Luggage on seats, and on crowded trains.

[duncanp]

It's not only luggage that can cause an obstruction.

Twice in two days I have had a situation where I have had to step over a dog that has been allowed by its' selfish owner to lounge in the gangway, completely blocking it.

Once was on a Virgin train from Glasgow to London, and the other was on a Southeastern train from St Pancras to Stratford.

And then you have the problem of people thinking that they own the table belonging to a group of four seats, and spread their Sunday Paper/Laptop/Food all over it.

I'd better stop now before I turn into Victor Meldrew

 

[Qwerty133]

their religion prevents them sitting next to someone the opposite gender,

the year is 2014 not 1814, their religion needs to move on!!!

 

[Greenback]

The issue here is the lack of decent luggage space on trains. I was shocked at how luggage unfriendly the Pacers are. They might be used on secondary routes, but these feed into the main lines, so surely having luggage space is important?

Ryan

I generally look quite negatively at people who don't put their luggage away,. but there are genuine issues on some types of stock with finding anywhere to put it.

On the 150's and Pacers out of Swansea I see people holding fairly large bags on their laps, as there's nowhere else for them to go. There can also be piles of luggage at the doors, in the aisles and on empty seats. Even if I have to stand, I don't ask people to move their suitcases on such occasions. Mine is only a short journey, and it would only create far too much of a fuss to try.

I got told off for sitting on someone's small suitcase on a seat on a full and standing Voyager once. I have a valid ticket, bag doesn't end of argument.

Someone did once have the nerve to say to me once that they had a ticket for their bag, which they did as I saw it so they were entitled to put it there. I said that having a ticket does not mean you are guaranteed a seat. His response 'exactly, so stand!'

His bag would not have been on the seat for long had I encountered him and it!

So just what is a passenger supposed to do if they have CoC permitted luggage, there is no dedicated luggage storage provision and there is a significant number of passengers aboard?

In my commuting days, I would just ignore them and sit down.

It's not only luggage that can cause an obstruction.

Twice in two days I have had a situation where I have had to step over a dog that has been allowed by its' selfish owner to lounge in the gangway, completely blocking it.

I've never taken my dog on a train, but if I did, I wouldn't let her lie in the gangway as I wouldn't want anyone stepping on her. I don't think she'd be too keen either!

And then you have the problem of people thinking that they own the table belonging to a group of four seats, and spread their Sunday Paper/Laptop/Food all over it.

I'd better stop now before I turn into Victor Meldrew

That's just one of the reasons I avoid table seats if I'm not in a group of four!

 

[northwichcat]

One day when I boarded an EMT Liverpool-Norwich service the conductor made an announcement that the train has a lot of passengers so passengers who have left bags on the seat next to them need to move them so other people can sit down. I had just boarded when that announcement had been made and noticed 3 people ignoring that, one of them moved their bag when I asked though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the 150's and Pacers out of Swansea I see people holding fairly large bags on their laps, as there's nowhere else for them to go. There can also be piles of luggage at the doors, in the aisles and on empty seats. Even if I have to stand, I don't ask people to move their suitcases on such occasions. Mine is only a short journey, and it would only create far too much of a fuss to try.

I don't think ATW have fitted a luggage/bike rack to their 142s and 150s like the former-FNW 142s and 150s at Northern have. One thing I notice on Northern services is a lot of people board with luggage, baby buggies and the like board through the wrong doors and then leave their luggage/baby buggy etc. blocking the aisle. What makes it worse is station staff at stations like Stockport help such passengers board through the wrong doors! I think Virgin need to train their station staff as to where luggage space is located on non-Virgin services.

 

[Buttsy]

Spot on. I normally sit by the window and put my bag next to me. I'll never knowingly stop someone else from sitting down. It really doesn't bother me. The bad eggs are the ones who sit by the aisle and put their bag by the window. Proper odd bods. They would obviously rather someone stand than have to sit next to someone.

I look out for the latter on my commute from Oxford to Reading and back and if I can't find a double unoccupied, I'll ask if the seat is free and disturb them twice in 30 mins...

 

[Greenback]

ATW guards make the bags on seats announcements regularly in my experience. I've also seen bikes refused boarding on peak time services out of Swansea (my usual train is the 1705). There seem to be more people wanting to take their bikes on trains now but there aren't the facilities for them.

