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Luggage on trains… bikes now take priority?

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Bantamzen

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As I have said, more than once, an across the board system is simply not necessary, and absolutely would be a hardship plus would disincentivise taking bikes on trains - Which is what some posters here seem to desire.
What you mean is you don't think it is necessary now, where you are. However it is necessary elsewhere and could well become so where you are one day too. So having a uniform system that everyone knows works wherever they are going is far better than rocking up and being told by the train crew "tough luck".

As for the hardship, no it wouldn't be. A few more seconds of your life. But what is a fact is that bike space will always be at a premium on trains. Of course if you wish, the TOCs could just say leave your bike at the station, we won't carry them any more. Which would you prefer?

But finally, if an across the board reservation system is necessary because trains might get busier in the future, surely that should apply to all passengers, whether with a bike or not?
As above, bike space is at a premium. Nice try though....
 
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Falcon1200

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But what is a fact is that bike space will always be at a premium on trains.

Agree - on some trains, on some days, at certain times! But by no means all, and certainly not, I say again, on the trains I travel on. Anyway, I will leave this discussion and come back to it in 10 years time to relate how I now cannot now get on my trains as they are full with other people's bikes.....
 

The Ham

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Fuel is the tangible cost of driving, the fixed costs are low and don't correlate strongly with mileage. Externalities by definition aren't on the balance sheet, if they were then the cost of rail travel would compare favourably with the tangible cost of driving. In addition, trying to add fixed costs of driving onto the cost of a journey is equivalent to saying it is a choice being driving and not owning a car, which is not the case. If owning a car is necessary, the cost of a journey compared to rail comes down to the tangible cost.

The fixed costs are not low, if you look at the average cost of annual car ownership (£3,500 plus a bit) fuel costs are less than half (about 2/5th) of that total. Even adding up everything other than purchase cost, MOT, service/maintenance and insurance still doesn't get you to 50%.

As most people don't see the fixed costs all in one lump they can easily be spending (excluding purchase costs) £500 to £1,000 a year on VED, MOT, service/Maintenance and insurance without realising it.


It's why there's a desire by many not to own a car and use a combination of rail and cycle.

Of course for those who need to use a car they should want as many other people not to drive as possible as it would result in less traffic congestion (those days when traffic is a nightmare for no reason Vs those days when it's quicker than normal for no reason is a shift if 2%).

Therefore having rail capacity suitable to carry the number of people who would like to travel should be desirable to those who only drive as well as those who only go by train as a passenger as well as those who take their cycles with them.
 

Krokodil

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Vertical racks are a far more efficient use of space.
Not in my experience, they're usually empty while the bikes are stacked outside because you can't physically get them on. 153-style luggage racks on top of a bike space are a perfectly efficient use of space, you can even tuck buggies under there when demand works that way. Though obviously the DfT prefer to wedge as many seats in as possible with minimal luggage space, regardless of whether the train is designed to serve airports or holiday destinations. After all, according to the newspapers everyone who travels on a train is a "commuter" so holidaymakers don't exist in the minds of the powers that be.

Therefore it is better to have a consistent system across the board, so that the chances of issues is reduced in the future. And its not a hardship, a quick check on the website / app / TVM, book the spot and away you go.
You just run into the same problem that occurs with reservations, people book them and don't use them. So you can't get on even though no one is actually there. Our friendly HCA can't get to work now. Quite apart from the fact that while officially a given unit can only carry two bikes, if you stack them the right way certain units can safely accommodate three or four without fouling the aisle. With compulsory reservations you have no such pragmatism.

So having a uniform system that everyone knows works
Except that it won't work, it's completely unenforceable on local services.

The fixed costs are not low, if you look at the average cost of annual car ownership (£3,500 plus a bit) fuel costs are less than half (about 2/5th) of that total. Even adding up everything other than purchase cost, MOT, service/maintenance and insurance still doesn't get you to 50%.

As most people don't see the fixed costs all in one lump they can easily be spending (excluding purchase costs) £500 to £1,000 a year on VED, MOT, service/Maintenance and insurance without realising it.


It's why there's a desire by many not to own a car and use a combination of rail and cycle.

Of course for those who need to use a car they should want as many other people not to drive as possible as it would result in less traffic congestion (those days when traffic is a nightmare for no reason Vs those days when it's quicker than normal for no reason is a shift if 2%).

Therefore having rail capacity suitable to carry the number of people who would like to travel should be desirable to those who only drive as well as those who only go by train as a passenger as well as those who take their cycles with them.
I completely agree, but the point that other posters are making is that once you have bought/taxed/insured/MoTed a car, the cost of each extra journey you make is marginal. Therefore combining car ownership with public transport use is very expensive, so people only do it where car use would be inconvenient (e.g. long distances or visiting congested cities). If you want to attract people to public transport, they need to be able to use it for all of their journeys, not just some. Obviously public transport cannot serve everywhere so the option of using a bicycle for the last few miles makes a difference.
 
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AHBD

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The problem is no matter how well you design bike space on the train, you'll never make room for more than a fraction of the train's passenger capacity. Unless you rip out all the seats and everyone sits on their bike for the journey.... <D

So trains and bikes are never going to get on very well.
Err, but bikes and trains should go well together because a bike mitigates the fact, eg for a long journey that may be unfeasible entirely by bike, that the disembarkation train station is often going to be several miles from the users destination, but the bike will deal a distance that would be a very long walk without needing help from fossil fuels.

