LU Platform Clocks

[Nunners]

A while ago I noticed, while standing on the H&C platforms at Paddington that the platform clocks on the underground were showing different times to the National Rail platform clocks.

Today, I noticed at Vauxhall that the Victoria Line platform clock was about 8 or 9 minutes behind "actual time".

Does anyone know what these clocks are synchronised with, and what would cause such a big error?

 

[Recessio]

A while ago I noticed, while standing on the H&C platforms at Paddington that the platform clocks on the underground were showing different times to the National Rail platform clocks.

Today, I noticed at Vauxhall that the Victoria Line platform clock was about 8 or 9 minutes behind "actual time".

Does anyone know what these clocks are synchronised with, and what would cause such a big error?

That clock at Vauxhall had been wrong for months when I used to live there (~18 months ago). I really hope it hasn't been wrong all this time... surely it would have needed adjusting anyway for the end of daylight savings time?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The clocks at Liverpool Street ( Circle ) were all still on BST on Monday...

 

[Mawkie]

The three platform clocks at Cockfosters all show a different time. As do two at Arnos Grove. It's hardly rocket science, and we've had clocks that set themselves for decades, but I saw a contractor manually adjusting the Arnos clock the other week. The train crew accommodation at Acton showed the correct minute, but wrong hour, and the TCA at Arnos runs (thankfully) 3 minutes early. ‍

I would be interested to know why LU clocks can't set themselves and show a correct time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I would be interested to know why LU clocks can't set themselves and show a correct time.

Some might say that parts of Vauxhall has its own time zone... Quite possibly minus fifty years!

 

[Mojo]

I noticed the clocks at the bottom of the dot matrix indicator at my local station on the Central line are two minutes fast, even after the clock change. When services are running to schedule, the timer also counts down two minutes early but the train doesn’t ever leave nor the signal clear until scheduled.

 

[VydecRanger59]

I noticed the clocks at the bottom of the dot matrix indicator at my local station on the Central line are two minutes fast, even after the clock change. When services are running to schedule, the timer also counts down two minutes early but the train doesn’t ever leave nor the signal clear until scheduled.

Guys, let me know what station I’ll get them to fix it. Alternatively, tell the station supervisor and he’ll raise a job on them.

A while ago I noticed, while standing on the H&C platforms at Paddington that the platform clocks on the underground were showing different times to the National Rail platform clocks.

Today, I noticed at Vauxhall that the Victoria Line platform clock was about 8 or 9 minutes behind "actual time".

Does anyone know what these clocks are synchronised with, and what would cause such a big error?

Was it a digital clock, analogue (hands), or dot matrix clock? Digital clocks synchronise with a GPS or ‘MSF’ clock on the station, dot matrix clocks get their time from the local PC that feeds the info, time source varies line by line, Victoria Line small black DMIs are not synchronised, the PC clock free-runs and are often wrong. Some analogue clocks are ‘Heritage’ and require manual adjustment. Wrong time needs a job to be raised for them to get fixed. Let me know and I’ll either fix them myself or get someone else to. I’ll also let you know why they were wrong in the first place.

 

[Recessio]

Guys, let me know what station I’ll get them to fix it. Alternatively, tell the station supervisor and he’ll raise a job on them.


Was it a digital clock, analogue (hands), or dot matrix clock? Digital clocks synchronise with a GPS or ‘MSF’ clock on the station, dot matrix clocks get their time from the local PC that feeds the info, time source varies line by line, Victoria Line small black DMIs are not synchronised, the PC clock free-runs and are often wrong. Some analogue clocks are ‘Heritage’ and require manual adjustment. Wrong time needs a job to be raised for them to get fixed. Let me know and I’ll either fix them myself or get someone else to. I’ll also let you know why they were wrong in the first place.

For Vauxhall at least, the wrong clocks are on the bottom row of dot matrix indicator boards on the platforms - the boards that also tell you when the next trains are.

As I said above they were wrong when I last lived in Vauxhall 18 months ago, so it would be interesting to know if they've been wrong this whole time despite changes to/from BST - or if they were just recently adjusted for BST to GMT, then how have they already slipped so far in a short period of time?

 

[VydecRanger59]

For Vauxhall at least, the wrong clocks are on the bottom row of dot matrix indicator boards on the platforms - the boards that also tell you when the next trains are.

As I said above they were wrong when I last lived in Vauxhall 18 months ago, so it would be interesting to know if they've been wrong this whole time despite changes to/from BST - or if they were just recently adjusted for BST to GMT, then how have they already slipped so far in a short period of time?