It's not unusual to have two or three bikes per door on the peak 150's down here. As it's sometimes allowed and sometimes not, it's difficult for the cyclists to understand why they can't get one one day but they can another.

Anyway, that's another huge can of worms which is probably best left unopened here. Let's stick with the luggage discussion!

 

[thenorthern]

I once had a woman on a First North Western train from Grange-over-Sands to Lancaster using 4 seats on a busy train with her baggage and when my mum saw there were no seats she quickly said "oh look children these seats are free". I got a huff as the woman didn't want to put her baggage in the empty overhead rack but using up 4 seats for baggage is beyond ridiculous even on a quieter train.

 

[AM9]

So it seems that the bottom line is that if the TOC has failed to provide appropriate space that the CoCs make clear is within the bounds of 'normal', it's a free for all choice to:

put luggage on a seat or on the floor between seats preventing their use
or
block a gangway so that movement is difficult along the coach
or
ignore the notices and obstruct the doors, which can be a safety hazard

If the train only has a driver, there's not much anybody can do about it unless other passengers start to gang up against either the passenger with luggage or the objector.

Mmmm...., given the many incidents of fractious behavior on trains often discussed here, I can see that certain routes (Thameslink for example) being a potential hotspot for trouble. Hopefully, there will be some space in the 700s that doesn't block access by disabled passengers.

 

[Greenback]

It's more case, I think, of being pragmatic and judging the circumstances on their merits. What I mean, is, if I can see somewhere for the luggage to be accommodated, I'll first offer to help to move it there. If my offer is refused, and the person won't shift it themselves, then I'll do it for them.

If there genuinely appears to be nowhere for it to go, I'm not going to insist it's moved from a seat, though someone else can if they want to.

It's the same, really with luggage in the gangway. If it's completely blocking the aisle and making it very difficult for others to get past, then I'll assist in moving it if there's an alternative.

I've also experienced exactly the same thing son a journey from Milano Centrale to Spiez, so it doesn't seem to a British problem. There must be commercial pressure everywhere in Europe to maximise the number of seats available.

 

[northwichcat]

their religion prevents them sitting next to someone the opposite gender

In which case they should be the one who stands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I've also experienced exactly the same thing son a journey from Milano Centrale to Spiez, so it doesn't seem to a British problem. There must be commercial pressure everywhere in Europe to maximise the number of seats available.

I got on a busy train in Italy a couple of weeks ago with a 45 litre wheeled backpack and a messenger bag and found the backpack easily fitted under a seat and the messenger bag was fine to sit on my lap.

 

[Greenback]

I got on a busy train in Italy a couple of weeks ago with a 45 litre wheeled backpack and a messenger bag and found the backpack easily fitted under a seat and the messenger bag was fine to sit on my lap.

I can't remember whether it was an Italian train, but it was an international service. In fairness, it felt very much like an XC Voyager after Domodossola, as people were crammed on, sitting on their bags in the vestibules, just like the last time I did Birmingham to Cheltenham!

It felt a bit like mountaineering when it was time to get off, having to climb over bags not just in the aisles but also in the vestibule area, where people had to go on the platform to even allow you to be able to climb over their luggage!

 

[rdeez]

I was recently on a busy Hereford-Birmingham service, where a woman at a table seat had sat in the aisle seat with her bag on the window seat - and then fallen asleep!

I was lucky to get one of the seats by the doors but there were plenty of people standing - and nobody bothered to wake the woman and ask her if she'd kindly scootch over or move so they could get the seat, but even I would have considered that had I still been standing myself as I found it to be very selfish and inconsiderate.

 

[Greenback]

It's possible she was only pretending to be asleep in order to increase the chances of being left alone.

 

[swt_passenger]

If we were to go back to when stock such as the SWT Desiros was brand new - has the luggage used by most people changed in the intervening period? What I'm thinking is that nowadays most cases are deeper, and wheeled, and just don't fit the racks. When you do see someone actually able to use an overhead rack for a case it looks unusual nowadays, but there's really quite a bit of room up there...

But were the racks any use when the design was done, or were they just too late. Same with Electro/Turbostars, Voyagers or Pendolinos, did the train spec for the overhead racks on all these rolling stock types just fail to match what was happening in the luggage market?

