Made a genuine error - Now I face a criminal record

[Shawthing]

Hi All,

I have been looking through a lot of other requests for advice, but still feel very unsure of where I stand and what I should do next.

I live in Hertford and commute regularly to Liverpool St. from Hertford East station. I have been travelling via this route for the last 2 years, and frequently buy weekly season tickets (I work from home for a week every so often, so weekly is the cheapest option for me) using my photo travelcard. On this particular route, since the beginning of 2013, Greater Anglia do not make a distinction between standard class and First class, so for this reason I go straight to first class seating on every single journey, outbound and return.

Yesterday I was in a rush to get home (My dog was rushed to vets) and left work early to get an earlier train home. Unfortunately I missed the train by about 1 minute! A member of staff could clearly see I was a little distressed and pointed me to the train on the adjacent that was going to Cambridge, and told me I could change at Broxbourne to get ahead of the Hertford East train. I was so relieved.

I took his advice and jumped on the train, and in a moment of complete absent mindedness, I did the same thing I do every single journey and went straight to the first class seats. As soon as I sat down a warrant officer asked to see my ticket and, well, I'm sure you all know the procedure. I tried to politely explain the situation, I admitted I had made an error and offered to pay the difference or a penalty fare, but he was not interested in the slightest.

I From what I have been reading on here I am now in a very difficult situation. I admit that, through sheer absent mindedness, I have made an error and would accept the consequences if it was just a fine, but I believe a court appearance and criminal record is genuinely disproportionate to the mistake I made.

I swear, hand on heart, I was not trying to evade paying the extra fair, and genuinely didn't realise what I had done, my mind was totally fixed on getting to Hertford to be with my dog. Even when the warrant officer first asked to see my ticket - for the first moment I couldn't understand, and kept saying "But I have a ticket"!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as I'm really worried about this.

P.S. The other thing that bothered me at the time was, the young guy opposite me had a standard season ticket to Cambridge, so knew very well he was dodging the extra fair by sitting in First Class, and so the warrant officer also took his ticket. However, a couple of minutes later when pulling into the next station the passenger asked if he could have his ticket back and just get off the train here. To my amazement the warrant officer replied "Sure, no problem" and gave him his ticket back and watched him leave!! Another passenger who witnessed this gave me his phone number and said if I make a complaint he will back me up.

 

[jb]

You're not facing a criminal record even if you are prosecuted, which on the basis of what you have said seems unlikely (it is likely you can settle this before it reaches court). But first you need to be clearer and more specific about what happened with the inspector. It is likely you were told that you should expect a letter in due course asking for your version of events. Can you confirm this?

By the way, none of the "mitigating circumstances" in the first 3-4 paragraphs of your post above are relevant. (You won't rely on them at all to settle this).

 

[michael769]

Sorry to hear about your mishap.

Firstly the train companies cannot fine you only a court can do that so the option of paying a fine without court does not exist.

However that does not mean that it is inevitable you will end up in court.

The first thing that will happen is that you will get a letter from the operator asking for an explanation. You should explain what happened truthfully and completely. It is not inevitable that they will decide to prosecute, they may for example be happy with your explanation and take no further action.

A more likely option is that they may offer you an out of court settlement where you pay the full cost of a First Class ticket along with a contribution towards their administration costs. If this is something you want to happen there is no harm in indicating in your letter that you would be willing to make such a payment.

In the unlikely event that it went to court it would be likely that you would be prosecuted for failing to produce a valid ticket when requested to do so an offence that does not carry a criminal record. There is a more serious offence of intentional fare evasion that does, however based on your version of events it would be unlikely that there is evidence to support conviction for this offence.

The issue with the other travelers ticket is completely irrelevant as it has no bearing on your own guilt or innocence. I urge you not to try to bring it up as it will only muddy the issue and reduce your chances of getting a positive outcome.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

By the way, none of the "mitigating circumstances" in the first 3-4 paragraphs of your post above are relevant. (You won't rely on them at all to settle this).

I do not agree. While it may not be relevant to the question of failing to display a valid ticket, it is relevant to the question of intent required for the more serious offence.

It may also influence what measures the Train Company decide take on the matter.

