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Luton Dunstable railway - dual use solution

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A0wen

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If I remember rightly the buildings you speak of are retail units. The owners of which not having any sentimental attachment to them, will move on if paid the going rate. This will cost money but less than a major railway remod with grade seperated junctions.

Looking at Google Earth as you recomend, I also note that the remaining section of the formation runs very close to the A505. So it might even be possible to run the railway alongside the road and leave the shops alone.

As for the Luton Airport link road, as it is on a high enough embankment to go over the Midland Mainline. I would suggest that an adjacent single span for the branch should also be possible.

OK so the track at Bute Street has been replaced with a car park. So what, the track would probably have needed replacing anyway after ~ 20 years of disuse, and a bit of tarmac won't take much shifting. The main advantage of replacing the connection like for like is that unless the station has been resignalled since the connection came out. The layout of the remaining signalling will have a hole in it, that will fit the signalling required for the connecting line. This will help reduce the amount of signal design and alteration required, and S&T work does not come cheap.

But as I said these are least stupid options, as the costs against traffic will not add up.

I think you've missed a slightly larger obstacle at the south end.... Luton Airport Parkway station's multi-storey car park. I'm pretty sure that and it's approach road are on the formation.

There is no space alongside the A505 and the retail units - the retail units are 'elevated', there is a retaining wall along the edge of the car park and the space between that retaining wall and the road is about 6' wide - nowhere near enough.

Where I do agree with you is any suggestions this is all a bit stupid. It's not going to be reinstated, there isn't the traffic to justify it - despite the protestations of 'alfred roberts' to the contrary. Even less likely is the laughable suggestions that Dunstable can sustain a 'heritage railway' of circa 400yds in length in an urban area with no scenic attraction.

Anyone in the south Beds area who wants to get involved in a heritage railway should offer their services to any of the following:

- Leighton Buzzard Narrow Gauge railway
- Bucks Railway Centre (Quainton Road)
- Northampton & Lamport Railway
- Northants Ironstone Railway Trust (Hunsbury Hill)
- Rushden Historic Transport Society
- Irchester Narrow Gauge Museum.

OK, they're not in Dunstable / Luton, but they are all close at hand (<1hr away) and all are regularly advertising for volunteers.
 
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R

RailUK Forums

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Thanks for the replies, sorry to have taken to long to reply.

Other railways

Thanks for the list of nearby railway lines and museums.

Yes I was aware there are a number of standard guage railways and museums at Aylesbury and Northampton. I was aware there are a number of miniature and narrow guage in Beds and Herts as another man gave me a list.

But none of these attractions are standard guage railways in Beds or Herts or South Cambs.

Looking at spacing between attractions - Yes - the Luton and Dunstable area is only 20 to 40 miles from the standard guage railways around Aylesbury and Northampton, but due to the distance to the West between these attractions (which are after all in the Midlands) and Luton and Dunstable (on the Western boundary of Eastern England) all these standard guage railways are over 100 miles from similar attractions in East Anglia.

Connection to main line at Luton
This is a picture of the former connection at Luton http://www.lostlines.fotopic.net/p24800944.html
taken 28 July 1991.

It can be seen that the trailing junction and connection to and from the Dunstable branch is some distance to the South of the station at Luton, so the station at Luton would not be compromised by a new chord allowing through running from London to and from the former Dunstable line, the existing connection has no effect on the Luton station, and the new chord would need to be built some distance to the South of the existing junction.

Rolling Stock
I had recognised in my writings that additional Electric Multiple Units would be required for Dunstable services.

Investment levels
Yes the dual - use proposal DOES represent a large investment - BUT so does the guided bus way - it is variously reported to be of £89 to £92 million with a £9 to £12 million contribution from the council(s).

Local opinion
I have to be careful what I say here - BUT - it would seem to some that the guided bus way really does appear to be very unpopular in the eyes of many there - just look at some of the press coverage!

