Lumo applies to operate Rochdale - London

[zwk500]

Won't fit in P4 at Rochdale, its 105m long. 5 car sets are 130m.

Given that P1 isn't reversible and P3 isn't reachable from the south, presumably the plan will be then to reverse on the Metrolink spur?

 

[redreni]

Many said the same about GC’s Hartlepool and it’s done okay!

Every time I've got that train, nearly everyone has got off at York.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Every time I've got that train, nearly everyone has got off at York.

I occasionally get that train (when it's not cancelled) and yes, a lot get off at York but a lot do go to Hartlepool and Sunderland and quite a few do get on in York, especially when there's a match day in either Hartlepool or Sunderland with people coming across the Pennines and changing at York.

 

[skyhigh]

Given that P1 isn't reversible and P3 isn't reachable from the south, presumably the plan will be then to reverse on the Metrolink spur?

If I'm thinking of the same spur as you (the unused one that use to be part of the Oldham Loop), it's currently out of use but I'm sure it could be brought back without too much fuss.

Different depots is a very fair point I didn't consider. Perhaps the CAF option would be a good follow-on order to LNER's order (and quite possibly TPE's 29 future trains) with the only difference being an electric-only specification with a battery pack on board. It'll be years before any possible Lumo services will be happening anyway so there's also plenty of time for things to change.

Based on nothing but pure speculation on my part, I wonder if they could be CAF sets similar to the LNER order but maintained at Newton Heath - which has a CAF presence already. I suspect there's no spare capacity there though.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Maybe they won't get all of them. But 6 will be spread out, and other OAs get other hours. It's not like hourly Blackpool is needed. And the new Liverpool will cover those TV stops well. This gets out of the way, being first stop Warrington (and that call is the likely bone of contention here!)


This is somewhat naive - I don't think this service is about Rochdale at all - a sad little dead town. It's a turnback.

If the works were done, this would be really interesting to call at Salford Central, however. Would also give a Warrington BQ connection to Central, which might be useful for many.

Rochdale is a dead town, But a town with a big catchment around it - Oldham, Bury, Bacup etc.

 

[The Planner]

Given that P1 isn't reversible and P3 isn't reachable from the south, presumably the plan will be then to reverse on the Metrolink spur?

Its the only way it will work by the looks of it.

 

[Along the bay]

Perhaps getting the service going is a first step towards somewhere else? Blackburn comes to mind.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If I'm thinking of the same spur as you (the unused one that use to be part of the Oldham Loop), it's currently out of use but I'm sure it could be brought back without too much fuss.

How long a train could presently be accommodated in the 'Rochdale Turnback'?

 

[The Planner]

How long a train could presently be accommodated in the 'Rochdale Turnback'?

If you mean the Metrolink connection, as long as it wants. It will fit a 5 car no worries.

 

[cle]

Perhaps getting the service going is a first step towards somewhere else? Blackburn comes to mind.

I was thinking Stalybridge and Huddersfield.

If Salford Central works ever happened, I don't think Eccles would be worth it. But I'd be curious if it was pushed around MediaCity, or some corporate deals done, there could be uptake.

 

[anthony263]

I guess Hitachi are now short of future work, and if First Group / Lumo said we need X trains and would like 2 extra carriages for existing (or whatever).

Some sort of clone of class 803 or 807 for quick delivery, would be simple option, as long as the volume and price makes sense for Hitachi.
Potentially they might be much happier with a definite straightforward order from the private company than a subject to tender and lot of messy negotiations from a DfT subsidised operator.

Grand Union I heard wanted some class 805s but Hitachi were asking too much wonder if they'll try again

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I see the RMT has given the proposal a hearty welcome.
Their nightmare is FirstGroup being granted more access rights on the network.

Train operator Lumo plans new direct service from Greater Manchester to London

FirstGroup submits application for alternative route between capital and Rochdale

www.theguardian.com

However, the RMT union said open access operators were “not fronting up the true costs” and that Avanti owner FirstGroup was “one of the worst train operating companies we have ever dealt with” and should not be given additional rights.
The RMT general secretary, Mick Lynch added: “Open access is part of a parasitic private model where operators do not pay the full costs of everything that is involved in running the service, and they are effectively cross subsidised by the taxpayer.”