 

[northwichcat]

If we were to go back to when stock such as the SWT Desiros was brand new - has the luggage used by most people changed in the intervening period? What I'm thinking is that nowadays most cases are deeper, and wheeled, and just don't fit the racks.

When TPE replaced 158s with 185s I noticed a lot of people having problems trying to get suitcases in to 185 luggage racks which would have fitted fine in the 158 luggage racks so maybe the Siemens design of luggage rack is poor compared to the old BR designs.

 

[philjo]

On the GN route the 365s do have luggage racks at the ends of most of the coaches but the 317 and 321 units do not and you can't put anything under the seats either as the heaters etc are under there.
People tend to leave cases in the doorways, which just blocks the door for other passengers to get on/off. I tend not to leave it there as the current case has 4 wheels so if left freestanding it will roll off down the train.
If I can get into the pantograph coach there are 2 rows of seats with more leg room that can hold the case in front of me or between the seats where the power supply comes in. In any other coach I tend to sit in in Aisle seat & hold on to it (partially blocking the gangway) or the case has to go in the bay of 4 blocking at least 1 other seat. there is no other option as there isn't anywhere else to put luggage.

There was a a particularly large pile of luggage on the TGV I was on last month - one of the doorways was completely inaccessible!

 

[ASharpe]

A couple of months ago a rather small woman brought this along on a soon to be packed GC train from Bradford to London.

At first she just left it in the vestibule but the guard came down and said she would have to find somewhere else for it or not travel. She then tried to put it across the overhead racks. I saw the guard marching down so I went to suggest a better location.

But at least she didn't try taking up two seats with it.

 

[cf111]

I have seen a guard on a packed GNER service making his way down the train and telling people that if they don't move their bags from the seat next to them then they will be buying a ticket for it. The indignation was a sight to behold. He had made several announcements advising people that this would be happening too.

I have sympathy with people finding it difficult to place acceptable-size luggage on some trains though, luggage provision on certain units is poor.

 

[stut]

On the GN route the 365s do have luggage racks at the ends of most of the coaches but the 317 and 321 units do not and you can't put anything under the seats either as the heaters etc are under there.
People tend to leave cases in the doorways, which just blocks the door for other passengers to get on/off. I tend not to leave it there as the current case has 4 wheels so if left freestanding it will roll off down the train.
If I can get into the pantograph coach there are 2 rows of seats with more leg room that can hold the case in front of me or between the seats where the power supply comes in. In any other coach I tend to sit in in Aisle seat & hold on to it (partially blocking the gangway) or the case has to go in the bay of 4 blocking at least 1 other seat. there is no other option as there isn't anywhere else to put luggage.

The 365 luggage racks are often underused, though - partly due to people sitting on them, partly due to their relative obscurity (why would you look there of all places if you didn't know already) and partly because people seem to have the need to block half the aisle with stuff in case they need to get out something during the journey (or even use it to create a kind of mobile office...)

The 321s and 319s do have some space between the back-to-back seats, though. Thankfully, I rarely have to travel with more than can fit in there.

 

[Buttsy]

The lack of luggage space was also compounded by the loss of 'guard's compartments' after the Royal Mail went to dedicated trains and then road. Early Sprinters and Pacers used to have lockable areas that could be used for bike and big luggage storage when not being used for mail. This area can still be seen on Pacers where the tip-up seats are.

 

[krus_aragon]

The lack of luggage space was also compounded by the loss of 'guard's compartments' after the Royal Mail went to dedicated trains and then road. Early Sprinters and Pacers used to have lockable areas that could be used for bike and big luggage storage when not being used for mail. This area can still be seen on Pacers where the tip-up seats are.

And even more visible on 153s: The whole compartment is still there opposite the toilets. The bottom area is for bikes and the top shelf for luggage. (Only image I could find.)

 

[muz379]

I don't think ATW have fitted a luggage/bike rack to their 142s and 150s like the former-FNW 142s and 150s at Northern have. One thing I notice on Northern services is a lot of people board with luggage, baby buggies and the like board through the wrong doors and then leave their luggage/baby buggy etc. blocking the aisle. What makes it worse is station staff at stations like Stockport help such passengers board through the wrong doors! I think Virgin need to train their station staff as to where luggage space is located on non-Virgin services.