The guided bus way remains extremely controversial. A Luton Lib Dems annual poll of 25,000 houses found 96% of hundreds of respondants were opposed to it.
http://www.lutonlibdems.org.uk/index.php/2010/09/96-say-no-to-busway/

In an article in the Dunstable Gazette the local Tory M.P. Andrew Selous revealed that he had been inundated with e-mails and letters opposing the guided bus way and only one person had written to him in favour of it.
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/local/luton_dunstable_busway_contract_to_be_kept_secret_1_1037907

' Lib Dem Councillor Jenny Davies added: “They talk about trying to save money, but £92 million on a busway that nobody wants, that’s ludicrous. They’re spending money like it’s going out of fashion." '
http://www.lutontoday.co.uk/news/local/many_thanks_and_goodbye_1_2320046

Central Bedfordshire Unitary Council has only expressed corporate support for the guided bus way (despite Beds County Council withdrawing in 2004) because Luton Borough Council would have been allowed to go ahead regardless if they had opposed it, and they would have had zero control over implementation of it.
http://www.centralbedfordshire.gov.uk/modgov/mgAi.aspx?ID=15569

The short running line in the heritage railway proposal: -

There is a proposal for a longer running line for the proposed heritage railway East of High Street North - this is summarised below.

This is controversial as the design of the bus way at the cutting at South Apex would have to be altered and there are concerns raised about possible loss of open space at Dunstable Park.

At Dog Kennel Path: -
Concrete retaining wall along the South face of the Dog Kennel Cutting, the bus way would be moved 11 - 13 - 15 foot to the North, Northern retaining wall would be full height of cutting and the disused railway moved 6 - 4 - 2 foot to South, so that a single-track railway could run to the South of the bus way lanes.

At East end of Dog Kennel Cutting: -
East of the North West corner of the West Playing Court the single-track railway line would cross the boundary of the disused railway corridor with the Park.

Along Park: -
The single-track railway line would be slewed to South to run along a narrow strip of land on the Park beside the disused railway corridor, most of which is currently covered by encroaching undergrowth.

All trees in Park retained in situ.

At Court Road: -
The single-track railway would terminate at Court Road. Surveys of the disused railway formation after the foliage was cleared raised the issue as to whether the design would raise the railway to the level of the bus way and Court Road (through route) on to a widened embankment or leave the railway at the level of the surrounding land.

See http://south_bedfordshire_railway.webs.com/extensiontocourtroad.htm

Extension to West
Also in the distant future in theory the line could cross High Street North and run past the council offices (gardens and car park) to and across Brewers Hill Road and past the industrial units in to the open country side beyond.

The previous postings went in to a political discussion.....

O/T but I wholeheartedly agree with you about the failings of the previous government.

As you have said instead of paying off debt Labour ran a deficit of £28 to £42 billion p/a for six years between mid-2002 and mid-2008 - this is often overlooked but this added up to £204 billion in total - and then failed to spend much on capital spending (this was often put on PFI) and spent a lot on wage rises for themselves etc - a process often described as the "public-sector gravy-train."
 
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A0wen

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Thanks for the replies, sorry to have taken to long to reply.

Other railways

Thanks for the list of nearby railway lines and museums.

Yes I was aware there are a number of standard guage railways and museums at Aylesbury and Northampton. I was aware there are a number of miniature and narrow guage in Beds and Herts as another man gave me a list.

But none of these attractions are standard guage railways in Beds or Herts or South Cambs.

Looking at spacing between attractions - Yes - the Luton and Dunstable area is only 20 to 40 miles from the standard guage railways around Aylesbury and Northampton, but due to the distance to the West between these attractions (which are after all in the Midlands) and Luton and Dunstable (on the Western boundary of Eastern England) all these standard guage railways are over 100 miles from similar attractions in East Anglia.

So Beds, Herts and South Cambs don't have a standard guage heritage line - So what? Neither (from memory) does Surrey, Berkshire, West Sussex, East Yorkshire or Northumberland (happy to be corrected if I'm wrong on any of these). Nor does Greater London for that matter.

Even some other areas you might expect to have standard guage railways owing to their tourist credentials (which with the greatest respect Dunstable will never have) only have a limited presence - Lincolnshire only has the Lincs Wolds which has taken a number of years to grow. Dorset has Swanage and the beginnings of a scheme on the old S&D. Along the south coast from Swanage to Exeter? Nothing.

And does it matter if there's 100 miles from Quainton Road to a similar attraction in Essex? On that logic, the furthest anyone is from such an attraction is 50 miles (the halfway point). And I fail to see why a heritage scheme in Dunstable will help that. All you're doing is saying 'Dunstable is in Eastern England and there should be such an attraction in "Eastern England" nearby'. Yet there are perfectly good attractions of that nature nearby, it's just that they are outside of an arbitrary geographic area.