North Western Trains had a go at this sort of service in the early days of privatisation (using class 158s and combining Rochdale with a Blackpool service at Newton-le-Willows).
They gave up when the true cost of running the service emerged.
Class 180s might have operated the service had it survived.
They weren't allowed to stop at main Virgin stations in that franchise era.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The FNW Rochdale service was I understand profitable, the problem was that it was offered useless paths once the West Coast modernisation started.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

North Western Trains had a go at this sort of service in the early days of privatisation (using class 158s and combining Rochdale with a Blackpool service at Newton-le-Willows).

Believe the combining and splitting location was actually at Warrington Bank Quay.

IIRC, passengers weren't allowed to board or alight there.

 

[jfollows]

The FNW Rochdale service was I understand profitable, the problem was that it was offered useless paths once the West Coast modernisation started.

Up slow line from Tring to Euston, for example.

 

[The Planner]

Grand Union I heard wanted some class 805s but Hitachi were asking too much wonder if they'll try again

221 was their latest plan, not heard anything said about 800s. They need traction they can get their hands on now, not new builds.

 

[MylesHSG]

More grand plans, how many OAR's have applied for West Coast Mainline routes now?

They'd be better seeing what Euston and the route is looking like after Phase 1 of HS2 opens.

 

[Snow1964]

More grand plans, how many OAR's have applied for West Coast Mainline routes now?

They'd be better seeing what Euston and the route is looking like after Phase 1 of HS2 opens.

Getting paths on busy lines can often be subject to timetables so staking claim to paths now forces Network Rail and ORR to look at why they can't fit now, or when others alter services in future, explain why new operator still can't have few paths.

It is going to be much harder to get paths Litchfield - Lancashire if wait until HS2 operator has also bid for slots or changes.

 

[The Planner]

Getting paths on busy lines can often be subject to timetables so staking claim to paths now forces Network Rail and ORR to look at why they can't fit now, or when others alter services in future, explain why new operator still can't have few paths.

It is going to be much harder to get paths Litchfield - Lancashire if wait until HS2 operator has also bid for slots or changes.

HS2 will push them out the way regardless, and I also expect the rights to be time bound as well.

 

[Snow1964]

Grand Union I heard wanted some class 805s but Hitachi were asking too much wonder if they'll try again

I am guessing price is linked to volume, if just want token number then quote is likely to be high.

If two companies want versions, then rather more incentive to run the production line. And of course if going through a Rosco they could do one bigger order and lease to two or more customers.

There are potentially orders for services to Stirling, Carmarthen, Sheffield, and wouldn't rule out Lumo wanting extra vehicles to lengthen busy Scotland services. Lumo could even switch fleets between routes if trains had different capacities.

What I not sure about is if First Group, which according to corporate reports has very profitable Lumo, would order the trains anyway, and take the risk that they need an alternative home for them, rather than wait for ORR approval before ordering.

 

[357]

If two companies want versions, then rather more incentive to run the production line. And of course if going through a Rosco they could do one bigger order and lease to two or more customers.

There are potentially orders for services to Stirling, Carmarthen, Sheffield, and wouldn't rule out Lumo wanting extra vehicles to lengthen busy Scotland services. Lumo could even switch fleets between routes if trains had different capacities.

Indeed.

There's also the big question mark over the Grand Central fleet after 2027. While not part of First it's something I'd imagine a ROSCO and train builder would take into consideration if GC were looking for new trains.

 

[Greybeard33]

If you mean the Metrolink connection, as long as it wants. It will fit a 5 car no worries.

A layover in the Metrolink spur might conflict with TfGM's plan for an Oldham to Heywood tram-train service, which would run on the main line between Rochdale and Castleton.