A bike is just luggage, even folding bikes are becoming awkward in modern trains with lack of luggage space, awkward doors, narrow aisles. A train with out enough luggage space is a waste of public money IMO.


Vertical racks are awkward and some peramboratory disabled people will be unable to use them.


I dont object to paying a reasonable amount for bicycle space if it guaranteed easy wheel on storage near ones seat. But why not do the same for other luggage only space, it still uses space that could be used for another paying passenger. Given that people will want their luggage near beside them, isnt conventional seating that can be locked out of use when booked as luggage space (including for cycles) actually a reasonable and equitable idea rather than throwing cyclists under the bus (train?).

Theres something wrong when it seems easier to get your bike/luggage on a coach than a train (modern scheduled coach journeys seem rather slow compared to trains even when using motorways)

Overhead racks seem madness in case if a crash, I expected them to banned from planes never mind trains..or at least deprecated rather than instead being required by the DF(motor)T for 80x..
 

Bantamzen

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Err, but bikes and trains should go well together because a bike mitigates the fact, eg for a long journey that may be unfeasible entirely by bike, that the disembarkation train station is often going to be several miles from the users destination, but the bike will deal a distance that would be a very long walk without needing help from fossil fuels.
So you are suggesting we reduce the number of seats to allow for more bikes? There is a reason why bike space is very limited on trains. If bikes are required at both ends of a journey on a regular basis for larger number of people, then bike racks and bike hire schemes would be far more appropriate.

A bike is just luggage, even folding bikes are becoming awkward in modern trains with lack of luggage space, awkward doors, narrow aisles. A train with out enough luggage space is a waste of public money IMO.
No, a bike is an alternative form of transport that generally speaking takes up more space and is harder to store that a suitcase.

Vertical racks are awkward and some peramboratory disabled people will be unable to use them.
Vertical racks offer a potential solution for more bike storage. Whilst operators should make reasonable adjustments, they also have to consider the needs of the rest of the passengers. Horizontal spaces take up a considerable larger amount of space, reducing the space available for passengers.

I dont object to paying a reasonable amount for bicycle space if it guaranteed easy wheel on storage near ones seat. But why not do the same for other luggage only space, it still uses space that could be used for another paying passenger. Given that people will want their luggage near beside them, isnt conventional seating that can be locked out of use when booked as luggage space (including for cycles) actually a reasonable and equitable idea rather than throwing cyclists under the bus (train?).
Bikes are bigger, considerably bigger than most luggage.

Theres something wrong when it seems easier to get your bike/luggage on a coach than a train (modern scheduled coach journeys seem rather slow compared to trains even when using motorways)
So you are suggesting luggage space under the trains? I can see a small problem with that..

Overhead racks seem madness in case if a crash, I expected them to banned from planes never mind trains..or at least deprecated rather than instead being required by the DF(motor)T for 80x..
Quite honestly in the case of a plane crash, luggage falling would be way down on my list of thing to worry about. The ground rushing towards me at several hundreds of miles an hour would be much more of a concern. And at high speed similar concerns would exist on a train.

I'm not sure what you are proposing here.
 

AHBD

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So you are suggesting we reduce the number of seats to allow for more bikes? There is a reason why bike space is very limited on trains. If bikes are required at both ends of a journey on a regular basis for larger number of people, then bike racks and bike hire schemes would be far more appropriate.
I was suggesting more general (but paid for) large luggage space but with the possibility that it is convertible from seats by booking if fold⁹ed seats can be locked away. That means cyclists are extra revenue on a train with space.

Touring cyclists will want their own bike. I would find a different means of Transport or a folding bike rather than use a hire bike or leave my bike at uk station all day. But modern trains are a pain with a folding bike and luggage.
The ecf reckon on 8 horizontal bikes per long distance train. Even an able cyclist with a loaded bike just wants to wheel it on, not wrestle it vertical, which ensues worries about wheel fit, boarding/ un boarding time etc.
Ecf cycles on trains

Ctc


No, a bike is an alternative form of transport that generally speaking takes up more space and is harder to store that a suitcase
Not if being wheeled/not ridden, and if on a train may be going on a long journey. If its being paid for I dont see why its size matters compared to multiple suitcases needing stored (currently for free). Vertical racks are an awkward pain..
So you are suggesting luggage space under the trains? I can see a small problem with that..
Quite honestly in the case of a plane crash, luggage falling would be way down on my list of thing to worry about. The ground rushing towards me at several hundreds of miles an hour would be much more of a concern. And at high speed similar concerns would exist on a train.

I'm not sure what you are proposing here.
no just luggage areas distributed thru train, possibly configurable between luggage and seats by booking but locked in position.

well dont want a very heavy suitcase landing on my head and thats without the speed a crash is going to impart to it... even a low speed crash might end badly. ...
Injuries etc from overhead luggage seem a feature of plane crashes...

If people cannot bring their luggage (including bicycle) onto trains they will possibly use other less green forms of Transport that will.