 

[Shawthing]

You're not facing a criminal record even if you are prosecuted, which on the basis of what you have said seems unlikely (it is likely you can settle this before it reaches court). But first you need to be clearer and more specific about what happened with the inspector. It is likely you were told that you should expect a letter in due course asking for your version of events. Can you confirm this?

By the way, none of the "mitigating circumstances" in the first 3-4 paragraphs of your post above are relevant. (You won't rely on them at all to settle this).

Hi JB, thank you very much for taking the time to reply.

The Warrant officer did say I would be receiving a letter, although he was not specific about what it would contain. He told me I was under caution and was asking lots of present tense questions like "Do I understand this is first class", Do I understand an additional fare is required to sit here", "Do I have the means to pay for a first class ticket" etc. He also then wrote down everything I said about how I came to make the mistake.

Out of curiosity, if none of the mitigating circumstances are relevant, what will I be relying on to settle this?

 

[Shawthing]

Sorry to hear about your mishap.

Firstly the train companies cannot fine you only a court can do that so the option of paying a fine without court does not exist.

However that does not mean that it is inevitable you will end up in court.

The first thing that will happen is that you will get a letter from the operator asking for an explanation. You should explain what happened truthfully and completely. It is not inevitable that they will decide to prosecute, they may for example be happy with your explanation and take no further action.

A more likely option is that they may offer you an out of court settlement where you pay the full cost of a First Class ticket along with a contribution towards their administration costs. If this is something you want to happen there is no harm in indicating in your letter that you would be willing to make such a payment.

In the unlikely event that it went to court it would be likely that you would be prosecuted for failing to produce a valid ticket when requested to do so an offence that does not carry a criminal record. There is a more serious offence of intentional fare evasion that does, however based on your version of events it would be unlikely that there is evidence to support conviction for this offence.

The issue with the other travelers ticket is completely irrelevant as it has no bearing on your own guilt or innocence. I urge you not to try to bring it up as it will only muddy the issue and reduce your chances of getting a positive outcome.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I do not agree. While it may not be relevant to the question of failing to display a valid ticket, it is relevant to the question of intent required for the more serious offence.

It may also influence what measures the Train Company decide take on the matter.

Thanks for the advice michael769. I'd love to say I feel better now, and I understand why they have to have measures in place to stop genuine fare dodgers, but the punishment, whatever the outcome now turns out to be, just feels totally disproportionate for a long serving/paying customer who made a silly mistake (first time ever).

I'm sure you all probably see a lot worse, I just can't help but feel a little depressed (and worried) about the whole situation.

 

[cuccir]

I agree that a succinct explanation of the events which led you to sit in first ie that you most commonly travel in trains with declassified first class areas, would be useful context as an explanation, if: shortened to a paragraph; not used as an excuse; accompanied by a sincere apology. It may encourage the train company to settle at a lower price, or even (though unlikely) to not pursue the case.

A few more comments:

• It's likely to be several weeks (and up to a few months) before you receive any correspondance with regards to this issue. We generally advise against pre-empting the letter by contacting in advance, though it does sometimes resolve the issue
• In your response to the letter that you receive from I'd mention a willingness to pay any costs incurred by the train company to date in pursuing this case, as well as the first class Anytime Single fare for the journey that you made with them (that's a £15.10 single from Liverpool Street-Broxbourne). Don't mention any specific figure though.
• I repeat the advice to ignore the situation with the other passenger. It doesn't affect your case.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I live in Hertford and commute regularly to Liverpool St. from Hertford East station. I have been travelling via this route for the last 2 years, and frequently buy weekly season tickets (I work from home for a week every so often, so weekly is the cheapest option for me) using my photo travelcard. On this particular route, since the beginning of 2013, Greater Anglia do not make a distinction between standard class and First class, so for this reason I go straight to first class seating on every single journey, outbound and return.

This is interesting. If you look here: departures from Hertford East to Liverpool Steet and here: departures from Liverpool Street to Hertford East, you can see that it is only morning peak departures towards London and evening peak departures from London that have declassified first class (indicated by the lack of a little '1' symbol against the train).

At other times of the day, or when travelling in the opposite direction, first class is still advertised as normal - so you do need to be careful when travelling at different times of the day, even if it's not a Cambridge train. In particular, the 1612 and earlier from Liverpool Street to Hertford East all have normal first class advertised.

