly, now I only need 2 colas plugs, 804 and 812 to clear them.
The next evening, I noticed I could walk down the road and see three workings in one fowl swoop. Two Intermodals, one from Mossend to Tees and one in the same but opposite direction. Just after that was a Toton to Oxwellmains cement working and a chance to see another Colas plug, I did try and pester our friend's in the TOPS thread but in their defence, I did it at very short notice, so the gen wasn't forthcoming till next day. I didn't hold it against them and still thanked the guy the next day. I arrived at my destination, same place i'd saw 73966 above, just after 21.00. At 21.08 red shed 66124 headed towards Tees, the Last flat wagon had barely cleared when PD Ports liveried, 66109 Teesport Express went in the opposite direction. A half cop of sorts, I needed the name plate at least. That had barely gone out of sight, when at 21.13, I heard the familiar roar of a 70s engines, as it climbed the hill up from Low Fell Junction, I tried to get a shot on my mobile but I mistakenly knocked the camera off. Doh!!!! Wasn't all bad news mind, as 70812 became my penultimate Colas plug was viewed for sight. Thus ending a very enjoyable 5minute spell of freight.
Recently I'd noticed on my infrequent visits to these very pages, Mr Train had been asking for some advice on visiting Newcasle. I'd offered what pearls of wisdom I could, and hoped theyd be of some help, without really knowing, when he was gonna be blessed to come and visit the Geordie Capital.
Fast forward to a few days later. I was browsing this very section, early on the Tuesday morning before work and realised he was coming that very day. So I sent Mr Train a pm and politely asked if he'd like some company after I'd finished work. Fortunately or unfortunately, depends whos side of the arguement you see it from, he said yes. So at half 4, I made the dash from work down to Central and had roughly a couple of hours in his company. Was very nice to meet Mr Train and his gen was very much appreciated too. I had a relatively profitable few hours at Central Station too, as I walked on to meet him, I was greeted by not only Mr Train but this too.
800105 kindly added itself to the book of sights and a breif look into whats just round the corner. They do look nice at the minute, i'll gladly admit that but its mainly because were new fangled. On another note, it will allow me the excuse to visit Central after work and add stuff to the book of sights too.
For now we can still regale in what's now present but will become the past all too soon. Here 91127 and 43272 discuss their retirement plans.
I don't want to detract from what will no doubt be a great read from Mr Trains trip report but whilst he and I were talking, a DVT slotted round the bend past the castle keep and into Central, now this DVT sent me into a spin, now 82206 is far from spectacular but on seeing it, my eyes went as wide as saucers, I checked the front coach in sheer silence, once that went past I bent forward slightly staring intently on the stocks numbers, 11414, then 11314, the sight of 10332 merely confirmed my feelings, this was set BN 14, 10332 and 11526 had fallen, at long last, now all of LNERs stock was cleared. These long awaited clearance cannons could be dusted down and fired.
The time with Mr Train, flew over as we talked a myriad of subjects and chewed the fat. Needless to say he offered me some gen, that I won't divulge until he's done his trip report, needless to say after Mr Train departed homeward, I stayed on to see 70812 pass through on a Seaham to Oxwellmains cement turn and cop another before I too departed homeward.
Great read sir.
Not done much either this year but I did go out and do a day Devon Rover with Mrs C a couple of weeks ago.
I agree with you about Scotsman by the way. People go nuts over it.
Nice read- sounds like you are enjoying yourself, which is the most important thing of the hobby.
I remember that nedex to Consett, and also viewed it from the lineside. One extra detail to add is that the train carried a 'tailboard' which was the number of the last 9F to work to Consett, IIRC.
Thanks for the kind words guys, I honestly can't remember the tail board, I was too busy giving Cal grief but your not wrong, at least being able to get out and enjoy it, it's better than nowt at all but I do crave a real trip away somewhere but I will post this on here.
Cowley I'm glad I'm not alone. These guys going nuts over The Bulging Moneypit really flabbergast me.
Sounds like your book of sights keeps on getting filled up with various locos & new bits & bobs
Trying to Kite.
It's all lies guys, I've never met this man in my life. And I most definitely did not enjoy his delicious cheese scones (yes, these are a thing) and a lovely mug of coffee
Was certainly a good couple of hours mate, and all in all a good day out for me. I promise that I am making slow progress towards getting my trip report done, hopefully have at least some of it posted this evening
I still can't believe you'd never had cheese scones before.
You should have bought him a ham and peas pudding stottie. It would have blown his mind!
I did ask if he wanted any sarnies but Mr Train had a bag full. I'd made some pease pudding at work and sage n onion stuffing too.
I don’t know why but I’m feeling really hungry right now...
Thank goodness I'm reading this while having food at the pub. Nice to read that you're picking up cops at your locality. Look forward to more dispatches from the Northeast.
Nice read there, sir.
Congratulations on getting the last of the LNER stuff.
As a local, can you tell me why there is a 50 limit for such a silly long stretch of the A1(M) around the Low Fell area (I'm sure it used to be only the Team Valley area) ... it really is taking the proverbial.