I am suggesting there needs to reasonable accommodation for cyclists on trains, and am prepared to pay a fare suplement for it but in return it should be civilised ie no vertical racks. The Ecf proposals seen reasonable to me. EDIT although I suspect the 8 is based on long trains, so maybe some wriggle room on shorter trains, perhaps some short fall made up by more flexible space.
 
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bramling

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The problem is no matter how well you design bike space on the train, you'll never make room for more than a fraction of the train's passenger capacity. Unless you rip out all the seats and everyone sits on their bike for the journey.... <D

So trains and bikes are never going to get on very well. Therefore make bike reservations compulsory, though not necessarily chargeable, to avoid those occasions where more bikes show up than can be accommodated safely. Make sure that the trains have indicators or displays that show when reserved so that there might be fewer arguments (you'll never stop all though), and avoid tip-up seats in the spaces for bikes although where possible this could be achieved using vertical stands for them.

To be fair, I’d say many cyclists are aware of the space issues on trains, and will plan their journeys in a way which avoids using services where there’s likely to be problems.

Where issues then occur is when something out-of-course happens, perhaps a train being more crowded than usual because of an event, preceding cancelled service, or whatever, and then there’s a problem. Particularly with something like an event as the bicycle will then be clashing with irregular users, who seem to be the ones most likely to cause fuss.

I do realise there are also a minority of cyclists who seem to go out of their way to make problems, but I don’t think this is the majority.

There’s also a segment of the population who seem to get the hump no matter what, hence why TOC twitter feeds aren’t immune from moans even about folded bicycles, which are the least of anyone’s problems really.
 

Krokodil

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So you are suggesting we reduce the number of seats to allow for more bikes?
No, there is a radical solution that involves ordering longer units. Not just for bikes; but to allow enough space for the luggage, buggies and of course passengers that modern units are often inadequate for. It's a bank holiday weekend so there were plenty of people left behind on the platform up here today by the two-coach DMUs that someone thought would be a good idea to order. I also spotted a single 185 at Man Picc, which looked pretty rammed (and still had Ox Rd and Vic to collect passengers from before heading for Leeds).

There is a reason why bike space is very limited on trains.
The short story being that in the eighties BR was forced to replace its aging three car DMMUs and longer Mk1 rakes with two car 15x. In order to squeeze passengers into the remaining coaches something had to give and the guard's van was lost. So you end up with the 150, a unit with absolutely no space at all for large cases (though to be fair to them, at least they have four bike spaces).

If bikes are required at both ends of a journey on a regular basis for larger number of people, then bike racks and bike hire schemes would be far more appropriate.
So someone who has spent several hundred quid on a bicycle (let's just look at commuters and ignore the really expensive models used for touring or racing) now needs to lock it up at a station, probably unstaffed, where any CCTV cameras are pointing the wrong way. On arrival at his destination he then needs to pay to rent another bike to get to work. And what happens if his workplace is at a smaller station where it isn't justified to provide a rack of hire bikes? Should he just walk the three miles? Perhaps the railway will have to offer an earlier first train of the day, in order that he can arrive with the time to do this.
Vertical racks offer a potential solution for more bike storage.
But as has been mentioned several times they seldom function in practice. If you're off on a long journey then arranging reservations for your drop-handle tourer isn't much of a biggie, but for travelling to your HCA shift at a local hospital you'll be on a flat-barred 'around town' bike. They don't fit in the vertical spaces provided on XC Voyagers or GWR IETs, particularly not if there's another bike needing the other hook.

Horizontal spaces take up a considerable larger amount of space, reducing the space available for passengers.
As I have said several times upthread, this can be mitigated by occupying the wasted space above the bikes with a luggage shelf. Nice and big for all of those airport cases and the gear for a week caravanning at Blackpool which is currently cluttering up the vestibule because there's nowhere else to put it.

Quite honestly in the case of a plane crash, luggage falling would be way down on my list of thing to worry about. The ground rushing towards me at several hundreds of miles an hour would be much more of a concern. And at high speed similar concerns would exist on a train.
On a train modern bodyshells protect you pretty well from impact. The Lumo overspeed at Peterborough showed however that you don't even need to derail to be at risk from heavy cases dropping upon your head.
 

occone

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Ahhh, battling over limited resources - a true classic and starter of many disputes.

Normally on the rails this drama is most spectacularly exhibited on 800s which intentionally combine luggage and bike storage into one cupboard of unhappiness. Just some red or green LEDs observe the battle and act as referees, separating the correct from the mistaken. (Meanwhile on GWR the Pullman kitchen sits gleaming and unused for almost all journeys, happily hogging valuable space and further limiting precious resources. We passengers instead focus on other passengers' merits, happily distracted from the gleaming unused stainless steel worktops.)

Making people pay to bring their bikes on might feel good emotionally when viewed through the lens of "the right minded Vs cyclists" debate, but we have to stow our emotions in the luggage racks and be realistic. Charging for bike reservations will just make things worse as people with paid reservations will be just as justified in expecting luggage to be moved and would be right to demand compensation when there was no space. More admin, just what this system needs!

However, in the absence of a proactive and constructive DfT, I found getting a folding ebike the best sticking plaster to this problem - the bike simply becomes luggage and I can charge into battle on a level playing field with everyone else. A good attitude goes the extra mile and we muddle on - it's what we do best in this country - complain and muddle on.
 