 

[Shawthing]

This is interesting. If you look here: departures from Hertford East to Liverpool Steet and here: departures from Liverpool Street to Hertford East, you can see that it is only morning peak departures towards London and evening peak departures from London that have declassified first class (indicated by the lack of a little '1' symbol against the train).

At other times of the day, or when travelling in the opposite direction, first class is still advertised as normal - so you do need to be careful when travelling at different times of the day, even if it's not a Cambridge train. In particular, the 1612 and earlier from Liverpool Street to Hertford East all have normal first class advertised.

Hi Indigo2, thanks for responding. The interesting this is, at Hertford East station there was (I can't confirm at the moment if it is still there) a big sign saying no first class on ALL services from Hertford East to Liverpool street, and vice versa. It didn't mention anything about peak times, I made a point of reading it very carefully before using the first class carriage!

 

[CyrusWuff]

At other times of the day, or when travelling in the opposite direction, first class is still advertised as normal - so you do need to be careful when travelling at different times of the day, even if it's not a Cambridge train. In particular, the 1612 and earlier from Liverpool Street to Hertford East all have normal first class advertised.

Looking at Table 22 in the eNRT, the only Hertford services that aren't advertised as conveying First Class accommodation Monday to Friday are the 0742, 1112, 1442, 1641, 1711, 1741, 1811, 1841 and 1856 from Liverpool Street; and the 0627, 0657, 0727, 0757, 0839, 1209 and 1539 from Hertford East. All trains on Saturdays and none on Sundays are advertised as conveying First Class.

 

[Be3G]

This is interesting. If you look here: departures from Hertford East to Liverpool Steet and here: departures from Liverpool Street to Hertford East, you can see that it is only morning peak departures towards London and evening peak departures from London that have declassified first class (indicated by the lack of a little '1' symbol against the train).

At other times of the day, or when travelling in the opposite direction, first class is still advertised as normal - so you do need to be careful when travelling at different times of the day, even if it's not a Cambridge train. In particular, the 1612 and earlier from Liverpool Street to Hertford East all have normal first class advertised.

Hi Indigo2, thanks for responding. The interesting this is, at Hertford East station there was (I can't confirm at the moment if it is still there) a big sign saying no first class on ALL services from Hertford East to Liverpool street, and vice versa. It didn't mention anything about peak times, I made a point of reading it very carefully before using the first class carriage!

Just to muddy the waters further, this page on Greater Anglia's website says ‘First Class accommodation is not provided on the London suburban lines to Enfield Town, Cheshunt, Chingford, Hertford East, Gidea Park and Shenfield’. Which would tally with what you've seen on a poster, shawthing.

In fact, taking that wording literally, I would say that it's telling people there is no first class available on any train between London and Cheshunt (because of the use of the word ‘lines’), despite the fact that that's not even possible to demonstrate on timetables, as it'd mean that the first class area of Cambridge trains would be declassified for part of the journey!

GA really have made a mess of the first class situation in London's suburbia. :roll:

 

[Shawthing]

Just to muddy the waters further, this page on Greater Anglia's website says ‘First Class accommodation is not provided on the London suburban lines to Enfield Town, Cheshunt, Chingford, Hertford East, Gidea Park and Shenfield’. Which would tally with what you've seen on a poster, shawthing.

In fact, taking that wording literally, I would say that it's telling people there is no first class available on any train between London and Cheshunt (because of the use of the word ‘lines’), despite the fact that that's not even possible to demonstrate on timetables, as it'd mean that the first class area of Cambridge trains would be declassified for part of the journey!

GA really have made a mess of the first class situation in London's suburbia. :roll:

Yes, I made sure I read and understood the notice properly before using the 'first class' areas on these services. There was no ambiguity whatsoever, it clearly stated no first class on all services running between Hertford East and Liverpool St.

I'm not going to pretend I thought the service to Cambridge was the same as I was only using it as part of my journey to HE (I'm not THAT ignorant), I just genuinely wasn't thinking about it when I got on. My mind was elsewhere and I went into auto-pilot and did the same thing I do for every journey to/from home.

I admit my mistake and would reluctantly accept a penalty fine (*see comment below), but the punishment for this will be totally disproportionate for the 'crime'.

