Luggage on trains… bikes now take priority?

[pokemonsuper9]

That's right - the only cost of car ownership is the fuel one puts inside them.

Maintenance? Insurance? Parking costs (where applicable)?

 

[Malaxa]

Maintenance? Insurance? Parking costs (where applicable)?

I bought a maintenance-free car for nothing which doesn't depreciate which will run forvever

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I bought a maintenance-free car for nothing which doesn't depreciate which will run forvever

You bought a car that is guaranteed to never break?
I don't think that's a promise that can be made for anything.

 

[Benjwri]

A

Parking costs

s much as I’m on the side of travelling via public transport, this is one that applies and can quite ironically be more expensive on the train.

 

[yorkie]

I was on a Northern Class 331 train the other week and there were two ladies sat down on the fold-down seats. A man boarded the train with his bike and initially was stood in the vestuible with it. He asks if he can sit there. He made them both get up and move down the carriage so he could put his bike there! Honestly, I was astounded. I would have said something had it of been me.

What would you have said? If the area is marked for storage of bikes then anyone who chooses to sit there can't be surprised if they are asked to move. Indeed they should have moved without being asked.

LOL I'll believe that when the rail ticket to visit my family doesn't cost twice as much as the petrol needed to drive there and back.


By taking the front and rear wheels off you can get a bike into all but the smallest cars, a bit more faff admittedly. It is more of an issue if you have multiple bikes to transport in which case a roof rack is the best option (and you can get racks designed for transporting bicycles).

What a strange post; what point (related to the topic in hand) are you trying to make?

 

[bramling]

Taking a step back. Should non-folding bikes be allowed on trains?

With modern train design and the absence of guards vans, I suggest that the default answer should be "No".

The difficulty is reconciling that with a so-called political agenda which supposedly wants us to avoid using cars.

If the politicians are prepared to drop that pretence then there’s more of a case to say no unfolded bikes on trains.

We in this country seem to collectively want everything all ways, and in reality at times we can’t.

Having said that, folding bicycles like the Brompton are pretty good. But even they seem to upset some people.

 

[Silenos]

Prams and buggies are not typically very heavy. Nobody uses a classic Silver Cross any more - they're all designed to separate and fold and be lightweight so as to be easily carried by small car, and the effect of that is that they can on public transport, too.

In my experience, women with a buggy are not able or willing to fold it when accessing public transport - not only is this a faff requiring some physical effort, it’s simply not feasible as the buggy is typically loaded with not only a child or children, but also several items of baby clothing, gear for nappy changes, wet wipes, juice and biscuits to keep the child quiet, mugs, dummies, favourite toys, parental possessions, and a bag full of shopping.

 

[jon0844]

In my experience, women with a buggy are not able or willing to fold it when accessing public transport - not only is this a faff requiring some physical effort, it’s simply not feasible as the buggy is typically loaded with not only a child or children, but also several items of baby clothing, gear for nappy changes, wet wipes, juice and biscuits to keep the child quiet, mugs, dummies, favourite toys, parental possessions, and a bag full of shopping.

I never had issues folding up a buggy when travelling on a train or bus. If you know you might have to and are prepared, it's no big deal. If you feel you shouldn't have to, and if someone asks then you get all upset, it becomes a very big deal and one that can end up with big arguments.

 

[Krokodil]

One thing a lot of people either aren't aware of, or are unwilling to do, is put luggage underneath seats. On the 755s, for example, there's quite a lot of room under them due to the cantilevered seat design.

One advantage of filling a carriage with table seats is that there's space between seat backs for large luggage. Coach D in an Avanti Voyager is useful here.

If the area is marked for storage of bikes then anyone who chooses to sit there can't be surprised if they are asked to move.

You'd like to think so. In reality, the reaction I've had when I've needed to ask people to vacate the wheelchair space makes you question humanity.

I never had issues folding up a buggy when travelling on a train or bus. If you know you might have to and are prepared, it's no big deal. If you feel you shouldn't have to, and if someone asks then you get all upset, it becomes a very big deal and one that can end up with big arguments.

An argument the other year resulted in a mother being fined a few hundred quid for what she called me when I told her that there was no room for an unfolded pram.

 

[trei2k]

Maintenance? Insurance? Parking costs (where applicable)?

I don't want to detract from the discussion, but I think this was sarcasm by @Malaxa .

People often compare the price of a train ticket with to the price of fuel, without considering the stuff you've mentioned and the externalities as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't want to detract from the discussion, but I think this was sarcasm by @Malaxa .

People often compare the price of a train ticket with to the price of fuel, without considering the stuff you've mentioned and the externalities as well.