Bantamzen

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No, there is a radical solution that involves ordering longer units. Not just for bikes; but to allow enough space for the luggage, buggies and of course passengers that modern units are often inadequate for. It's a bank holiday weekend so there were plenty of people left behind on the platform up here today by the two-coach DMUs that someone thought would be a good idea to order. I also spotted a single 185 at Man Picc, which looked pretty rammed (and still had Ox Rd and Vic to collect passengers from before heading for Leeds).
Now I do agree that having longer trains will solve a lot of problems. What won't wash with the bean counters is ordering longer units for bikes. Not unless the bikes are paying full fares.

The short story being that in the eighties BR was forced to replace its aging three car DMMUs and longer Mk1 rakes with two car 15x. In order to squeeze passengers into the remaining coaches something had to give and the guard's van was lost. So you end up with the 150, a unit with absolutely no space at all for large cases (though to be fair to them, at least they have four bike spaces).
Lets face it, if the 14xs and 15xs hadn't happened we probably wouldn't even be having this debate, because there would have been far fewer trains to put bikes on.

So someone who has spent several hundred quid on a bicycle (let's just look at commuters and ignore the really expensive models used for touring or racing) now needs to lock it up at a station, probably unstaffed, where any CCTV cameras are pointing the wrong way. On arrival at his destination he then needs to pay to rent another bike to get to work. And what happens if his workplace is at a smaller station where it isn't justified to provide a rack of hire bikes? Should he just walk the three miles? Perhaps the railway will have to offer an earlier first train of the day, in order that he can arrive with the time to do this.
People leave cars worth tens of thousands of pounds in deserted streets and car parks all the time. Of course cyclists don't have to pay several hundred quid on a bike, cheaper options are available, although the cyclist won't be able to impress their co-workers quite so much (although if we are going to be brutally honest, most people think the cyclists that spend hundreds, maybe even thousands of pounds on cycle equipment are a bit of a joke, just don't tell cyclists I said that...)

But as has been mentioned several times they seldom function in practice. If you're off on a long journey then arranging reservations for your drop-handle tourer isn't much of a biggie, but for travelling to your HCA shift at a local hospital you'll be on a flat-barred 'around town' bike. They don't fit in the vertical spaces provided on XC Voyagers or GWR IETs, particularly not if there's another bike needing the other hook.
Isn't the point of having a bike to actually ride it, and not just dump it on trains. If you've bought a bike for a local job, surely you are riding it? Or I am missing something?

As I have said several times upthread, this can be mitigated by occupying the wasted space above the bikes with a luggage shelf. Nice and big for all of those airport cases and the gear for a week caravanning at Blackpool which is currently cluttering up the vestibule because there's nowhere else to put it.
Wait people are taking caravanning gear on trains now? Now you are just getting silly. I do agree that more bike / luggage space is needed, but if that means vertical bike racks to save space then so be it. I can't believe that this idea winds cyclists up so much..

Ahhh, battling over limited resources - a true classic and starter of many disputes.

Normally on the rails this drama is most spectacularly exhibited on 800s which intentionally combine luggage and bike storage into one cupboard of unhappiness. Just some red or green LEDs observe the battle and act as referees, separating the correct from the mistaken. (Meanwhile on GWR the Pullman kitchen sits gleaming and unused for almost all journeys, happily hogging valuable space and further limiting precious resources. We passengers instead focus on other passengers' merits, happily distracted from the gleaming unused stainless steel worktops.)

Making people pay to bring their bikes on might feel good emotionally when viewed through the lens of "the right minded Vs cyclists" debate, but we have to stow our emotions in the luggage racks and be realistic. Charging for bike reservations will just make things worse as people with paid reservations will be just as justified in expecting luggage to be moved and would be right to demand compensation when there was no space. More admin, just what this system needs!

However, in the absence of a proactive and constructive DfT, I found getting a folding ebike the best sticking plaster to this problem - the bike simply becomes luggage and I can charge into battle on a level playing field with everyone else. A good attitude goes the extra mile and we muddle on - it's what we do best in this country - complain and muddle on.
I feel like I should be giving a standing ovation or something.... No wait, I meant rolling on the the floor laughing...

Honestly, "the right minded Vs cyclists" debate, please get a grip! We are talking about a very limited space on a mode of public transport generally designed to move large numbers of passengers, not bikes. Better still, and something you seem to have completely ignored, is that I didn't even suggest the idea of paid for reservations. Just that someone would have to reserve a slot in advance. Oh the horror, the humanity, won't someone please think of the cyclists....??
 

The Ham

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The short story being that in the eighties BR was forced to replace its aging three car DMMUs and longer Mk1 rakes with two car 15x. In order to squeeze passengers into the remaining coaches something had to give and the guard's van was lost. So you end up with the 150, a unit with absolutely no space at all for large cases (though to be fair to them, at least they have four bike spaces).

You don't even need to go back to the 1980's, since 2000 rail use until now (comparing the last quarter there's data for and the comparable quarter from 2000) has grown by about 2/3'rds (for every 100 passengers in 2000 there's 162 in 2023). If we were to look at pre COVID numbers it's even higher (185 passengers in 2019) and higher than that it where we want to be heading.

