LU to Network Rail track connections.

etr221

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As far as I know, the line from South Acton to Turnham Green was just for the coal trains to and from the Midland coal yard adjacent to Lillie Bridge LT yard. There used to be a line off the down District at West Kensington, as can be seen on this map.
There was, for a couple of years 1878-1880, a Midland operated Super Outer Circle service, from St Pancras via the Dudding Hill Loop to Earl's Court which used it (an earlier variant had taken Midland trains to Richmond); and it also provided access to a second Midland coal depot on the MDR, at High St Kensington.

The history of the railways of Kew and Gunnersbury was detailed (by J C Gillham) in the Railway Magazine of August and September 1956.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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If not, hopefully, dragging this thread too far off topic, are there any rail connections still extant between the heavy rail network and the Manchester Metrolink system. There is (or used to be) one between Altrincham and Navigation Road, if I rightly recall.
 

Dr_Paul

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There was, for a couple of years 1878-1880, a Midland operated Super Outer Circle service, from St Pancras via the Dudding Hill Loop to Earl's Court which used it (an earlier variant had taken Midland trains to Richmond); and it also provided access to a second Midland coal depot on the MDR, at High St Kensington. The history of the railways of Kew and Gunnersbury was detailed (by J C Gillham) in the Railway Magazine of August and September 1956.

I didn't know that about the Super Outer Circle; that would have been an interesting journey. We've discussed on this forum the practicalities of a revived passenger service along the Acton Wells to Cricklewood line.

I forgot about the yard at Kensington High Street; there was, when I last went through the station, some traces of the zig-zag ramp up to the yard, although the yard itself has been built on. It must have been quite a bother operating that yard with all the reverses.

I'll have a look at my dad's collection of the Railway Magazine, it should contain that issue; thanks for the reference.
 

rebmcr

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If not, hopefully, dragging this thread too far off topic, are there any rail connections still extant between the heavy rail network and the Manchester Metrolink system. There is (or used to be) one between Altrincham and Navigation Road, if I rightly recall.

Metrolink connects directly to the East Lancashire Railway at Bury (and hires maintenance equipment from them occasionally). ELR nominally has its own connection a little further north, to the Rochdale NR line, but I don't think it's seen any traffic in a long time.
 

LU_timetabler

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Wimbledon - East Putney is NR track, and occasionally a SWT empty stock movment from Wimbledon to the depot will run on the District line's route.
 

etr221

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Wimbledon - East Putney is NR track, and occasionally a SWT empty stock movment from Wimbledon to the depot will run on the District line's route.
Is it still NR these days? - I thought it was now TfL - they I think do the maintenance, and there was a recentish incident as there were a few metres of track that both thought was the other's responsibility, and it was in consequence rather deteriorated.
 

Mojo

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Wimbledon - East Putney is NR track, and occasionally a SWT empty stock movment from Wimbledon to the depot will run on the District line's route.
Is it still NR these days? - I thought it was now TfL - they I think do the maintenance, and there was a recentish incident as there were a few metres of track that both thought was the other's responsibility, and it was in consequence rather deteriorated.
I thought we’d discussed this before? Most of the Wimbledon branch line is actually LU track and not Network Rail. Network Rail however provide the power and signalling for the branch from a few locations just to the west of Putney Bridge station and consequentially most of the operational procedures are carried out how they would be on Network Rail.
 

swt_passenger

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The Wimbledon branch in the pre-COVID timetable had 20+ SWR moves every day, rather more than the “occasional” suggested earlier, because it’s still the easiest non conflicting route to the SWR depot.

But as I posted early on, I don’t think this route is the sort of thing the OP was after. He wanted examples of “seldom used engineering only” connections. There must be very few of them, far less than the list of normal shared running sections.
 

Class 170101

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Also a link from NLL to Bakerloo / Watford DC at Willesden Low Level. Just make sure the Bakerloo Line trains go straight on and don't turn left here.
 

Dstock7080

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Sorry if this is a stupid question, but can third rail trains get traction on the London underground 4 rail system?
There would be nowhere for the return current to go, fuses and track breakers would blow.
eg. Gunnersbury-Turnham Green 1991
© J.S Laker
 

etr221

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Sorry if this is a stupid question, but can third rail trains get traction on the London underground 4 rail system?
There would be nowhere for the return current to go, fuses and track breakers would blow.
Not so: they can, return current will go to earth via running rails, as in three rail (only) areas. But results will be unpredicatable and undesirable, as the train will be running on a much lower voltage (300-400v - so likely to draw much higher current), and there will return current in unexpected places, so not something to be done. In joint running areas, where there are both LU 4 rail and National Rail 3 rail electric trains, the 4th (centre) rail and running rails are electrically bonded (and to earth), and so it's all allowed for.
 