Arguing against it being fuel plus parking (but don't forget for most that compares to train plus taxi or station parking) is a prime way to lose traffic. That IS how almost everyone sees it, and that's reasonable because most people account the big car ownership costs as effectively fixed.

 

[Bantamzen]

When we're supposed to be moving towards a greener future, including more 'active travel'?

The problem is no matter how well you design bike space on the train, you'll never make room for more than a fraction of the train's passenger capacity. Unless you rip out all the seats and everyone sits on their bike for the journey....

So trains and bikes are never going to get on very well. Therefore make bike reservations compulsory, though not necessarily chargeable, to avoid those occasions where more bikes show up than can be accommodated safely. Make sure that the trains have indicators or displays that show when reserved so that there might be fewer arguments (you'll never stop all though), and avoid tip-up seats in the spaces for bikes although where possible this could be achieved using vertical stands for them.

 

[Master Cutler]

These space situations are getting out of control, to quote my son in law following a recent trip to Bangor with my daughter on Transport For Wales;

As the journey went on it got worse. People were fighting. A large family got on and took over. The kid had a loud boom box playing heavy bass music and offensive rap. Really loud. Then they were all singing loudly. People were crammed in like sardines. Couldn’t move. Then there was a loud lady on a mobility scooter causing problems at each stop. Then her son is shouting and swearing because more people were trying to get on at each stop. Then a guy with a bike tried to cram on. And the train was only 2 carriages

This experience is not uncommon these days when everyone is trying to do the best thing by using the train. How can a cyclist boarding the train under these circumstances travel safely without risking injury to other passengers? And the potential legal ramifications.

 

[dk1]

These space situations are getting out of control, to quote my son in law following a recent trip to Bangor with my daughter on Transport For Wales;



This experience is not uncommon these days when everyone is trying to do the best thing by using the train. How can a cyclist boarding the train under these circumstances travel safely without risking injury to other passengers? And the potential legal ramifications.

Since the 1980s when brake vans were gradually removed as second generation DMUs took over I have never known it any different on regional routes.

Always been conflict with cyclists.

 

[Falcon1200]

Therefore make bike reservations compulsory, though not necessarily chargeable, to avoid those occasions where more bikes show up than can be accommodated safely.

On all trains - Surely not? On every train I have taken my bike on in recent years there has been adequate space for everyone, even if a few ignorant people decide to sit in the bike area despite there being space elsewhere. And apart from anything else, when I (as I often do) go out on the bike and take the train home, I don't know what train I will catch, or even necessarily which station I will reach.

 

[Bantamzen]

On all trains - Surely not? On every train I have taken my bike on in recent years there has been adequate space for everyone, even if a few ignorant people decide to sit in the bike area despite there being space elsewhere. And apart from anything else, when I (as I often do) go out on the bike and take the train home, I don't know what train I will catch, or even necessarily which station I will reach.

In the long run? Yes, absolutely. If more people are going to be using bikes & trains in combination, then there will often be more bikes than a train can accommodate. So better to formalise a system right across the board so that it is transparent. I've seen quite a few occasions on busy services where more bikes have been boarded than the unit has spaces for, resulting in bikes propped up against doors getting in the way of people and on one occasion actually fell out of the doors towards people trying to board. If you are going to stop people using bike spaces, equally you have to stop cyclists using spaces not appropriate for bikes.

 

[xotGD]

The vertical bike racks on 333s are space efficient.

But then you get the cyclist who insists on getting their bike out before everyone else has got off, holding up a dozen or more people.

(This is at Leeds, so no, the cyclist is not at risk of missing their stop.)

And if you need a bike at both ends of your commute, maybe get a second bike and lock it up at Leeds?

 

[Falcon1200]

In the long run? Yes, absolutely. If more people are going to be using bikes & trains in combination, then there will often be more bikes than a train can accommodate.

I cannot agree with that. I deliberately travel off-peak and there have never, ever been more bikes than the train could accommodate, nor has there ever been a single occasion when a bike, or passengers, could not board because the train was crammed; Not once, ever. I would however concede that there should perhaps be restrictions on bikes at busy times, but only on a limited basis on the minimum number of trains.

on one occasion actually fell out of the doors towards people trying to board.

Where was the owner of that bike? On the few occasions I have been unable to put my bike in the designated space, not because it was full of bikes but but blocked by luggage, prams and pushchairs, I stand with the bike next to the doors, where possible on the non-platform side. Leaving your bike unattended leaning against a door is plain daft!

 

[Bantamzen]

The vertical bike racks on 333s are space efficient.

But then you get the cyclist who insists on getting their bike out before everyone else has got off, holding up a dozen or more people.

(This is at Leeds, so no, the cyclist is not at risk of missing their stop.)