That puts a large amount of pressure on the TOC to provide extra seats (given the limited ability to build significant extra infrastructure capacity within 23 years), that leads to conflict where that hasn't been provided (often at the behest of the government).

Ultimately we need more rail capacity and that means a lot more infrastructure spending across the board, so HS2, Crossrail 2, electrification, platform lengthening, NPR, etc. to name just the well-known ones which should be much further on than they are.

Paired with that there should be longer trains, for example XC should be running a mixture of 5 and 9 coach units, not a mixture of 4 and 5 coaches, Northern should (except for some of the branch lines) be working towards 8 or 12 coach trains starting to be the norm at peak hours not 6 or 8 (or less).

Due to the fact we'll want to be heading to over double the capacity we had in 2000, there should be a 30 year plan with what would be needed to allow rail use to double again over that timeframe.

For some areas that'll be longer trains, for some lines that may actually not be anything, for other areas that may require doubling of tracks, new lines, reopenings, new junctions/stations to create easier journey routes (especially where it removes the need to go into a city and back out, which eats up valuable capacity), new tram/light rail networks, and so on.

Without it the same arguments about lack of space for those who wish to use rail will come around again and again and again. Each time they come around the anger will get worse as there's even less spare capacity. Yet both sides of the debate will be putting their energies into fighting each other rather than making for what would be needed to satisfy everyone - that being significantly more capacity.

Yes the Elizabeth Line cost a lot, went over budget, was late, etc. (I don't think we know how to not do that with road or rail projects, so none of that should be an issue), however it's significantly improved rail for quite a large area.

Repeat that with other projects which create a significant step change in capacity and we could see things improve across large areas of the country.

For example remove the long distance trains from Manchester's existing platforms and you allow more local services to be run with longer trains. As the local trains need less turn around time the removal of one long distance train could allow quite a lot more services to see improvements.

Remove two ICWC services (an hour of platform use) and it could allow 4 existing services (currently 6 coaches long) to be lengthened to 12 coaches. However those services were already using up platform capacity, if they were sharing a platform with another service that could allow those services to be lengthened from 4 coaches to 8 coaches.

In doing so you've just doubled the capacity of 8 services, whilst at the same time reduced the congestion in the approaches as there's 4 less train movements. It also allows for some ICWC services to be retained to cater for residual movements (although better still would be to allow those retained services, as well as other intercity services like XC, to also use new platforms to further improve the capacity uplift)

Likewise the construction of Crossrail 2 would allow a lot of the SWML (beyond Woking) to see an uplift in capacity from the extra 8 Waterloo services which would be delivered from the removal of some of the metro services from Waterloo as they would then be in the Crossrail 2 tunnels. On paper that's about (off peak) 3tph for every 2tph a station has (in reality is likely that capacity issues will mean that isn't as clear cut as that - for instance it's likely that Portsmouth wouldn't see any uplift without significant improvements with Havant being the best end of the line which could be achieved), that's a significant uplift in capacity across quite a large area.

A doubling of rail capacity would likely mean 20% of miles traveled being undertaken by train, which would still leave ~70% being done by road (so still a lot of people could only ever drive, so no forcing of people out of their cars). However with that sort of modal shift road congestion would be mostly limited to very busy periods (actually the peak hour, rather than between 6:30 and 9:30) and so benefit everyone.

It would likely also, even allowing for all cars to be EV's, require less energy to move those people by train than by car. This would mean that there would be more energy to do other things (such as air source heat pumps) without having to build quite so much energy infrastructure.

Of course for many currently alive 30 years could well be beyond their lifespan, so why bother. It's certainly will beyond the planning government thinks about and so they won't care either.

The reason that it's needed, is whilst things may well change (for instance teleportation may become a thing) having a plan for what's the best thing to do over the next 30 years doesn't fix you into actually delivering it if the needs change over that timeframe. It would also need to be a rolling plan, so each parliament would have to extend it by another (say) 5 years.

Whilst the delivery of stuff in 30 years time certainly isn't a vote winner, delivering what was promised (maybe even adding in a small extra scheme, or delivering something early) would attract more votes than delays and cuts to what was promised.

It would certainly need some blue sky thinking, for instance do you build the line between Okehampton and Plymouth to allow passenger numbers to build up before then building the Dawlish Avoiding Line to them further boost journey opportunities between Exeter and Plymouth and where does that sit in the plan for building a Wales and West HS line and with a new rail bridge across the Tamar (and do you even bypass some services around Plymouth so that bridge could be away from Plymouth)?

As there's no way that you could just lengthen the 80x's to double the capacity between London and Wales/Southwest.

Likewise do you reopen what is currently the Watercress Line so you can bypass Basingstoke and the congestion there - is that ultimately the future for most heritage lines, that they become part of the mainline network again?

Does anyone disagree with this, and should we just fight it out for ever more valuable train space as they get more and more overcrowded?

Now I do agree that having longer trains will solve a lot of problems. What won't wash with the bean counters is ordering longer units for bikes. Not unless the bikes are paying full fares.

Whilst bikes are unlikely to be paying full fares, the extra capacity created by longer trains would attract more passengers without actually costing the same proportion more.