AlbertBeale

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Not so: they can, return current will go to earth via running rails, as in three rail (only) areas. But results will be unpredicatable and undesirable, as the train will be running on a much lower voltage (300-400v - so likely to draw much higher current), and there will return current in unexpected places, so not something to be done. In joint running areas, where there are both LU 4 rail and National Rail 3 rail electric trains, the 4th (centre) rail and running rails are electrically bonded (and to earth), and so it's all allowed for.

Yes - and in this latter case of course (with both types of train running on a 4-rail system, and the centre rail being linked to the running rail at earth voltage), the LU trains get enough voltage because the outside rail is at BR voltage (relative to earth) which is approx the same as the voltage difference between the positive and negative voltages of the two live rails on the LU system. As far as the motor is concerned, it's only the voltage difference which is relevant - plus-X volts to minus-Y volts being equivalent to (X+Y) volts to earth.
 

100andthirty

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Not so: they can, return current will go to earth via running rails, as in three rail (only) areas. But results will be unpredicatable and undesirable, as the train will be running on a much lower voltage (300-400v - so likely to draw much higher current), and there will return current in unexpected places, so not something to be done. In joint running areas, where there are both LU 4 rail and National Rail 3 rail electric trains, the 4th (centre) rail and running rails are electrically bonded (and to earth), and so it's all allowed for.
If a third rail train entered the LU only area there are all sorts of problems. Firstly, the TOC train might be out of gauge, and in the areas where this is a real worry - eg at Queen's Park, there are protections in the signalling system. For power, the train would be detected as having an earth fault and an alarm would sound in the control room. In fact the voltage will probably be at or close to the LU nominal voltage and not as described in the quote above. The LU nominal 630 V system is split with a nominal + 420 V and - 210 V. But I stress that the values are nominal; the system is known as "floating earth". The nominal + and - values are set by quite high value resistors between positive and negative rails and earth. However if a TOC train (or, indeed an Underground train with a negative earth fault) appears in a power section, the positive voltage to earth will "float" up to about + 630 V. This is one of the great benefits of the floating earth system as the system doesn't stop if there's a single earth fault. However it is very serious if there's a positive earth being investigated and a negative earth pops up in the same section. This causes lots of energy to flow and can cause lots of damage. Fortunately modern train have a earth fault monitoring built in and will isolate the circuits concerned.
 

Dave W

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I recall reading something about a temporary connection between the Great Eastern Line and the Victoria depot at Northumberland Park as it was the only way to initially deliver trains. Have I made that up in my head?

EDIT: No I haven’t - it’s here https://www.davros.org/rail/culg/victoria.html

This connection [between the Vic and Picc at Finsbury Park] was not ready when the first trains were ready for test running, and therefore a temporary connection was made between Northumberland Park Depot and the adjacent National Rail line.
 
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Whistler40145

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Has there ever been a connection from the District line near Lillie Bridge depot to the West London Line?
 

Meglos

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Not really a “seldom used engineering connection” either, but another shared route used 24/7...
2L10 which is the first passenger Basingstoke (04:55) - Waterloo (06:11) of the day (Weekdays only) is still pathed to work from the Up Slow @ Wimbledon (Platform 5) onto the District Lines to East Putney, and then via Point Pleasant Junction onto the Windsor line into Clapham Junction and onto Waterloo. The last Waterloo-Basingstoke used to be pathed the same route, and I travelled on it a few times, but I believed it's now pathed via the main line instead.

The last Waterloo-Surbiton train on a Saturday Night (actually 01:05? Sunday) used to leave from the old Eurostar platforms at Waterloo, and route via Point Pleasant Junction onto the District Line, before re-joining the main line at Wimbledon. The train carried on to Surbiton, and then went ECS to Hampton Court, and then ECS into Wimbledon Traincare Depot. I only travelled on this service once, however the time I used it was onboard the last service ever operated by South West Trains, as SWR took over the franchise at 02:00 on the Sunday morning.
 

Meglos

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When did it arrive at Surbiton?
My reply seems to have failed.

However it was the 01:42 from Platform 20 at Waterloo. The lead unit was 455702, and I have a photo of it at Waterloo, and again at Surbiton. The photo at Surbiton was at 02:19.

I'm surprised that there was a train running when the franchise handover took place.

Technically the franchise changed at 02:00, but the last scheduled service by SWT was still running at that point.
 

Gag Halfrunt

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You quoted my post and wrote your reply inside the quote tags.

Anyway, perhaps I should rephrase my remark: I was surprised that the handover was not scheduled for a time after the last train of the day had reached its destination.
 

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