Lumo Revenue Enforcement on Strike Day

[Rugose]

New to the Forum, I'm wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience to mine.

Before the announcement of the Wed 1st Feb strike, I'd bought a ticket from National Rail TrainSplit to travel on that day on the 10.27 Newcastle to Kings Cross train. This was cancelled and I'd been informed by National Rail TrainSplit that if I still wanted to travel:

"You do not need to purchase additional tickets to complete your journey.
Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket(s)."

As I had to travel, I followed the advice and caught the next train, the 10.55 from Newcastle to Kings Cross. Once on the train I was informed by a ticket inspector that my ticket was not valid as this was a Lumo train and my ticket was issued for a LNER train. I explained that my ticket was bought from National Rail and following my original train's cancellation I assumed I was correctly following the emailed advice. My purchase wasn't from LNER but from National Rail, who sell tickets on behalf of the Rail Delivery Group (which includes LNER and Lumo). I had assumed that if National Rail TrainSplit had been advising me to catch the next train run by the same operator as the cancelled train, then it would have explicitly said so. I couldn't see any "operator restrictions" on my ticket, just the name of the operator.

My apparent innocent mistake in following possibly unclear advice led to me being treated as a fare dodger by Lumo staff. I was told I could pay an additional fare or leave the train at Doncaster, the first opportunity. I left the train at Doncaster and joined the next LNER train to Kings Cross.

However, I was surprised to be met at the Kings Cross ticket barrier by the Lumo inspector and British Transport Police. The Lumo official maintained I owed her company money and I was advised to give her my name and address, which I did.

The whole unpleasant episode disturbs me as the ambiguous advice which I followed and the lack of cooperation between Lumo and LNER has led to me being treated like a petty criminal. On the other hand, when I informed Customer Support at National Rail TrainSplit I received a very prompt and considerate reply, fully appreciating how innocent mistakes could arise following TrainSplit advice in the event of a cancelled train. They even offered to email to that effect, in support, should Lumo proceed any further.

 

[hexagon789]

National Rail doesn't sell tickets though, they act as a portal for all the Train Companies. You would've bought the ticket from one of the TOCs even if you started your purchasing process on the National Rail site.

 

[Dai Corner]

Take the next available service which matches the route and operator restrictions on your ticket

The 'operator restriction' in this case is that the ticket was only valid on Lumo trains.

Who are 'National Rail Trainsplit'? National Rail are, as a previous poster said, a portal for the Train Operating Companies. Trainsplit' is an independent ticket retailer.

 

[ainsworth74]

It might be worth clarifying that National Rail provide information on services operated within Great Britain but do not sell tickets. TrainSplit are a third-party retailer who sell tickets for travel on services within Great Britain. They are not the same company so there's no such thing as National Rail TrainSplit. Perhaps it feels pedantic but worth keeping in mind.

That being said I can see why you might be confused by the instruction in that email considering I would assume your tickets will have had something like "LNER & Connections" under the "Route" field. Whilst this is what is meant by an "Operator Restriction" for the unwary I can see why they wouldn't necessarily clock that.

I'm slightly puzzled why Lumo proceeded to question you at Kings Cross if you had gotten off at Doncaster in line with their instructions. But it is good that TrainSplit appear to be willing to provide some supporting evidence to indicate an acceptance that the instruction given may not have been totally clear. We don't have much information on Lumo's approach to revenue proteciton but the best bet at the moment would be to wait and see what they send to you in writing (if anything). If you want to upload a copy of that correspondence (suitably redacted with personal identifiable information removed) we'd be happy to advise.

National Rail doesn't sell tickets though, they act as a portal for all the Train Companies. You would've bought the ticket from one of the TOCs even if you started your purchasing process on the National Rail site.

Indeed but I think it's clear we're dealing with TrainSplit here not a TOC website.

The 'operator restriction' in this case is that the ticket was only valid on Lumo trains.

I think you may mean LNER?

 

[Dai Corner]

I think you may mean LNER?

Yes. Sorry.

 

[hexagon789]

Indeed but I think it's clear we're dealing with TrainSplit here not a TOC website.

Ah, didn't see that @ainsworth74 - the bit I read was:

My purchase wasn't from LNER but from National Rail, who sell tickets on behalf of the Rail Delivery Group (which includes LNER and Lumo.)

The other thing is LUMO don't call at Doncaster, even on Wednesday the 1055 ran fast Newcastle to King's Cross.

Also seems unusual for BTP to attend for a small ticketing offence?

 

[30907]

1. I don't think TrainSplit are at fault here - it is difficult to know what else "operator restrictions" could mean - though they seem to be being pro-customer anyway.

2. Looking at RTT, the Lumo lost 5 min through Doncaster, meaning that it may have made an unscheduled stop (RTT often doesn't pick these up).