For example, a 4 coach train may provide (say) 90% more seats as well as extra luggage and cycle space than a 2 coach train, however whilst some costs would increase by 100% (lease costs, maintenance, track access charges, etc.) the staff costs don't (you still need one driver and one guard whether it's 1 coach long or 12 coaches long).

As such, if a given train is over (say) 90% full 90% of the time then there's a very good chance that lengthening the train would result in more people using the service and so would likely cover the extra costs.

In fact there's a fairly good chance that it could result in it reducing the subsidy required to run the railways (obviously not by much but by a little). In that there's a lot of fixed costs, for example if a line has 15 trains a day with 2 coaches or 15 trains a day with 4 coaches it's unlikely to alter the number of inspections that track has, it's unlikely to impact the number of times that deicing trains run during the winter, it's unlikely to change how often stations get painted or platforms resurfaces.

Even if the trains were to be 8 coaches rather than 3 it's unlikely that many of those sorts of costs would increase and if they do not buy very much.

We are at the point where, if we want to reduce the cost to the government, we need to look at how we run more coaches over sections of track which being in the most extra income without having a material cost in providing the infrastructure. Ultimately that's looking at lines which have short trains or infrequent trains and asking what needs to happen to make more people use these rail services and can that happen in such a way that the extra income more than covers the extra costs.
 
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Benjwri

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Whilst bikes are unlikely to be paying full fares, the extra capacity created by longer trains would attract more passengers without actually costing the same proportion more.

For example, a 4 coach train may provide (say) 90% more seats as well as extra luggage and cycle space than a 2 coach train, however whilst some costs would increase by 100% (lease costs, maintenance, track access charges, etc.) the staff costs don't (you still need one driver and one guard whether it's 1 coach long or 12 coaches long).
You seem to be forgetting the absolutely huge cost of building these units to increase the length of services. It’s unlikely they’d even make that cost back in their lifetime.

The majority of units are also far out of production, so you’d be talking entire new fleets, which is even more costly.

You mention it’s no more staff, but every other cost has increased proportionally. Staffing is only 1 driver and maybe a guard depending on the service. Staffing costs are large but a lot of that is off train staff, and obviously the extra trains also need maintenance.
 

xotGD

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A bike is just luggage
Then it should be treated in the same way as other luggage. Not prioritised, with other luggage and even fare paying passengers having to be moved out of the way for it.
 

Trainbike46

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You seem to be forgetting the absolutely huge cost of building these units to increase the length of services. It’s unlikely they’d even make that cost back in their lifetime.

The majority of units are also far out of production, so you’d be talking entire new fleets, which is even more costly.

You mention it’s no more staff, but every other cost has increased proportionally. Staffing is only 1 driver and maybe a guard depending on the service. Staffing costs are large but a lot of that is off train staff, and obviously the extra trains also need maintenance.
You're being way to negative here; The building costs would be included in the lease charges, so what you're saying is clearly absurd

Also @The Ham was obviously not suggesting we build extra coaches for existing sprinters or anything like that, but instead ordering more coaches in the replacement order, reshuffling fleets so that the remaining older fleets end up with a single operator (for example, see how many 170s ended up at EMR), etc.

I don't think it is at all unreasonable to suggest more capacity would increase passenger numbers on routes that are currently capacity limited, and pointing out that many costs don't increase linearly with seats provided (most notably staffing), the cost per seat goes down the more seats there are on a train
 

AHBD

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Then it should be treated in the same way as other luggage. Not prioritised, with other luggage and even fare paying passengers having to be moved out of the way for it.

If it was treated as any other luggage the allowed number of bikes wouldn't be a tiny fraction of the passenger capacity of the train...
 

Krokodil

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People leave cars worth tens of thousands of pounds in deserted streets and car parks all the time.
It's easier to steal a bike than a car.

Of course cyclists don't have to pay several hundred quid on a bike, cheaper options are available, although the cyclist won't be able to impress their co-workers quite so much (although if we are going to be brutally honest, most people think the cyclists that spend hundreds, maybe even thousands of pounds on cycle equipment are a bit of a joke, just don't tell cyclists I said that...)
Cheapest adult bike advertised on Halfords' website is £145. Few gears which makes it useless up hill (there are plenty of hills in the UK remember).

Isn't the point of having a bike to actually ride it, and not just dump it on trains. If you've bought a bike for a local job, surely you are riding it? Or I am missing something?
Yes, you are missing something. The journey from home to station and the journey from station to work. Say three to five miles at each end, would take too long to walk. Of course most people would drive if their destination wasn't walking distance from a station but for those who can't drive or choose not to then using a bike makes public transport a practical option.

Wait people are taking caravanning gear on trains now? Now you are just getting silly.
I'm beginning to think that you've never been on a regional train in your life, you appear to have no clue about so many aspects of their operation. Have you never seen a static caravan? There must be a quarter of a million of them available for hire, up and down the country.

Here's an example of the sort of caravan park that people come in large numbers to visit each summer. Most of them turn over on Monday and Friday mornings, resulting in a deluge of passengers descending on platforms complete with pushchairs (that they're very reluctant to fold), suitcases and black bags (probably containing the kitchen sink)

In the days when I signed LHCS, we could mop up no problem. Arriva's Mk3s had massive luggage racks, each TSO had space for two wheelchairs so you had no issue parking buggies in a few of them, everyone could sit at a table with their family and there was a guard's van for excess luggage and - yes - cycles. No arguments, no aggro, no ten minute dwell times, no problems. What a contrast it was from trying to wedge them into a 158.

