"Machines are going to put humans out of work"

[northwichcat]

This is an argument which put forward time and time again, particularly on this forum.

However, it turns out the same argument was made over 100 years ago by the Luddities of West Yorkshire who didn't want machinery to be introduced in to factories and when it was introduced they went around smashing it up.

https://wyascatablogue.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/luddite-booklet-cover.jpg

Man Vs Machine
The Luddities of West Yorkshire

'Friends and Fellow Mortals...Will you suffer your children to be tortured out of existence by bearing the lashes of hunger and nakedness"

http://www.executedtoday.com/images/Frame_Breaking_Reward.jpg

Frame breaking
£200 Reward

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-T2XX_7uOU...ee+to+Supress+Outrages+reward+poster+copy.png

General Meeting of Magistrates, Merchants, Manufacturers and Inhabitants of Huddersfield

It appears to this meeting, that is a violent and determined spirit of insubordination has gained much ground amongst the workmen employed in various trades and manufactures

Yet somehow we found new roles to replace the ones which we lost.

 

[NSEFAN]

People moved out of rural areas and into towns and cities where factories were operating. One job was replaced with another, and you could quite easily learn a trade on the job without too much prior knowledge beyond reading, writing and 'rithmetic.

On the other hand, increasingly techincally-complicated jobs require more skills and training, which can take years to accumulate. Technology is also improving much faster than it was in the 19th century, meaning it's more likely for a career to be scuppered unexpectedly and quite quickly. This clashes even more with the time taken to re-train, especially for older generations where learning new and vastly different skills may be harder.

I don't think it's all doom and gloom, but people do need to be careful. There's no such thing as a job for life anymore. I would recommend that every young person think hard about what they want to do, but to have several backup plans so they're not stuffed by automation should it end up making them redundant.

 

[Dai Corner]

As a child in the 1960s I read books about mechanisation which suggested we'd only have to work two or three days a week due to the greater productivity the machines would bring.

I spent the 1980s and 90s computerising the insurance company I worked for. Rather than a shorter working week it meant we survived as a company and picked up the business from those who failed to innovate, keeping our people busy.

In the twenty first century I moved on to IT in education and saw computers introduced to the classroom in a big way. They were starting to realise the the gains when I retired a couple of years ago. Not only in teaching resources but in using pupil data to identify trends and targeting those who 'could do better'.

Where is this ramble leading? I think what I'm saying is we shouldn't ever be afraid of technology, but embrace it. It makes some jobs easier so there will always be work for the less skilled, even if it's different to what their fathers did.

Railways were hi-tech in the 19th century after all!

 

[Essan]

I run an antique centre and also work for a charity that renovates ruined buildings in remote upland areas inaccessible by road, and maintain them as open shelters for hilvwalkers etc. Zero chance of machines putting me out of a job!

I also remember when I worked in insurance and computers were going to lead to a "paperless society". All they did was create even more reams of paper with endless reports ......

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s heading away from that now, though. Very rarely is anything printed in my (IT) job.

 

[Dai Corner]

It is in the Insurance industry too, judging by the fact I have to print my own documents now.

Schools are somewhat behind, with teachers printing or photocopying resources and students printing out reams of work for teachers to take home and mark. There are products which allow this all to be done online but I don't know of any schools which have adopted them widely.

 

[DarloRich]

They will................... eventually.

 

[Dai Corner]

They will................... eventually.

It was like stepping back 20 years when I started at the school. There was just one email address which was managed by the Heads secretary. People wrote memos and put them in pigeon holes. Registers and reports to parents were handwritten. Teachers gave handwritten manuscripts of handouts to typists to type up and photocopy.

Things have improved since younger teachers have joined and got into senior positions and older ones have retired.

 

[Crossover]

It’s heading away from that now, though. Very rarely is anything printed in my (IT) job.

The main thing I print are invoices as our processes and technology don't cater for them staying digital - hopefully that will change in the future. Generally in the business we generate too much paperwork for various things and again I hope it changes in the future. The amount of paperwork we have stored is a bit crazy - in our department (IT) there is relatively little

 

[PeterC]

As a child in the 1960s I read books about mechanisation which suggested we'd only have to work two or three days a week due to the greater productivity the machines would bring.

I spent the 1980s and 90s computerising the insurance company I worked for. Rather than a shorter working week it meant we survived as a company and picked up the business from those who failed to innovate, keeping our people busy.

In the twenty first century I moved on to IT in education and saw computers introduced to the classroom in a big way. They were starting to realise the the gains when I retired a couple of years ago. Not only in teaching resources but in using pupil data to identify trends and targeting those who 'could do better'.

Where is this ramble leading? I think what I'm saying is we shouldn't ever be afraid of technology, but embrace it. It makes some jobs easier so there will always be work for the less skilled, even if it's different to what their fathers did.