Non folding buggies , as well as parents not prepared to fold up their folding buggies is a big problem

And as you have noted Virgin station staff seem to just want it off their platform and anywhere on the train . Countless times at Wigan NW, Preston and Stockpot I have had to delay my train to get a buggy/bike or wheelchair user taken off the train and put on at the correct location on the train . Or if there is no room refused to carry them despite Virgin staff telling them they can get on the train . Every time this does happen I make sure I make our delay attribution team aware the delay is caused by virgin staff .

ATW guards make the bags on seats announcements regularly in my experience. I've also seen bikes refused boarding on peak time services out of Swansea (my usual train is the 1705). There seem to be more people wanting to take their bikes on trains now but there aren't the facilities for them.

It's not unusual to have two or three bikes per door on the peak 150's down here. As it's sometimes allowed and sometimes not, it's difficult for the cyclists to understand why they can't get one one day but they can another.

Anyway, that's another huge can of worms which is probably best left unopened here. Let's stick with the luggage discussion!

The non consistency when it comes to bikes/buggies is a real problem . One day someone will be allowed to have their bike or buggy loaded wherever they want and the guard wont say anything , another day they will get a guard who they think is being a jobsworth who will make stuff go in the correct place .

It is the same with luggage though , I have seen services where there is adequate space in luggage racks however people have still decided to occupy the gangway/a door or a seat with the luggage . When asked if they could move it to the luggage rack or so it is not blocking the gangway or a door they often say "but ive never been asked to move my luggage before nobody usually bothers" . It would seem just as with bikes and buggies some guards are being inconsistent when it comes to luggage in dangerous positions as well .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And even more visible on 153s: The whole compartment is still there opposite the toilets. The bottom area is for bikes and the top shelf for luggage. (Only image I could find.)

I know the compartment you are talking of , it has a metal shelf above it as well for the storage of luggage . On the 153's there is also the area around the door at the opposite end which if there is not a wheelchair user on board has lots of room for suitcases too .

 

[Rick1984]

On the GN route the 365s do have luggage racks at the ends of most of the coaches

I was on one for first time other day and have to say the racks are rather innocuous!

 

[yorksrob]

Overhead luggage racks are often inadequate on modern units, tilting up at a ridiculous angle. Electrostars seem to be poor for this, particularly when compared to the large overseat racks that were available on the VEP's for example.

144's seem to be quite good in terms of overhead luggage space conversely.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

I wonder how many people realise that a decent-sized bag can slide under most modern train seats?

The space under a seat (airline) is normally the leg room of the person in the seat behind, I have had issues where people have tried to push things under their seat onto my feet.

 

[thenorthern]

the year is 2014 not 1814, their religion needs to move on!!!

In which case they should be the one who stands.

I don't think that's how they see it works and I don't think I want to find out.

 

[AM9]

If we were to go back to when stock such as the SWT Desiros was brand new - has the luggage used by most people changed in the intervening period? What I'm thinking is that nowadays most cases are deeper, and wheeled, and just don't fit the racks. When you do see someone actually able to use an overhead rack for a case it looks unusual nowadays, but there's really quite a bit of room up there...

But were the racks any use when the design was done, or were they just too late. Same with Electro/Turbostars, Voyagers or Pendolinos, did the train spec for the overhead racks on all these rolling stock types just fail to match what was happening in the luggage market?

I suppose a reasonable TOC objective/obligation ought to be that luggage that would be considered 'carry on' for flights should be accommodated either in the overhead rack, under the passenger's seat or on the passenger's lap. On routes that attract passengers with suitcase size luggage up the size indicated in the CoCs, there should be adequate fixed rack or tip-up seat capacity. There should be warnings that luggage takes priority over sitting in those seats. In commuter stock, the expectation that most of the time, passengers will only be carrying hand luggage would mean that space was not wasted with empty luggage space. In long distance or other vacation traffic routes, the stock should have enough luggage space to minimise hazardous luggage obstructions. The problem we would then be left with is in services that do both, e.g. Thameslink. Maybe the 700s will have sufficient satanding space which can be used for large luggage items.