I can't believe that this idea winds cyclists up so much..
I'm speaking for the poor, beleaguered traincrew who are on the receiving end of the DfT's crazy decisions regarding rolling stock procurement.
 

AHBD

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Isn't the point of having a bike to actually ride it, and not just dump it on trains. If you've bought a bike for a local job, surely you are riding it? Or I am missing something?

I used to cycle 3 miles to station, get train (against flow admittedly), cycle a few miles to work then cycle 15miles home. I would have thought cycle space on a trains is generally for longer journeys than a few miles ?


...but if that means vertical bike racks to save space then so be it. I can't believe that this idea winds cyclists up so much..
It is not the idea of it, it is the actual practical usage of them that winds cyclists up....
Wrestling a bike upright in a confined space (or opposite), with hook possibly at awkward height or whilst feeling under time pressure: why is that hard to believe? Another bike in the same space makes thus even more awkward.
 

miklcct

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The answer to the bike issue, which I know isn't going to happen, is to bring back van areas like we had years ago. In the 1980s we travelled all over the UK on trains with bikes and rarely had any space problems.

I did notice bikes being carried in the DVT of a TfW class 67 service last week, and there's plenty of room there. Not many trains like that though these days.

Taking a step back. Should non-folding bikes be allowed on trains?

With modern train design and the absence of guards vans, I suggest that the default answer should be "No".
If Avanti-style bike reservation is always required, it will kill off my train travel with bike because I can never guarantee which train I'll take and I'll just wait for the next one, which usually comes in 10-15 minutes, if it is too full to board.

Arguing against it being fuel plus parking (but don't forget for most that compares to train plus taxi or station parking) is a prime way to lose traffic. That IS how almost everyone sees it, and that's reasonable because most people account the big car ownership costs as effectively fixed.

The fixed costs are not low, if you look at the average cost of annual car ownership (£3,500 plus a bit) fuel costs are less than half (about 2/5th) of that total. Even adding up everything other than purchase cost, MOT, service/maintenance and insurance still doesn't get you to 50%.

As most people don't see the fixed costs all in one lump they can easily be spending (excluding purchase costs) £500 to £1,000 a year on VED, MOT, service/Maintenance and insurance without realising it.


It's why there's a desire by many not to own a car and use a combination of rail and cycle.

Of course for those who need to use a car they should want as many other people not to drive as possible as it would result in less traffic congestion (those days when traffic is a nightmare for no reason Vs those days when it's quicker than normal for no reason is a shift if 2%).

Therefore having rail capacity suitable to carry the number of people who would like to travel should be desirable to those who only drive as well as those who only go by train as a passenger as well as those who take their cycles with them.
That's exactly the reason I rely on getting my bike on trains without reservation. If bike reservation becomes compulsory on the trains I use, the effect on me is:
1. Cut most of my leisure travel as they can't easily be done by scheduled public transport alone, and regular use of taxis is unaffordable
2. Buy a cheap car and damage the environment
3. Move out of London to save money on my rent
4. Drive the car even more and damage the environment even more, as rural public transport is close to nonexistent on evenings and Sundays
 

Krokodil

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I don't think it is at all unreasonable to suggest more capacity would increase passenger numbers on routes that are currently capacity limited
Quite. Northern used to run 150s between Manchester and Blackpool. Now they're running six car 331s.
 

Benjwri

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Cheapest adult bike advertised on Halfords' website is £145. Few gears which makes it useless up hill (there are plenty of hills in the UK remember).
Which I can guarantee at some stations will still be stolen, certainly would at my old local one. Made the mistake of leaving a cheap bike there and I came back to find it without a wheel. Unfortunately most people can't afford to buy even a new wheel, let alone bike (No matter how cheap) every time they go to work.
 

occone

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I used to cycle 3 miles to station, get train (against flow admittedly), cycle a few miles to work then cycle 15miles home. I would have thought cycle space on a trains is generally for longer journeys than a few miles ?



It is not the idea of it, it is the actual practical usage of them that winds cyclists up....
Wrestling a bike upright in a confined space (or opposite), with hook possibly at awkward height or whilst feeling under time pressure: why is that hard to believe? Another bike in the same space makes thus even more awkward.
Absolutely, from my experience 80% of bikes that do get hung vertically are feather light racing bikes with curly handlebars, and 80% of bikes just shoehorned in horizontally are normal bikes. Great for the professional cyclist but not so great for an average person with a normal bike. Maybe the DfT has a very rigid idea of what a cyclist is and doesn't realise they are (usually) normal humans. Yes really!

I made a thread a while back on how inadequate vertical storage space is for bikes, especially ebikes, and how vertical storage is already basically obselete:
 

jon0844

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And if you need a bike at both ends of your commute, maybe get a second bike and lock it up at Leeds?

If bike theft was taken more seriously here, more people would likely do that. They certainly do in many countries where cycling is very popular and it's clear trains could never accommodate them all.