3. I agree that BTP attendance is surprising, unless there is more to the story than we so far know.

 

[ainsworth74]

it is difficult to know what else "operator restrictions" could mean

If I'm totally new to rail travel how do I know what the operator restriction is on this ticket?

 

[gray1404]

That seems like a massive overreaction to make an additional call on a service just because a passenger holes the wrong ticket and then to do a steak out and wait for them at King's Cross getting off an LNER train

 

[yorkie]

Lumo are right to say the ticket wasn't valid, as the operator restriction wasn't adhered to, but it sounds like they handled the situation appallingly.

However, I was surprised to be met at the Kings Cross ticket barrier by the Lumo inspector and British Transport Police. The Lumo official maintained I owed her company money and I was advised to give her my name and address, which I did.

Unfortunately some rail staff are like that; it's a minority but it leaves a bitter taste. Such people do the entire industry a disservice, but they don't tend to care as long as their own commision or their own company benefits. If your account is correct, you followed their instructions, so that should be the end of the matter.

The whole unpleasant episode disturbs me as the ambiguous advice which I followed and the lack of cooperation between Lumo and LNER has led to me being treated like a petty criminal. On the other hand, when I informed Customer Support at National Rail TrainSplit I received a very prompt and considerate reply, fully appreciating how innocent mistakes could arise following TrainSplit advice in the event of a cancelled train. They even offered to email to that effect, in support, should Lumo proceed any further.

That's great to hear!

If I'm totally new to rail travel how do I know what the operator restriction is on this ticket?

View attachment 128149

The problem is that the industry never created an Operator field in the database, so the fudge to place operator restrictions in the route field exists to this day. I can think of potential solutions to this, but that would of course be for another thread!

 

[AlterEgo]

Lumo don’t call at Doncaster. Why did the train stop there? Did it, in fact?

Train companies aren’t usually in the habit of calling BTP to meet you 200 miles down the line if you’ve complied with their instructions to leave the train.

I’m afraid this is a confusing case and it’s hard to believe we have all the relevant information here.

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at RTT, the Lumo lost 5 min through Doncaster, meaning that it may have made an unscheduled stop (RTT often doesn't pick these up).

I don't see a 5 min delay at Doncaster? I see it passing 4 early and then Bridge Jn 2 early.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see a 5 min delay at Doncaster? I see it passing 4 early and then Bridge Jn 2 early.

Marshgate Jn to Bridge Jn should take half a minute, not 5 minutes. The timings are consistent with a station stop, or being stopped at a signal. I also see the train appears to have been routed through platform 1, rather than the usual line (Down Fast).

 

[AlterEgo]

So why is Lumo stopping out of course at Doncaster then? Was this scheduled anyway, picking up staff? It’s hard to believe they simply told someone to alight when all they’d done was board the wrong train, *and* arranged for BTP to be at King’s Cross.

I’m not saying it can’t happen - Lumo are weird and don’t quite work in the same way as the established railway…

 

[Bletchleyite]

So why is Lumo stopping out of course at Doncaster then? Was this scheduled anyway, picking up staff? It’s hard to believe they simply told someone to alight when all they’d done was board the wrong train, *and* arranged for BTP to be at King’s Cross.

I’m not saying it can’t happen - Lumo are weird and don’t quite work in the same way as the established railway…

Is it possible that the OP was perhaps, shall we say, less than polite to them?

A failure of the "attitude test" would cause some staff to bring in the big guns.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

My purchase wasn't from LNER but from National Rail, who sell tickets on behalf of the Rail Delivery Group (which includes LNER and Lumo).

Yes, there is a bit of a "confidently incorrect" vibe about this.

 

[robbeech]

If I'm totally new to rail travel how do I know what the operator restriction is on this ticket?

View attachment 128149

You aren't expected to know, you're expected to pay the price if you don't. The Railway.

That seems like a massive overreaction to make an additional call on a service just because a passenger holes the wrong ticket and then to do a steak out and wait for them at King's Cross getting off an LNER train

Is it possible that the OP was perhaps, shall we say, less than polite to them?

A failure of the "attitude test" would cause some staff to bring in the big guns.

Of course, we'll never know the full extent of the conversation between them, but to add a special stop order for a passenger with the wrong ticket is unlikely unless there is much more to it. To bring the BTP in at the destination given when the passenger alights there is absolutely no telling which train they'll catch or if indeed they're going to go to London at all seems very bizarre indeed.

I suspect one of the following scenarios :

1) The interaction whilst incorrect on the part of the passenger went as they claim, and at King's Cross, the Lumo staff member just happened to see the passenger again and alerted nearby BTP

2) The passenger was rude or aggressive to the staff member and a SSO was created to remove them from the train. Perhaps BTP were called to Doncaster but never made it in time and the passenger managed to get an LNER train before they arrived.

3) The whole thing is made up based on an SSO at Doncaster and a bad experience previously with Lumo

4) Many more things.

Either way, the passenger will have to wait for a letter to arrive.