And if you need a bike at both ends of your commute, maybe get a second bike and lock it up at Leeds?

Yeah Leeds is one place where I've seen too many bikes for a unit boarding, even on the 333s with the vertical stands. Although the number that don't even bother to go for the areas for bikes shows that some cyclists can be equally as ignorant as some passengers who won't vacate cycle areas when required to.

Just as an aside I'm always curious why some go between Leeds and Shipley on the train especially in summer, the canal path is a pretty decent place to cycle and save a couple of locks pretty much flat. I've walked it home from time to time, and have colleagues who regularly cycle along the Aire Valley. I thought the idea of cycling was to get fitter, not just to save a few minutes walking in Leeds...

I cannot agree with that. I deliberately travel off-peak and there have never, ever been more bikes than the train could accommodate, nor has there ever been a single occasion when a bike, or passengers, could not board because the train was crammed; Not once, ever. I would however concede that there should perhaps be restrictions on bikes at busy times, but only on a limited basis on the minimum number of trains.

Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And if more people use bikes and trains as part of their journey then its likely to happen more often.

Where was the owner of that bike? On the few occasions I have been unable to put my bike in the designated space, not because it was full of bikes but but blocked by luggage, prams and pushchairs, I stand with the bike next to the doors, where possible on the non-platform side. Leaving your bike unattended leaning against a door is plain daft!

From what I could tell they were sat close by, but as I was one of the people jumping out of the way of the bike I couldn't tell you why they weren't paying attention. They, and indeed everyone on the train were just lucky it clattered onto the platform and not found its way down the side of the train, because that would have been that for the journey until the bike could be safely retrieved. What I do know is lots of bikes are abandoned by doors, often ones that will be active at the next station. If I know whose bike it is I will give the owner a shout if they are not paying attention, but I'm afraid it does highlight this is a growing issue.

This is why I think reservations across the board will make more sense. This way people will know to check in advance of their journey if they will have a secure place to leave their bikes. Thereafter any further bikes could only be carried with the consent of the train crew, on the understanding that the owners do not leave their bikes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The problem is no matter how well you design bike space on the train, you'll never make room for more than a fraction of the train's passenger capacity. Unless you rip out all the seats and everyone sits on their bike for the journey....

So trains and bikes are never going to get on very well. Therefore make bike reservations compulsory, though not necessarily chargeable, to avoid those occasions where more bikes show up than can be accommodated safely. Make sure that the trains have indicators or displays that show when reserved so that there might be fewer arguments (you'll never stop all though), and avoid tip-up seats in the spaces for bikes although where possible this could be achieved using vertical stands for them.

I would happily pay a small sum to take a bike if it meant guaranteed space, and a taxi if a short notice RRB was operated. The TOCs don't want to do that, so they don't charge. If there's no consideration there's no contract.

That would need a quality approach, e.g. no tip ups and proactive removal of luggage by guards.

Ideally there'd be an app for quick and easy booking, plus at TVMs etc.

 

[Bantamzen]

I would happily pay a small sum to take a bike if it meant guaranteed space, and a taxi if a short notice RRB was operated. The TOCs don't want to do that, so they don't charge. If there's no consideration there's no contract.

That would need a quality approach, e.g. no tip ups and proactive removal of luggage by guards.

Ideally there'd be an app for quick and easy booking, plus at TVMs etc.

The latter was what I was thinking, maybe allowing booking up until a few minutes before departure. But it it would as you say require some proactive work from train crew to ensure the spaces are clear. But if TOCs also paid a bit of heed to having a bit of large luggage storage, the issue of luggage in bike spaces would hopefully be lessened. None of this should be particularly difficult, and absolutely should be a requirement on all new builds and refurbs. We just need to TOCs to pull their fingers out, a bit of effort on their part would make everyone's lives a bit easier.

 

[Krokodil]

avoid tip-up seats in the spaces for bikes

Agreed

although where possible this could be achieved using vertical stands for them.

God no, I can just about manage them on an Avanti Voyager but I can't work out how anyone on an XC Voyager is supposed to get two bikes onto that rack without removing the handlebars.

The most efficient use of space is the 153 one: bikes below, cases on top.

 

[fandroid]

I've been griping for years about the luggage provision on SWT/SWR class units. These are great medium distance commuter trains and the overhead racks are perfect even for baggage that's the same size as airline cabin bags. But these units have another role. At weekends they shift large numbers of families to and from the coast. Those numbers increase dramatically in the summer and all manner of buggies and other gear appears. Add in universities, of which there are plenty on the lines served and finally, direct access to an airport at Southampton. The solution is simple but never taken up. Replace the end seats in each passenger compartment with flip-down seats. Once one bag or buggy is in there they won't be flipped down and the space is left for more.