 

[redreni]

I occasionally get that train (when it's not cancelled) and yes, a lot get off at York but a lot do go to Hartlepool and Sunderland and quite a few do get on in York, especially when there's a match day in either Hartlepool or Sunderland with people coming across the Pennines and changing at York.

Right, but I'm not convinced demand for the service between Sunderland and York can justify why a very infrequent direct service to London is required (seemingly instead of, rather than as well as, local trains between Sunderland and York).

Wouldn't it be much better to have a more frequent, more regular, more predictable service from Sunderland down to York, with those who want to continue their journey from there (whether to London or not - as you say, a lot of people do want to go to places other than London) changing at York?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Telegraph (article behind paywall, so unable to quote) seems to think the new Lumo service is to get BBC staff to Media City in Salford quicker.
The Eccles stop would be handy for the tram link to Salford Quays.
I doubt very much that potential BBC passengers entered into the Lumo planning, but you'd expect a London-based right-wing anti-levelling-up paper to pretend that it did.

BBC staff get new London-Manchester train service

Planned route will aid those travelling to the media outlet’s Salford office

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Energy]

The Telegraph (article behind paywall, so unable to quote) seems to think the new Lumo service is to get BBC staff to Media City in Salford quicker.
The Eccles stop would be handy for the tram link to Salford Quays.
I doubt very much that potential BBC passengers entered into the Lumo planning, but you'd expect a London-based right-wing anti-levelling-up paper to pretend that it did.

BBC staff get new London-Manchester train service

Planned route will aid those travelling to the media outlet’s Salford office

www.telegraph.co.uk

Indeed, very strange article. Unsuprising for the Telegraph...

 

[YorkRailFan]

Right, but I'm not convinced demand for the service between Sunderland and York can justify why a very infrequent direct service to London is required (seemingly instead of, rather than as well as, local trains between Sunderland and York).

Wouldn't it be much better to have a more frequent, more regular, more predictable service from Sunderland down to York, with those who want to continue their journey from there (whether to London or not - as you say, a lot of people do want to go to places other than London) changing at York?

There is quite a lot of demand for that service. Its usually full. No one has the stock to provide a York-Sunderland service and GC only has limited paths. I doubt a York-Sunderland service would be profitable for GC, hence the extension to London to make the service worthwhile for GC.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Given that P1 isn't reversible and P3 isn't reachable from the south, presumably the plan will be then to reverse on the Metrolink spur?

It must be.

Long term wise how about extending it all the way to Bradford and put in another platform adjacent to the run round loop ?

I was going to suggest Halifax and reinstate the 3rd platform but extending it to Bradford could potentially (if pathing allowed) a semi fast service from Bradford to Manchester.

Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester

 

[Clarence Yard]

I am guessing price is linked to volume, if just want token number then quote is likely to be high.

If two companies want versions, then rather more incentive to run the production line. And of course if going through a Rosco they could do one bigger order and lease to two or more customers.

There are potentially orders for services to Stirling, Carmarthen, Sheffield, and wouldn't rule out Lumo wanting extra vehicles to lengthen busy Scotland services. Lumo could even switch fleets between routes if trains had different capacities.

What I not sure about is if First Group, which according to corporate reports has very profitable Lumo, would order the trains anyway, and take the risk that they need an alternative home for them, rather than wait for ORR approval before ordering.

First won’t be able to lease anything unless they obtain a track access agreement. The financiers and/or ROSCOs won’t sign a deal with any OA operator unless they have one.

 

[Energy]

First won’t be able to lease anything unless they obtain a track access agreement. The financiers and/or ROSCOs won’t sign a deal with any OA operator unless they have one.

I'd assume a deal is 'worked out' and just needs the dotted line signing once the TAA is agreed?

 

[357]

a semi fast service from Bradford to Manchester.

Bradford - Halifax - Rochdale - Manchester

A route that already has 2 trains per hour from Leeds that take 45 minutes from Halifax to Manchester.

I'd love a faster service to Manchester but the way to do it isn't by skipping two stations that Northern call at, but by raising the linespeed and other infrastructure improvements.