 

[Rugose]

Thanks for all the helpful comments.

I take the point that TrainSplit is an independent ticket agency. I was assuming it was set up by National Rail, as the website is billed as "Official Site" and the back of the tickets say "Supported by National Rail". Clearly an error on my part.

The Lumo ticket inspectors were pretty aggressive from the beginning, which didn't help. The 10.55 Newcastle train was crowded, was one of the few trains running because of the strike and had only 5 carriages. The stop at Doncaster was unscheduled and seems to have been made solely to let myself and two other passengers in the same circumstance off the train. We were informed that a LNER train would arrive at Doncaster in the next hour, which indeed it did.

Being stopped at Kings Cross by Lumo with British Transport Police was indeed a surprise. The BTP were actually quite friendly. They accepted I wasn't a "fare dodger" in the way characterised by the Lumo ticket inspector and acknowledged that sometimes inspectors can get a little overzealous. We agreed that Lumo would take a picture of the emailed advice that was the core of the confusion and I would give Lumo my details

 

[zero]

The stop at Doncaster was unscheduled and seems to have been made solely to let myself and two other passengers in the same circumstance off the train.

Do you know what happened to the other two passengers?

 

[Adam Williams]

I was assuming it was set up by National Rail, as the website is billed as "Official Site" and the back of the tickets say "Supported by National Rail". Clearly an error on my part.

The "National Rail Accredited" logo basically means that the site has been checked to make sure that the retailer follows the rules, fulfill tickets properly and buying a ticket from the retailer will result in the TOCs getting paid correctly. It's still an independent, third-party business.

 

[SargeNpton]

Marshgate Jn to Bridge Jn should take half a minute, not 5 minutes. The timings are consistent with a station stop, or being stopped at a signal. I also see the train appears to have been routed through platform 1, rather than the usual line (Down Fast).

No report in TOPS of the train stopping out of course at Doncaster on 1st February.

 

[Wallsendmag]

All that and knocked out of the cup as well , bad couple of days.

 

[LowLevel]

No report in TOPS of the train stopping out of course at Doncaster on 1st February.

That would only be the case if the stop was input. Quite frequently if I've been given permission to stop to drop someone off from the wrong train or whatever reason our control would say yes but never input the stop, only giving the NR route controller the tip that it was happening.

 

[johncrossley]

Surely a complaint should be lodged with Lumo about this? I certainly won't be travelling with them in future.

 

[spag23]

The RPIs ordered an unscheduled stop simply to eject someone who has an an incorrect ticket following strike disruption?
Unless the OP is omitting a key element from their account, this seems to be a wholly disproportionate course of action.

 

[3rd rail land]

Surely a complaint should be lodged with Lumo about this? I certainly won't be travelling with them in future.

If what the OP says is true it does sound a like a bit of heavy handed way to handed the situation so by all means put in a complaint but it doesn't change the fact that the ticket held was not valid. We of course are only getting one side of the story so if it may have been a case of the OP failing the attitude test as mentioned upthread. I highly doubt a complaint will get the OP out of the fact their ticket was not valid so they should co-operate with whatever action Lumo take. If the matter is taken further the OP could politely point out that the email they received was confusing and didn't make it clear that Lumo trains were off limits in this instance but if the email did not come from Lumo I am not sure if this will be successful.

 

[Watershed]

If I'm totally new to rail travel how do I know what the operator restriction is on this ticket?

View attachment 128149

It's certainly not 100% clear. However, there is a point to be made specifically in relation to this issue, which is that LNER & Connections Advances don't actually exclude the use of other operators. They can be issued for a variety of itineraries such as LNER & TPE, LNER & XC etc. so as far as I can see, the member of Lumo staff was wrong to reject the ticket even on that basis.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If I'm totally new to rail travel how do I know what the operator restriction is on this ticket?

View attachment 128149

By reading the Ts&Cs when you buy it?

And yes, I know lots of people don't but that is their problem not the TOC's.

 

[Adam Williams]

They can be issued for a variety of itineraries such as LNER & TPE, LNER & XC etc. so as far as I can see, the member of Lumo staff was wrong to reject the ticket even on that basis.

The customer didn't travel on their itinerary, though. They exercised their right under NRCoT condition 9.4 which is quite explicit about travelling with the originally booked operator.

 

[Fishnchipsrule]

It's certainly not 100% clear. However, there is a point to be made specifically in relation to this issue, which is that LNER & Connections Advances don't actually exclude the use of other operators. They can be issued for a variety of itineraries such as LNER & TPE, LNER & XC etc. so as far as I can see, the member of Lumo staff was wrong to reject the ticket even on that basis.

1. If your ticket shows a route "LNER and Connections", you will be reserved on to all necessary LNER trains and connecting trains of other companies at the time of booking. Please note that if you take connecting trains other than those shown on your ticket, your ticket won't be valid.