*I just think inspectors could use better judgement for individual cases. I presented a season ticket for Hertford East and my bum had been on the seat for a matter of seconds. In the circumstances would it not have been acceptable to issue a warning (or even a penalty fine) and move me to standard? I certainly would not have made the same mistake again.

I'm not having a go at inspectors, but in instances like this, where there is compelling evidence that it was a genuine error, I'm sure with their experience they can tell me apart from genuine fare dodgers (like the dodger who he actually gave the ticket back to). I totally believe in throwing the book at people who seriously abuse the system, but I could not live with myself if I was putting people through the courts, and having this much of a negative impact on their lives, for something like this.

As someone who has poured thousands of pounds into Greater Anglia over the years (and has a paper trail to prove it), I feel thoroughly disappointed. No other industry would treat loyal customers in this way.

Sorry, rant over!

P.S. This isn't an exercise in bashing rail staff, I have had many positive experiences with very helpful GA staff over the years, and wouldn't have said a bad word until now.

 

[Shawthing]

Update: I have just called the prosecution team.

They were very pleasant but unfortunately couldn't comment on my individual case, as the paperwork hadn't come through from the inspector yet.

However, I was told that I MAY be able to settle by paying the price of the fair and admin costs, but that obviously depends on them seeing the paperwork. If they decide to prosecute, then it WILL result in a criminal record!

I have never stepped outside the law in my life, now I could end up with a criminal record over this.

I fee very sad.

 

[jb]

However, I was told that I MAY be able to settle by paying the price of the fair and admin costs, but that obviously depends on them seeing the paperwork. If they decide to prosecute, then it WILL result in a criminal record!

With regard to the bolded bit in particular, you have misunderstood or been misinformed. There are two types of railway ticketing offence which are prosecuted. The much more common and less serious type (a Byelaw prosecution) is not recordable. The more serious type of offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 would result in a criminal record if prosecuted, but (simply put) relates to intentional fare evasion, and as such requires a much higher standard of proof than a Byelaw prosecution.

Whilst, if it comes to it, you should seek legal advice than listen to anyone on here (myself most definitely included), on the evidence of what you have told us so far, a RoRA prosecution is a remote prospect for the train operator and it is likely that if they elect to prosecute at all it would be under the Byelaws. Note that you will not know for some time yet which, if any, type of prosecution they will pursue.

But it may well not come to that. These sorts of cases are regularly settled before court. All you can do now is sit tight and be sure of your account of the chain of events for when the letter arrives. And as regards something earlier...

Out of curiosity, if none of the mitigating circumstances are relevant, what will I be relying on to settle this?

The assumption behind what I said earlier was that any eventual prosecution would be of the Byelaw sort, where the simple fact that you were found in First Class without a ticket is, more or less, the beginning and end of it.

 

[Greenback]

I would not rely on what you wer etold in the telephone call, particularly as whoever you spoke to did not have sight of the paperwork on the incident.

If they decided to prosecute, ther eis no guarantee that you willget a criminal record. It depends on the legislation under which you are being prosecuted, and then you obviously have to be found guilty as well. (Not that I am declaring any opinion on the likelihood of that.)

With regard to the actions of the staff, it would not be practical to merely issue a warning to everyone who sat in First Class. Nobody would pay any FC fares if there was the option to just pay when challenged.

 

[cuccir]

While I sympathise, you've also got to realise that many 'full-time' fare evaders will, if caught, have stories that aim to present themselves as passengers who have made innocent mistakes. You're asking inspectors to be mind-readers OR to let everyone off who gives them a story. It's not possible.

I wouldn't be so disheartened though. The most likely outcome is that they will accept an offer of the fare for the journey and administrative costs. It's an expensive mistake, but that's all that is. The second most likely outcome is an attempt to prosecute under railway Byelaws. If convicted, that would result in a fine (larger than any settlement) but proportional to your income. Still no criminal record. Based on the story you've told us, a prosecution under the Regulation of the Railway Act is the least likely outcome in this case. In other words, the most likely outcome is that this will cost you money - frustrating, I agree, but not damaging to your life.

--
Edit - Settling
With regards to settling, the reason that this is likely is that it is cheaper for the prosecuting train company. They can avoid the costs of going to court, while also guaranteeing themselves a victory - there's always a chance that they might lose any case. The plus-side for you is that the amount you'd be offered to settle would be lower than any court-imposed fine.