 

[northwichcat]

I suppose a reasonable TOC objective/obligation ought to be that luggage that would be considered 'carry on' for flights should be accommodated either in the overhead rack, under the passenger's seat or on the passenger's lap.

Some flight operators have no weight restrictions on cabin baggage, while train operators warn not to place heavy items in the overhead racks as it may fall out and cause injury.

In commuter stock, the expectation that most of the time, passengers will only be carrying hand luggage would mean that space was not wasted with empty luggage space. In long distance or other vacation traffic routes, the stock should have enough luggage space to minimise hazardous luggage obstructions. The problem we would then be left with is in services that do both, e.g. Thameslink. Maybe the 700s will have sufficient satanding space which can be used for large luggage items.

Question is how do you define which route is which type. Southport-Manchester Airport could probably be classed as a commuter route at 8am in January, but at 10am in July it'll probably be carrying a lot of people with suitcases.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And as you have noted Virgin station staff seem to just want it off their platform and anywhere on the train . Countless times at Wigan NW, Preston and Stockpot I have had to delay my train to get a buggy/bike or wheelchair user taken off the train and put on at the correct location on the train . Or if there is no room refused to carry them despite Virgin staff telling them they can get on the train . Every time this does happen I make sure I make our delay attribution team aware the delay is caused by virgin staff .

If they've ever loaded a wheelchair in to the middle of a Pacer then they're even worse than I thought.

 

[Greenback]

The non consistency when it comes to bikes/buggies is a real problem . One day someone will be allowed to have their bike or buggy loaded wherever they want and the guard wont say anything , another day they will get a guard who they think is being a jobsworth who will make stuff go in the correct place .

It is the same with luggage though , I have seen services where there is adequate space in luggage racks however people have still decided to occupy the gangway/a door or a seat with the luggage . When asked if they could move it to the luggage rack or so it is not blocking the gangway or a door they often say "but ive never been asked to move my luggage before nobody usually bothers" . It would seem just as with bikes and buggies some guards are being inconsistent when it comes to luggage in dangerous positions as well .

It's a human problem. One guard/TM will not see a problem, whereas another in exactly the same situation will.

Equally, on one train it won't be a problem, one another, From my observations at Swansea it appears that 175's are more problematic for bikes but they have far better luggage space. To an extent, it has to depend on the circumstances of the service. Otherwise, we might have situations where a relatively empty train won't carry x number of bikes because that is what the TOC says.

I'm sure that happens now and leads to very frustrated cyclists. It can be a no win situation, in whatever the guard or TOC do they will be criticised.

Overhead luggage racks are often inadequate on modern units, tilting up at a ridiculous angle. Electrostars seem to be poor for this, particularly when compared to the large overseat racks that were available on the VEP's for example.

144's seem to be quite good in terms of overhead luggage space conversely.

I agree. I often forget which of my holdalls or rucksacks will fit into the overhead racks on certain trains, but won't on others. I sometimes find I've brought the wrong type of bag for my journey, but if so it goes in the main area or on the floor.

I suppose a reasonable TOC objective/obligation ought to be that luggage that would be considered 'carry on' for flights should be accommodated either in the overhead rack, under the passenger's seat or on the passenger's lap. On routes that attract passengers with suitcase size luggage up the size indicated in the CoCs, there should be adequate fixed rack or tip-up seat capacity. There should be warnings that luggage takes priority over sitting in those seats. In commuter stock, the expectation that most of the time, passengers will only be carrying hand luggage would mean that space was not wasted with empty luggage space. In long distance or other vacation traffic routes, the stock should have enough luggage space to minimise hazardous luggage obstructions. The problem we would then be left with is in services that do both, e.g. Thameslink. Maybe the 700s will have sufficient satanding space which can be used for large luggage items.

It's a very good idea in principle. In practice it's more difficult, as for example when 150's substitute for other units on longer distance services. Or, of course when they are actually due to operate them anyway. It's often 150's on the Fishguard boat trains, and one of the attractions of taking the ferry to Ireland instead of flying is supposed to be the ability to avoid hassle with hold luggage on a flight!

 

[PeterC]

The underlying problem is the pressure to squeeze more and more seats into a coach. When intercity seating was largely at tables there was lots of space between the seat backs.

With franchises now being micro managed by DfT bean counters there isn't much hope for common sense.