Railways were hi-tech in the 19th century after all!

Three days a week? That was supposed to the the 21st century version of a sweatshop! When I retired a few years ago my contracted hours were longer than in 1971.

 

[Dai Corner]

Three days a week? That was supposed to the the 21st century version of a sweatshop! When I retired a few years ago my contracted hours were longer than in 1971.

Mine would have been if I hadn't gone part time for the last couple of years. 37.5 vs 35

If you don't mind me asking, what industry were you in Peter?

 

[northwichcat]

Mine would have been if I hadn't gone part time for the last couple of years. 37.5 vs 35

These days 'standard office hours' tend to be 9-5 with 30 minutes lunch or 8.30-5 or 9-5.30 with 60 minutes lunch. There has been research in to breaks and those who get a 60 minute lunch break then to be more productive in the afternoon.

I think 9-5 with 60 minutes lunch is less common than 9-6 or 8-5.

 

[Bletchleyite]

These days 'standard office hours' tend to be 9-5 with 30 minutes lunch or 8.30-5 or 9-5.30 with 60 minutes lunch. There has been research in to breaks and those who get a 60 minute lunch break then to be more productive in the afternoon.

A longer day with a longer lunch break is certainly my preference. I am far more productive if I have been out for a walk, and 30 minutes isn't enough for that *and* lunch.

 

[Dai Corner]

In my first job we worked flexible hours and could start, finish and take our lunch breaks when we wanted provided we worked our contracted hours and the office was manned between 8am and 6pm. Excess hours could be accumulated and taken as additional leave.

 

[Bromley boy]

A longer day with a longer lunch break is certainly my preference. I am far more productive if I have been out for a walk, and 30 minutes isn't enough for that *and* lunch.

Sadly that reality is not reflected by U.K. office culture, in my experience.

In many offices “face time” is valued more than productive output. Employees generally arrive late, faff around and gossip throughout the day, and stay at work into the evening in order to be seen to be “working late”.

Workers who adopt the (sensible) approach of arriving promptly, working efficiently, taking a decent break and leaving on time will be perceived to be slacking or “leaving early” (despite the latter group having arrived earlier and achieved more throughout the day).

 

[fowler9]

Sadly that reality is not reflected by U.K. office culture, in my experience.

In many offices “face time” is valued more than productive output. Employees generally arrive late, faff around and gossip throughout the day, and stay at work into the evening in order to be seen to be “working late”.

Workers who adopt your (sensible) approach of working efficiently, taking a decent break and leaving on time will be perceived to be slacking or “leaving early” (despite the former group having arrived earlier and achieved more throughout the day).

When I was lucky enough to have flex time I normally started later and stayed later as it meant less likelyhood of having to stand on public transport. On the odd occasion I did start early I noticed that the regular early starters used to chat rat or read the paper until more people turned up. Purely anecdotal from one (rather large) company though. I got more done when loads of other people had left. I have found also that as years have gone by 40 hour weeks seem to have become a lot more common with a reduction in the hourly rate.

 

[Mag_seven]

I remember in the 70's TV programmes like "Tomorrow's World" stating that due to increased automation etc we would have loads of leisure time on our hands.

 

[Dai Corner]

Sadly that reality is not reflected by U.K. office culture, in my experience.

In many offices “face time” is valued more than productive output. Employees generally arrive late, faff around and gossip throughout the day, and stay at work into the evening in order to be seen to be “working late”.

Workers who adopt the (sensible) approach of arriving promptly, working efficiently, taking a decent break and leaving on time will be perceived to be slacking or “leaving early” (despite the latter group having arrived earlier and achieved more throughout the day).

Back in the 1980s, as part of the computerisation I referred to above, systems were in place at my employer to identify the 'faffers' and 'grafters'. All work in and out was recorded and a notional amount of time allocated for each task. Management had access to the statistics down to an individual level.

 

[richw]

It was like stepping back 20 years when I started at the school. There was just one email address which was managed by the Heads secretary. People wrote memos and put them in pigeon holes. Registers and reports to parents were handwritten. Teachers gave handwritten manuscripts of handouts to typists to type up and photocopy.

Things have improved since younger teachers have joined and got into senior positions and older ones have retired.

My daughter's school use a online portal, and we (my wife) gets an email notification everytime daughter does something good/bad.

 

[AlterEgo]

Sadly that reality is not reflected by U.K. office culture, in my experience.

In many offices “face time” is valued more than productive output. Employees generally arrive late, faff around and gossip throughout the day, and stay at work into the evening in order to be seen to be “working late”.

Workers who adopt the (sensible) approach of arriving promptly, working efficiently, taking a decent break and leaving on time will be perceived to be slacking or “leaving early” (despite the latter group having arrived earlier and achieved more throughout the day).

How true this is.