 

[yorkie]

Just to muddy the waters further, this page on Greater Anglia's website says ‘First Class accommodation is not provided on the London suburban lines to Enfield Town, Cheshunt, Chingford, Hertford East, Gidea Park and Shenfield’. Which would tally with what you've seen on a poster, shawthing.

In fact, taking that wording literally, I would say that it's telling people there is no first class available on any train between London and Cheshunt (because of the use of the word ‘lines’), despite the fact that that's not even possible to demonstrate on timetables, as it'd mean that the first class area of Cambridge trains would be declassified for part of the journey!

GA really have made a mess of the first class situation in London's suburbia. :roll:

Agreed.

I am not a legal expert, but I do wonder if a good solicitor would be able to get this case thrown out on that basis.

However the problem is that such a defence won't come cheap, so it may be better to settle out of Court.

On the other hand, if Greater Anglia thought that someone was going to robustly defend themselves, they may be keen to avoid a court case that they are in danger of losing. But that's a gamble that I am not sure is worth taking.

Greater Anglia get up to all sorts of dirty tricks when it comes to declassified 1st class (or 1st class that is purported, in some publications, to be declassified) and I'd love to see them defeated in Court, but I don't think I could recommend that action, as success is not guaranteed by any means - the TOCs hold all the cards and have a lot of power.

 

[Shawthing]

Well, a big thanks to everyone who has given their input. I guess the only thing I can do is see how it plays out and hope for the best.

For the benefit of others who may be in a similar situation in the future, I will update this thread as and when the situation progresses.

Thanks again to everyone, and if anyone else has any experience or advice I would love to hear from you!

 

[jon0844]

GA has apparently (according to another thread on here) been clamping down on people travelling in first class, so you may well have done worse because of this.

I sympathise given the fact you're used to using first class when it's declassified (it's worrying that GA seems unclear on when that is, as you could have found yourself in trouble on other trains too) and this needs to be your defence.

If you explain things clearly and politely, making it clear that you've become used to a 'perk' you enjoy on the trains you normally take, and simply went into autopilot mode, then they might show some leniency.

I'd point how long you've been travelling and buying season tickets (maybe send a photo of them all if you still have old ones - which will all show the same photocard ID so can actually be proven to be yours unlike other tickets) to show just how long you've been doing so. I wouldn't see any need to state exactly which services, just in case they might argue not all of them are declassified.

I will add that when I had a problem with GA - namely being overcharged for having to travel a longer route during engineering work - they initially refused and told me that I had voluntarily chosen to travel. When I wrote back to point out that this was not my problem and I'd refer this to London TravelWatch, they suddenly investigated further and gave me rail vouchers immediately!

So, you might need to see what they say first of all and then try again if you're palmed off.

I'd also say that if they ask for an out of court settlement and haven't shown any leniency by this point - I'd pay and then keep trying.

Yes, it was your fault but at the very least they should have considered giving a penalty fare (as they can) when you explained your situation to them.

RPIs do have discretion and assuming you weren't rude and failed the 'attitude test' then perhaps the officer involved was a bit blinkered on the basis that the majority of people caught will be trying it on.

Anyway, I wish you luck.

 

[Shawthing]

Hi All,

I thought I would post an update, maybe it'll help someone else who finds themselves in a similar predicament in the future.

Having called the prosecution team a couple of weeks ago, I have now received a call back. I have to admit I was surprised by how helpful the guy who called me back was. He said he had reviewed the notes from the warrant officer and had come to a decision, but asked me for my version of events. After I had explained what happened, he said there was absolutely no reason why he would even consider taking it any further. Reading between the lines, I got the impression he was surprised this had even made it on to his desk in the first place.

He (almost apologetically) explained that unfortunately there were some costs that need to be covered, and said it was up to me whether or not I wanted to just pay the costs to get it over with.

As the costs at that point were just south of £70 (which was far less than I had expected), I decided to just pay and move on.

I'm glad this is all over, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by the people I dealt with in the prosecution team, who were nothing but friendly and helpful, but I still can't help but have a slightly bitter taste in my mouth about the fact that it even went this far.

Anyway, thanks to everyone on here for your advice, hopefully I won't be needing it again

 

[bb21]

Thanks for updating us. I am glad that it will not be taken further.