Lumo applies to operate Rochdale - London

[Snow1964]

Article suggests Lumo have applied for permission to run 6 trains a day between Rochdale and London via Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton le Willows, Warrington Bank Quay
Will be run with new battery electric units

FirstGroup plans to expand its open access rail operations as part of its Lumo business, building on Lumo’s existing service which has transformed long-distance connectivity between London and Edinburgh and helped support a growth in passenger numbers for all operators on the East Coast Mainline. All of the trains on this new route will be electric and battery powered, and the service will be operated by brand new trains built in the UK.

FirstGroup’s proposal for six return journeys a day aims to restore a direct Rochdale to London link via Manchester Victoria which last ran in the year 2000. The trains will run from Rochdale to London Euston, calling at Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay. The station at Eccles provides connectivity for other parts of the City of Salford, including the fast-growing MediaCity area, via the nearby interchange with Metrolink and services to Newton-le-Willows will deliver greater rail connectivity for St Helens.

It is estimated that this new service would provide 1.6 million people in the North West with a convenient and competitively priced direct rail service to London from stations that are more local to them, helping to stimulate a shift in transport mode from coach and car travel to rail.

FirstGroup Chief Executive Officer Graham Sutherland said: “We have extensive experience of running open access rail operations and we want to bring our successful Lumo service to this new route that connects Rochdale and London. We have seen the level of growth and opportunity that is possible with open access, as well as the positive effect it has on the wider market, including economic and environmental benefits.

“In addition, the new service will help to drive modal shift from road to rail between the North West and London. We will be working closely with stakeholders as we build our application and our case for this new service.”

FirstGroup has submitted a formal application to the ORR. A consultation period will now follow, as well as discussion with Network Rail to secure the required approvals. It is anticipated that services could begin in the 2027 calendar year.

Doesn't look like the Regulator has published the application

FirstGroup applies to run Rochdale to London rail service with new British-built trains

FirstGroup plc, the leading

www.firstgroupplc.com

FirstGroup applies to run open access Rochdale to London rail service - Rail UK

FirstGroup applies to run open access Rochdale to London rail service - Rail News

railuk.com

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Application to run Rochdale to London.

FirstGroup plc, the leading private sector transport operator, has submitted the first phase of an application for a new open access rail service between Rochdale and London to the Office of Rail and Road (ORR), restoring this direct link for the first time in almost a quarter of a century.

FirstGroup plans to expand its open access rail operations as part of its successful Lumo business, building on Lumo’s existing service which has transformed long-distance connectivity between London and Edinburgh and helped support a growth in passenger numbers for all operators on the East Coast Mainline. All of the trains on this new route will be electric and battery powered, and the service will be operated by brand new trains built in the UK.

FirstGroup’s proposal for six return journeys a day aims to restore a direct Rochdale to London link via Manchester Victoria which last ran in the year 2000. The trains will run from Rochdale to London Euston, calling at Manchester Victoria, Eccles, Newton-le-Willows and Warrington Bank Quay. The station at Eccles provides connectivity for other parts of the City of Salford, including the fast-growing MediaCity area, via the nearby interchange with Metrolink and services to Newton-le-Willows will deliver greater rail connectivity for St Helens.

FirstGroup applies to run Rochdale to London rail service with new British-built trains

FirstGroup plc, the leading

www.firstgroupplc.com

 

[skyhigh]

With new British-built battery electric units. Wonder what they will be?

 

[Topological]

Excellent if it works.

Presumably there is an abstraction issue with Crewe (even pick up only north, set down south).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this about keeping their foot in the door on the WCML post nationalisation? As otherwise they're competing with themselves...

 

[danbarjon]

One would wonder if said battery operated built in UK trains was Hitachi why they can't buy some more carriages for their ECML stock.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Is this about keeping their foot in the door on the WCML post nationalisation? As otherwise they're competing with themselves...

Lumo is designed to compete with other forms of transport, in Edinburgh’s case the budget airlines, in Rochdale’s case the budget coaches.

No different to SNCF’s Ougio operation on paper ‘competing’ with the TGV but in reality it’s about trying to grow the rail market share.

 

[Snow1964]

I'm not sure what rolling stock they are planning, maybe an 807 with batteries. How many miles off the wires is this proposed service

 

[jfollows]

I'm not sure what rolling stock they are planning, maybe an 807 with batteries. How many miles off the wires is this proposed service

9m 66ch I think, x2 of course. +50ch x2 to Victoria rather than limit of electrification. Say 21 miles in total.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is this about keeping their foot in the door on the WCML post nationalisation? As otherwise they're competing with themselves...