The time shown on these is what the PC internal clock is set to. Periodically it gets set via the keyboard on the PC. The PC clock drifts. They could be connected to the station Master Clock System but no-one wants to pay for it (that's what they tell us).

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They could be connected to the station Master Clock System but no-one wants to pay for it (that's what they tell us).

Surely it would take one person five minutes with the Net Time Synchtool to sort this out? No need to get any IT contractors in?

 

[Recessio]

The time shown on these is what the PC internal clock is set to. Periodically it gets set via the keyboard on the PC. The PC clock drifts. They could be connected to the station Master Clock System but no-one wants to pay for it (that's what they tell us).

Surely it would take one person five minutes with the Net Time Synchtool to sort this out? No need to get any IT contractors in?

I'm astonished by this, pretty sure Windows has had ntp time syncing built in since at least Windows XP. It's just an option in the control panel!

 

[VydecRanger59]

You’re correct, but the Windows PC at Vauxhall is not connected to any NTP source. It free runs. THAT’s why the time is wrong.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You’re correct, but the Windows PC at Vauxhall is not connected to any NTP source. It free runs. THAT’s why the time is wrong.

Where does it get the data from if it's not connected to anything?

Surely they're not seriously using an entire PC just to run a single clock display...?!

 

[rebmcr]

Windows doesn't rely on NTP while connected to an Active Directory domain, which would be best practice in any organisation the size of TfL. That's to ensure that there is no disagreement between machines communicating with each other.

In a remote deployment, away from an office building, this can mean that an automated time source is not readily available. Such as at a station, with no Domain Controller server nearby.

It would probably be wise to override the default, and reinstate the NTP behaviour that is familiar to 'civilian' users of Windows, but that sort of tweak suffers twofold in any organisation's IT team: 1) it's not a particularly high priority; and 2) it's very very easy to overlook.

 

[VydecRanger59]

Where does it get the data from if it's not connected to anything?

Surely they're not seriously using an entire PC just to run a single clock display...?!

It has a serial data feed from a Moxa terminal server. There's nothing connected to the Ethernet port (apart from the DMIs) Are you getting the picture?

 

[edwin_m]

It has a serial data feed from a Moxa terminal server. There's nothing connected to the Etherlnet port. Are you getting the picture?

I'm assuming the lack of internet connection is a cybersecurity precaution (but not expecting anyone to be able to confirm or deny that).

 

[Sunil_P]

The Old Man of Wanstead:

 

[lookapigeon]

I'm assuming the lack of internet connection is a cybersecurity precaution (but not expecting anyone to be able to confirm or deny that).

It wouldn't surprise me, as to pass cyber security certifications (such as Cyber Essentials) the items in scope your network needs to be in date and supported if it is connected to an internet facing network, or be isolated otherwise. Plus, the cost of updating all these devices at a time when TFL's finances are not particularly healthy is probably an arm and a few legs, also given the specialist nature of them - whether it is a dedicatd hardware device, or a PC not particularly easy either - old drivers/config, incompatabilty with newer OS etc.

The clock on the platform you see on Hounslow Central as you come up the stairs is often showing the wrong time, I think the asset tag is like CLK002 or something. I wonder if our resident time lord can fix this one!?

 

[VydecRanger59]

I had a look at this clock on Sunday, time was ok. It would have been checked on clock change day. I'm told it gets a 30 sec pulse from the station master clock (MCS) it would have originally had a pendulum or a battery, the mechanism has had an upgrade sometime for it to driven from the MCS.

 

[Craig1122]

The funny thing about this is that when I worked for one particular TOC there was a massive effort to get every clock showing the same time and every member of staff was issued with a watch. The rationale was that there was no chance of trains running on time if we couldn't even get that right. Yet apparently for LU it's the hardest thing in the world. Said TOC went from near the bottom to near the top of the performance league tables at the time.

 

[Basil Jet]

The funny thing about this is that when I worked for one particular TOC there was a massive effort to get every clock showing the same time and every member of staff was issued with a watch.

... a radio controlled watch with the TOC logo on it, by any chance?

 

[trebor79]

The clocks at Westminster on the mezzanines levels down to the Jubilee line are all 3 hours slow!

 

[lookapigeon]

I had a look at this clock on Sunday, time was ok. It would have been checked on clock change day. I'm told it gets a 30 sec pulse from the station master clock (MCS) it would have originally had a pendulum or a battery, the mechanism has had an upgrade sometime for it to driven from the MCS.

This clock does go askew from time to time when you're not looking, I was there last week and the time was about 7h ahead, time locally was 09:00 and the clock was displaying 17:00 (!). Interesting to hear the technology behind it, I was just under the impresssion it was operated under its owns steam and not driven from a central system.