The fact is, we don't punish bike thieves as we might if they stole cars. The police just want to give a reference number for insurance, and catching a bike thief would most likely be accidental (perhaps having arrested them for something else, then discovering a bunch of bikes in a lockup or whatever).

Yes, forces will occasionally do a high-profile sting - maybe once a year or something, to send out a message but that's it. A token gesture.

You also need to have sufficient bike parking facilities at both stations.

We have a long way to go, and even a lot of cycle lane construction doesn't encourage cyclists to go into town by bike instead of car when the likelihood is you'll need to carry one or more gold-standard locks and may still find your bike gone if you leave it for anything more than a few minutes.

As such, cyclists will want to remain near their bikes at all times.. the same on a train.

Yeah Leeds is one place where I've seen too many bikes for a unit boarding, even on the 333s with the vertical stands. Although the number that don't even bother to go for the areas for bikes shows that some cyclists can be equally as ignorant as some passengers who won't vacate cycle areas when required to.

Some TOCs/liveries don't make it clear where bike areas are. Even the GWR 387s that GN now have don't have clear markings for the accessible coach, compared to all the others.

If you're on a busy platform with a bike, buggy or wheelchair (perhaps with someone that means you don't need to ask for assistance) and the train comes in, are you standing in the right place? At what point do you spot the section you need and move down on the platform as others are boarding and alighting? Are all platforms clearly zoned and the train details shown - including being correct in case a train is in reverse formation?

With a 717, you can put a bike or buggy at either end of the unit. There's also an area for a bike, but not marked, and then the marked accessible area for wheelchairs first and other users second. With a train that has an area in one of a number of coaches, how is anyone expected to know? A lot of cyclists will be leisure cyclists, not commuters, and may be using a train to go one way and cycling back - or vice versa.

And then there are the instructions on how to secure a bike. Some will have tip up seats and that's it, others with some velcro straps, others that lock the pedals, others that stand the bike up.. are cyclists supposed to understand all of that? We have accessible coaches that adhere to guidelines on the space, the backboards, the design of a toilet etc - but bike areas are a total mess. Are there guidelines or standards, or can a TOC just rip out some seats and put up a bike sign and job done?
 
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Benjwri

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Even the GWR 387s that GN now have don't have clear markings for the accessible coach, compared to all the others.
GWR 387s actually have a significant amount of markings telling you that you can’t put a bike in a number of places, and no marked place you can put them. In fact I’ve been told by an RPI before that they effectively don’t carry bikes on them as there is no ‘safe or marked space’, and kicked off at the next stop (on a train which I was the only passenger in the carriage, and getting off the stop after for reference).

Funnily enough witnessed an incident on one on Friday where a (funnily enough folding, but at the time unfolded) bike was leaned against the doors on the right hand side, presumably the passenger thought the doors always opened on the left, and had left their bike entirely unattended. At Reading we pulled into Platform 15 and the bike proceeded to fall onto the unlucky passenger that opened the door.
 

Kite159

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The fact is, we don't punish bike thieves as we might if they stole cars. The police just want to give a reference number for insurance
So about the same response you will get if you wanted to report a car as stolen, other than it getting marked on the number plate register as stolen and randomly gets picked up by a patrol with the camera if the crims are foolish enough not to change the plates.

Now if bikes had visible number plates, the police would be able to do the same, unless your want them to stop everybody who is on a bike of a particular colour to check the underside for a small security marker
 

jon0844

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You need to stop a car to check the VIN precisely because people change plates, so I guess that - yes - you would need to stop a motorist and a cyclist to properly check the car/bike if you were proactively trying to stop crime.

No doubt people would get upset by this, which is another reason the police are probably less keen to get involved.

And so here we are.
 

Falcon1200

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Some TOCs/liveries don't make it clear where bike areas are.

A good point. On the trains on which I most often take my bike, the designated areas are all at one end of one coach. On a 2-car Class 156 not a major issue, but not so on a 3 or 4-car Class 380 where the bike coach is an driving vehicle, meaning there is no way of knowing which end it will be until the train arrives! Which can lead to bikes being boarded on the 'wrong' coach.
 

BluePenguin

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One advantage of filling a carriage with table seats is that there's space between seat backs for large luggage. Coach D in an Avanti Voyager is useful here.


You'd like to think so. In reality, the reaction I've had when I've needed to ask people to vacate the wheelchair space makes you question humanity.


An argument the other year resulted in a mother being fined a few hundred quid for what she called me when I told her that there was no room for an unfolded pram.
Who gave her this fine? What exactly was she fined for?
 

Krokodil

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Who gave her this fine? What exactly was she fined for?
The magistrate. I can't remember what the specific offence was (might have been Public Order Act) but as it included a homophobic slur it was classed as a hate crime.
 

Oxfordblues

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Heading to the Glastonbury Festival with my bike I made sure well in advance to reserve a cycle space from Reading to Castle Cary on the previous Friday. When the train arrived at Reading the cycle space on the 5-car IET was stacked to the ceiling with suitcases. With only a 2-minute stop there was no time to move the luggage so the guard asked me to wait for the next train. This was 2 hours later so, fearing a repetition, I went into Paddington to ensure my bike was stowed before the punters boarded. Needless to say, on arrival back at Reading there was another cyclist whose space I'd taken so he had to wait for the next train too!
 
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