First doesn't make revenue from ticket sales from Avanti though. Otherwise one could say SWR and GWR are competing on London-Exeter, Lumo and Avanti are competing on London-Edinburgh, and when TPE was run by First, TPE and Hull Trains competing on Selby-Hull, TPE and Avanti competing between Wigan and Edinburgh/Glasgow and TPE and Lumo competing Newcastle-Edinburgh.

Presumably there is an abstraction issue with Crewe (even pick up only north, set down south)

First never says in the press release quoted in comment #1 that the service will call at Crewe though. Only at Warrington Bank Quay, Eccles, Manchester Victoria and Rochdale.

Are there enough paths for a service like this on the WCML, especially when you add in the proposed Grand Union and WSMR services?

 

[Topological]

First never says in the press release quoted in comment #1 that the service will call at Crewe though. Only at Warrington Bank Quay, Eccles, Manchester Victoria and Rochdale.

Are there enough paths for a service like this on the WCML, especially when you add in the proposed Grand Union and WSMR services?

Exactly, which makes me presume that they asked and were told no because of abstraction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there enough paths for a service like this on the WCML, especially when you add in the proposed Grand Union and WSMR services?

I believe there's one path per hour for open access on the WCML which is currently unused. Whether you can fit them all in depends on if they all want the same one.

 

[The Planner]

Are there enough paths for a service like this on the WCML, especially when you add in the proposed Grand Union and WSMR services?

In a word, no.

 

[wilbers]

What timescales are the other potential WCML open access operators looking at starting with their proposals? Says for this one its calendar year 2027.

Thinking longer term, once HS2 [phase 1] is open to Birmingham does that allow for more paths for operations such as this from further north to operate on classic WCML south, or are the cancelled sections the limitation for that?

 

[The Planner]

What timescales are the other potential WCML open access operators looking at starting with their proposals? Says for this one its calendar year 2027.

Thinking longer term, once HS2 [phase 1] is open to Birmingham does that allow for more paths for operations such as this from further north to operate on classic WCML south, or are the cancelled sections the limitation for that?

If everything is squeezing through Colwich off HS2, then there will be no capacity for multiple OAO operators. GUT is meant to be 2025.

 

[XCTurbostar]

I assume if this is the LUMO brand that it will be similar spec 803s with batteries. First Group clearly believes that there are enough paths on WCMLS to warrant the application.

 

[cle]

Maybe they won't get all of them. But 6 will be spread out, and other OAs get other hours. It's not like hourly Blackpool is needed. And the new Liverpool will cover those TV stops well. This gets out of the way, being first stop Warrington (and that call is the likely bone of contention here!)

Lumo is designed to compete with other forms of transport, in Edinburgh’s case the budget airlines, in Rochdale’s case the budget coaches.

This is somewhat naive - I don't think this service is about Rochdale at all - a sad little dead town. It's a turnback.

If the works were done, this would be really interesting to call at Salford Central, however. Would also give a Warrington BQ connection to Central, which might be useful for many.

 

[Brissle Girl]

One would wonder if said battery operated built in UK trains was Hitachi why they can't buy some more carriages for their ECML stock.

Because the number needed is not attractive enough for Hitachi to put a sensible offer on the table. However, I would imagine any order for the Rochdale service would then be increased to enable the ECML enhancement to be included too.

 

[The Prisoner]

Maybe they won't get all of them. But 6 will be spread out, and other OAs get other hours. It's not like hourly Blackpool is needed. And the new Liverpool will cover those TV stops well. This gets out of the way, being first stop Warrington (and that call is the likely bone of contention here!)


This is somewhat naive - I don't think this service is about Rochdale at all - a sad little dead town. It's a turnback.

If the works were done, this would be really interesting to call at Salford Central, however. Would also give a Warrington BQ connection to Central, which might be useful for many.

Surely stopping the current hourly Chester to Leeds service - which runs Bank Quay to Victoria - at Salford Central would be a) easier and b) be in place if it was worthwhile?

This about a slice of the Manchester to London cake - nothing more or less.

 

[Grimsby town]

Surely stopping the current hourly Chester to Leeds service - which runs Bank Quay to Victoria - at Salford Central would be a) easier and b) be in place if it was worthwhile?

This about a slice of the Manchester to London cake - nothing more or less.

Unless somebody builds some platforms, neither of them will be stopping. Salford Central only has platforms on lines towards Salford Crescent.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This is somewhat naive - I don't think this service is about Rochdale at all - a sad little dead town. It's a turnback.

Many said the same about GC’s Hartlepool and it’s done okay!