Even if you draw a straight line from Quainton to the Colne Valley railway, let's look at the towns that passes near / through:

Luton & Dunstable - plenty of alternatives have already been offered
Stevenage - the Nene Valley is less than an hour up the A1M and offers far more than a 400 yard journey through Dunstable ever will. And if you can't drive there is a very good train service between Stevenage and Peterboro.
Bishops Stortford - You're not likely to travel cross country to Dunstable (it's a nightmare journey) so there's no way this scheme would attract people from there. Add to that the Epping Ongar railway is approx 30 mins down the M11 and Colne valley isn't much further going East.


Connection to main line at Luton
This is a picture of the former connection at Luton http://www.lostlines.fotopic.net/p24800944.html
taken 28 July 1991.

It can be seen that the trailing junction and connection to and from the Dunstable branch is some distance to the South of the station at Luton, so the station at Luton would not be compromised by a new chord allowing through running from London to and from the former Dunstable line, the existing connection has no effect on the Luton station, and the new chord would need to be built some distance to the South of the existing junction.

You really haven't looked at this properly. As I pointed out previously, I'm fairly sure the MML configuration is the two eastern tracks are the 'Slow' lines, the two western tracks, the 'Fast' lines.

The Dunstable link would need to be onto the slow lines - there is no space for a flyover - look at Google earth. Even if there was you'd need to signifcantly re-align the slow lines to accomodate it - which would cost a huge amount.

If you crossed the fasts on the level, you'd impact the number of paths on the fasts - which are already close to capacity. So you'd happily compromise MML capacity just to serve Dunstable?

Rolling Stock
I had recognised in my writings that additional Electric Multiple Units would be required for Dunstable services.

And not explained where it would come from... given the existing stock is already allocated.

As for the rest of it -yes, some people are opposed to the guided busway, others are probably in favour - the fact is that the rail link has been out of use for 40 years, its mainline connection and formation have been disrupted, its capacity as heavy rail is decidedly limited (single line with limited passing loop opportunity).

The cost is unknown, though I'd hope some lessons have been learnt from Cambridge - not least make it as simple as possible and allow the use of generic vehicles.

As for Dunstable becoming a 'tourist destination' - apart from the Downs and Whipsnade zoo, there really is nothing to attract your average tourist. Since a 400 yard railway won't go anywhere near either of these (nor did the original line to Leighton Buzzard for that matter) it has virtually no attraction to any sane individual.
 

Nick Catford

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Status of the disused railway line

In planning terms the use of the land by the disused railway line has not been abandoned as not all the track is gone, the ballast is still there and the land has not been redeveloped.


What part of the track is still there ? I know the track on the east side of Skimpot bridge was still there at the end of December but it has now been lifted.

Nick
 

Greenback

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As for Dunstable becoming a 'tourist destination' - apart from the Downs and Whipsnade zoo, there really is nothing to attract your average tourist. Since a 400 yard railway won't go anywhere near either of these (nor did the original line to Leighton Buzzard for that matter) it has virtually no attraction to any sane individual.

I don't think alfred is going to take any notice of this, even though it makes perfect sense and is pretty obviosu tot he vas tmajority of people, even in Dunstable itself!
 

A0wen

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I don't think alfred is going to take any notice of this, even though it makes perfect sense and is pretty obviosu tot he vas tmajority of people, even in Dunstable itself!

Sadly I think you're right. The problem is the railway preservation movement seems to have a disproportionate number of 'fellow travellers' who have no real grasp on reality. Problem is they give the rest of us who have an interest in this a bad name.
 

route:oxford

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Status of the disused railway line

In planning terms the use of the land by the disused railway line has not been abandoned as not all the track is gone, the ballast is still there and the land has not been redeveloped.


What part of the track is still there ? I know the track on the east side of Skimpot bridge was still there at the end of December but it has now been lifted.

Nick

Well, looking at google maps - some of the tract appears extant (but not sure when the images were taken).

Oddly enough, it looks like the tarmacadam was spread over the tracks at the luton car park end. You can see the course of the track from the overhead shot.
 
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asylumxl

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Well, looking at google maps - some of the tract appears extant (but not sure when the images were taken).

Oddly enough, it looks like the tarmacadam was spread over the tracks at the luton car park end. You can see the course of the track from the overhead shot.

Track has been lifted.
 
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