Multiple functions of trains on the same line at different times never really seems to have dawned on the specifiers.

 

[The Ham]

As others have said, ultimately the issue is the lack of space available on the trains.

As as an example SWT brought about their peak hour cycle ban in about 2000, since then there's been significant growth in passenger numbers. Whilst there's been some increases in capacity, overall most of the growth has been within the capacity of existing trains (some getting longer but not really that many extra services).

If we built new railways about 15 years earlier, the Elizabeth Line would have been running for about 17 years now and Crossrail 2 would be due to open in the next few years. NPR would probably be under construction and HS2 would be running. HS2 would have been less controversial, as Northern areas would have projects on the table if not being built and would probably mostly been 4+ coach trains rather than 2 or 3 coaches. XC would have a fleet of 5 and 9/10 coach units (like GWR).

With longer trains, the benefits of electrifying lines improves (mainly due to the circa 10% reduction in lease costs, which isn't a big saving with 2 coach trains, but starts to mount as you get to 4, 6 or 8 cost trains).

All in all, the number of seats would be quite a bit higher. Reducing the risk of conflict, but also possibly reducing ticket prices (as longer trains are cheaper per seat to run and an empty seat isn't generating any income).

 

[Falcon1200]

Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it doesn't happen

Equally, because I have never, ever encountered it (no room) on the services I use, there is absolutely no need for compulsory bike reservations on those trains; A policy which does of course already exist on some routes, where bike accommodation is at the absolute minimum.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The most efficient use of space is the 153 one: bikes below, cases on top.

Though you can even screw that up if you put your mind to it - the GWR Turbos that were refitted with that arrangement have the shelf far too low, so anything taller than a flat-bar hybrid won't fit.

 

[Krokodil]

Though you can even screw that up if you put your mind to it - the GWR Turbos that were refitted with that arrangement have the shelf far too low, so anything taller than a flat-bar hybrid won't fit.

So anyone with drop-handlebars needs to get on a Voyager, while anyone with a flat-bar myst use a 153?

God life is complicated these days, never had these issues when a TGS was available.

 

[Bantamzen]

God no, I can just about manage them on an Avanti Voyager but I can't work out how anyone on an XC Voyager is supposed to get two bikes onto that rack without removing the handlebars.

The most efficient use of space is the 153 one: bikes below, cases on top.

If a compulsory reservation system were in place, you might not need the vertical racks together on longer trains. But even on shorter units racks could be opposite each other rather than next to each other. Vertical racks are a far more efficient use of space.

Equally, because I have never, ever encountered it (no room) on the services I use, there is absolutely no need for compulsory bike reservations on those trains; A policy which does of course already exist on some routes, where bike accommodation is at the absolute minimum.

Like I said, if more people are encouraged to use bikes then that situation could easily change. Therefore it is better to have a consistent system across the board, so that the chances of issues is reduced in the future. And its not a hardship, a quick check on the website / app / TVM, book the spot and away you go.

 

[Falcon1200]

Therefore it is better to have a consistent system across the board, so that the chances of issues is reduced in the future

As I have said, more than once, an across the board system is simply not necessary, and absolutely would be a hardship plus would disincentivise taking bikes on trains - Which is what some posters here seem to desire.

But finally, if an across the board reservation system is necessary because trains might get busier in the future, surely that should apply to all passengers, whether with a bike or not?

 

[al78]

I don't want to detract from the discussion, but I think this was sarcasm by @Malaxa .

People often compare the price of a train ticket with to the price of fuel, without considering the stuff you've mentioned and the externalities as well.

Fuel is the tangible cost of driving, the fixed costs are low and don't correlate strongly with mileage. Externalities by definition aren't on the balance sheet, if they were then the cost of rail travel would compare favourably with the tangible cost of driving. In addition, trying to add fixed costs of driving onto the cost of a journey is equivalent to saying it is a choice being driving and not owning a car, which is not the case. If owning a car is necessary, the cost of a journey compared to rail comes down to the tangible cost.

Back to the topic in hand, I can't see a solution to the space conflict. In the UK space is a finite limited resource in some places and there are too many people trying to use too little space. Combined with the thoughtless/gormless and self-centered nature of a significant subset of the population it is hardly surprising conflicts occur. Staff are tramlined by what they can do so they can't be expected to solve all issues. Bikes are an awkward shape with bits that stick out and bits that are dirty so they are a nuisance on a busy train. In an ideal world we'd have an additional carriage or a section of an existing carriage where bikes could be stored vertically which is more space efficient but it is questionable if that is the best use of limited space given how busy some trains can be even at off peak times.