 

[Sorcerer]

Considering that Lumo's business model is the rail equivalent to that of a low-cost airline, I suspect they'd opt for some more Hitachi units since they will not only be cleared for WCML use with the 805 and 807s, but also simply because of fleet uniformity in a similar way to low-cost airlines opting for mostly one kind of aircraft/manufacturer. Of course I must also acknowledge that airline businesses come with their own economics that simply won't apply to rail, and as such maybe a uniformed fleet won't be as advantageous (plus even EasyJet and Ryanair have one or two different kinds even if the majority are a single type).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Considering that Lumo's business model is the rail equivalent to that of a low-cost airline, I suspect they'd opt for some more Hitachi units since they will not only be cleared for WCML use with the 805 and 807s, but also simply because of fleet uniformity in a similar way to low-cost airlines opting for mostly one kind of aircraft/manufacturer. Of course I must also acknowledge that airline businesses come with their own economics that simply won't apply to rail, and as such maybe a uniformed fleet won't be as advantageous (plus even EasyJet and Ryanair have one or two different kinds even if the majority are a single type).

That I guess will depend on how reasonable a price Hitachi want. Suggestions on here is that they're asking too much of late, hence LNER's choice of CAF. They'll likely be maintained separately anyway (no sense in basing a Manchester service at Newcastle) so different fleets may not matter.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

This'll be interesting to see.
I hope local journeys on these would be avaliable, I'd imagine a lot of the traffic will get off at Warrington or Victoria, leaving space for locals.

Also, isn't Rochdale platform 4 (the south facing terminus platform) occupied most of the time?
Where would another train fit

 

[cle]

Unless somebody builds some platforms, neither of them will be stopping. Salford Central only has platforms on lines towards Salford Crescent.

Indeed. And the Chester-Leeds calling would be a great addition too.

Warrington's main service to Manchester transitioning to Victoria sets up the metrolink CLC conversion nicely!

Many said the same about GC’s Hartlepool and it’s done okay!

That's fair. But that service links a few miserable places which add up to a thing.

Manchester is definitely ripe for competition. Overripe. Birmingham and now Newcastle/Edinburgh do.

 

[Sorcerer]

That I guess will depend on how reasonable a price Hitachi want. Suggestions on here is that they're asking too much of late, hence LNER's choice of CAF. They'll likely be maintained separately anyway (no sense in basing a Manchester service at Newcastle) so different fleets may not matter.

Different depots is a very fair point I didn't consider. Perhaps the CAF option would be a good follow-on order to LNER's order (and quite possibly TPE's 29 future trains) with the only difference being an electric-only specification with a battery pack on board.

It'll be years before any possible Lumo services will be happening anyway so there's also plenty of time for things to change.

 

[Snow1964]

That I guess will depend on how reasonable a price Hitachi want. Suggestions on here is that they're asking too much of late, hence LNER's choice of CAF. They'll likely be maintained separately anyway (no sense in basing a Manchester service at Newcastle) so different fleets may not matter.

I guess Hitachi are now short of future work, and if First Group / Lumo said we need X trains and would like 2 extra carriages for existing (or whatever).

Some sort of clone of class 803 or 807 for quick delivery, would be simple option, as long as the volume and price makes sense for Hitachi.
Potentially they might be much happier with a definite straightforward order from the private company than a subject to tender and lot of messy negotiations from a DfT subsidised operator.

 

[mangyiscute]

Presumably there is an abstraction issue with Crewe (even pick up only north, set down south).

Also probably pathing issues of stopping at Crewe, it'll be much easier fitting them through non stop than occupying a platform.
Furthermore, Lumo would never want to do pu/sd only since that would leave empty seats from Crewe to London, which being the longest part of the route will mean charging passengers a lot more, so having empty seats here will make it much less profitable.

The market is travel to London, any other journeys this creates is just coincidence they will be purely trying to fill seats through to London, that is the only case that is anywhere near economically plausible.

 

[zwk500]

I guess Hitachi are now short of future work, and if First Group / Lumo said we need X trains and would like 2 extra carriages for existing (or whatever).

Some sort of clone of class 803 or 807 for quick delivery, would be simple option, as long as the volume and price makes sense for Hitachi.
Potentially they might be much happier with a definite straightforward order from the private company than a subject to tender and lot of messy negotiations from a DfT subsidised operator.

Isn't the IET power system designed in a modular way, with the idea being that the Gensets could be removed to convert Bi-Mode units into BEMUs or EMUs once electrification had rolled out further? In which case tagging onto an order for bi-modes but with BEMUs may well be a reasonably priced option.

 

[The Planner]

Also, isn't Rochdale platform 4 (the south facing terminus platform) occupied most of the time?
Where would another train fit

Won't fit in P4 at Rochdale, its 105m long. 5 car sets are 130m.