I used to have a routine of arriving shortly past 8am, and leaving at just gone 4:30pm having done my hours. However such is the culture of presenteeism where I work, I was picked up on it and told (despite our policy of flexible working) to be in the office between 9:30am and 6pm, which completely spoils my work/life balance. I’ve just been signed off with work related stress, though I’ll add it’s not just because of that.

 

[Dai Corner]

My daughter's school use a online portal, and we (my wife) gets an email notification everytime daughter does something good/bad.

One of the last projects I completed before retiring was to put in a system like that. It could also be used to inform parents if their children failed to attend and even tell them what they had for dinner. The difficulty is in ensuring the info is accurate and that held them back. Obviously your daughter's school is a bit further along the line than mine was.

 

[Starmill]

There are products which allow this all to be done online but I don't know of any schools which have adopted them widely.

My University phased out the requirement for dead tree media in almost all departments so that now even my dissertation is electronic submission only.

 

[richw]

One of the last projects I completed before retiring was to put in a system like that. It could also be used to inform parents if their children failed to attend and even tell them what they had for dinner. The difficulty is in ensuring the info is accurate and that held them back. Obviously your daughter's school is a bit further along the line than mine was.

We can log in and see what she had for lunch, they upload a weekly newsletter, we get a text message and email if she's absent, but as she's only 5, I normally know already that she isn't there, maybe more useful for secondary school kids. The teacher also uploads photos of the various activities they do.

 

[Dai Corner]

My University phased out the requirement for dead tree media in almost all departments so that now even my dissertation is electronic submission only.

As students used to doing this become teachers I'm sure schools will start to adopt it too.

 

[richw]

As students used to doing this become teachers I'm sure schools will start to adopt it too.

An organisation i am a member of refused to adopt ‘non paper’ systems because the dinosaurs on the committee didn’t think they’d like it. Average age of membership is about 35, average age of committee is well over 70. Unfortunately we can’t moan as nobody stood against these dinosaurs, as the membership all work full time and don’t have time!

 

[fowler9]

Seems like instead of the promised utopia of more free time we are moving towards computer hell. Both parents having to work full time to be able to pay for the house and any childcare, constant online updates on if your child misbehaves. Constant monitoring in work of how long you spend on the bog. It burns my brain out. Working on what is effectively a computerised call centre we are monitored constantly on just about everything other than "Did you solve the customers problem". Solving problems really doesn't matter any more since many call centres are outsourced all that matters is meeting SLA's. Get people off the phone as quickly as possible and if they have to call back who cares as long as you get them off the phone again as quickly as possible.

 

[Bromley boy]

How true this is.

I used to have a routine of arriving shortly past 8am, and leaving at just gone 4:30pm having done my hours. However such is the culture of presenteeism where I work, I was picked up on it and told (despite our policy of flexible working) to be in the office between 9:30am and 6pm, which completely spoils my work/life balance. I’ve just been signed off with work related stress, though I’ll add it’s not just because of that.

Sorry to hear that.

There is certainly lip service paid to flexible working in many industries but how realistic this is seems to vary a great deal, and depends on whether your boss is an adult or not. "Flexible working" that is subject to a requirement to be in the office during "core hours" of 0930-1800 (i.e. a typical working day for many), isn't really very flexible at all.

What really wound me up, in one particular previous role, was a clock watching boss whose idea of flexible working only went one way. I was expected to be flexible enough to stay late into the evening (unpaid of course) to get things done, but was then sent a snotty email for daring to leave the office at 1730 rather than 1800 to go to a Dr's appointment. This, and many similar, incidents rapidly eroded any remaining goodwill and underlined my decision to resign and spend my notice period doing sweet FA .

 

[Mojo]

As students used to doing this become teachers I'm sure schools will start to adopt it too.

Possibly, but teachers also value being able to sit on the couch at home when marking or perhaps do their marking on the train home this is not as feasible as it sounds in all situations.

IT 'solutions,' particularly those implemented in the public sector seem to be pretty poor with no input given by those actually using the system (or if they are given the opportunity to comment portrayed as "dinosaurs" when they give the inevitable comment about how dreadful it is) and actually add stress and/or reduce productivity.

 

[northwichcat]

IT 'solutions,' particularly those implemented in the public sector seem to be pretty poor with no input given by those actually using the system (or if they are given the opportunity to comment portrayed as "dinosaurs" when they give the inevitable comment about how dreadful it is) and actually add stress and/or reduce productivity.

Usually the developers want to ensure the product is released bug free and alongside user documentation. However, usually management are happy to agree to release the product prior to it being at that stage which ends up resulting in what the developer's consider to be the finished product never happening.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Possibly, but teachers also value being able to sit on the couch at home when marking or perhaps do their marking on the train home this is not as feasible as it sounds in all situations.

It mostly is - download the work to your laptop.