Mainland Italy to Sicily

[D6130]

I thought they were proposing EMUs from 2027? Why go to this effort before then?

It may be to avoid soaring fuel costs for the diesel locos....although they'll still have to cart large quantities of fuel down to Calabria for the Reggio-Taranto InterCity locos; not to mention the local light shunting fleet and diesel railcars.

The ferries have four tracks - each of which can accommodate four coaches. The daytime trains have eight coaches - four to/from Palermo and four to/from Siracusa - which are presently coupled/uncoupled at Villa San Giovanni. AFAIK, the night trains also have a similar consist. However another ferry - and possibly a second - is now under construction and will probably have a higher capacity.

 

[30907]

I thought they were proposing EMUs from 2027? Why go to this effort before then?

Because the present operation is AIUI incredibly time consuming as well as wasting resources

 

[MarcVD]

Because the present operation is AIUI incredibly time consuming as well as wasting resources

Notable because this is Italy. When I went there in 2015, the operation was like 1 person working and 5 others just looking around.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Aren't the new EMUs, capable of running on the high-speed lines up north, destined for the night trains?

 

[D6130]

Notable because this is Italy. When I went there in 2015, the operation was like 1 person working and 5 others just looking around.

It only takes one person to shunt the stock, couple and uncouple the loco and match wagons and talk the driver back by radio. The other guys, who are ferry crew, wait on the train/car deck and attach/detach the safety chains once the carriages have been positioned or are ready to leave the ship.

 

[30907]

They are....but will one or two electric locos also fit on the ferries?

Drehscheibe-online reports today that the first successful tests of loco +4 including driving trailer have taken place - link to the Italian source.
https://www.ferroviesiciliane.it/20...-nave-traghetto-con-la-locomotiva-a-batterie/

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Drehscheibe-online reports today that the first successful tests of loco +4 including driving trailer have taken place - link to the Italian source.
https://www.ferroviesiciliane.it/20...-nave-traghetto-con-la-locomotiva-a-batterie/

Interesting video on that link - and the Train Ferry 'Scilla' is one which conveyed our train across the strait back in 1997.

 

[30907]

Mods, this picks up on the closed thread Mainland Italy to Sicily.

I travelled Rome to Messina on Monday, so briefly:
The train was formed E464-2x4TC*-E464, which conveniently distributes the load on the ferry.
At Villa SG the shunt was managed by a centre cab diesel, 2xflat wagons and a driving trailer "wrong way round" presumably for staff and/or compatibility. I presume the Messina shunt was similar but it was dark and rainy. Obviously the bimode E464 isn't yet operative (or agreement hasn't been reached).

I'll give an update on the way back which will be in daylight! On board photo attached.

* obviously not! Driving trailer second, second, second (2+1) with vending machines (not a trolley) and train manager compartment, first. No sign of vendors at or after Naples BTW.

 

[AdamWW]

Mods, this picks up on the closed thread Mainland Italy to Sicily.

I travelled Rome to Messina on Monday, so briefly:
The train was formed E464-2x4TC*-E464, which conveniently distributes the load on the ferry.
At Villa SG the shunt was managed by a centre cab diesel, 2xflat wagons and a driving trailer "wrong way round" presumably for staff and/or compatibility. I presume the Messina shunt was similar but it was dark and rainy. Obviously the bimode E464 isn't yet operative (or agreement hasn't been reached).

Or they don't have enough of them yet?

I'm curious what the need for match wagons is if the ferry and linkspan can take the weight of the locomotives.

 

[30907]

Or they don't have enough of them yet?

I'm curious what the need for match wagons is if the ferry and linkspan can take the weight of the locomotives.

I'll check on the way back, but my guess is that shunter and E464 together on the linkspan is the issue. And if I am right about weight distribution on the ferry, you can't avoid it.

 

[AdamWW]

I'll check on the way back, but my guess is that shunter and E464 together on the linkspan is the issue. And if I am right about weight distribution on the ferry, you can't avoid it.

Makes sense. It all sounds interesting.

I'm hoping to travel on the train ferry soon.

How easily can you see what's shunting the train when you're inside it? Presumably these days the coaches don't have handy opening windows.

(When I used the Berlin Night Express a few years back it was great because you could just stick your head out. They didn't need to use match trucks, but then only the coaches made it onto the ferry).

 

[superalbs]

Makes sense. It all sounds interesting.

I'm hoping to travel on the train ferry soon.

How easily can you see what's shunting the train when you're inside it? Presumably these days the coaches don't have handy opening windows.

(When I used the Berlin Night Express a few years back it was great because you could just stick your head out. They didn't need to use match trucks, but then only the coaches made it onto the ferry).

It's doable, but depends on where on the train you are.

If your section is one of the longer ones, then you can simply go to the back of it and look out. Or if you are the last section to board the ferry (on the front of the train southbound to Villa SG, not sure in the other direction), then you can also just look out the back.

If you're after numbers, the new shunting locos have them easily visible on each end and the side. The older orange locos are only on the sides, so I ended up running up to the front after arrival at Messina Centrale.

It's not the easiest, so just be careful not to miss the train, haha. Still, I managed to identify all seven locos used on my train the other day.

 

[AdamWW]

It's doable, but depends on where on the train you are.

If your section is one of the longer ones, then you can simply go to the back of it and look out. Or if you are the last section to board the ferry (on the front of the train southbound to Villa SG, not sure in the other direction), then you can also just look out the back.

If you're after numbers, the new shunting locos have them easily visible on each end and the side. The older orange locos are only on the sides, so I ended up running up to the front after arrival at Messina Centrale.

It's not the easiest, so just be careful not to miss the train, haha. Still, I managed to identify all seven locos used on my train the other day.

Thanks.

I'm not concerned about numbers, but I'd like to see what's going on.

I must be visualising this wrongly though, because I thought each section would have a locomotive at one end and a DVT at the other, so no "back" to look out of.

And...seven locos?

 

[superalbs]

Oh, I did the sleeper. It does the crossing around late morning depending on punctuality.

You can still look out of the back external carriage door, as they are opened once on the ferry.

 

[rvdborgt]

Oh, I did the sleeper. It does the crossing around late morning depending on punctuality.

There are 3 sleepers to Sicily, of which at least one makes the crossing at a time I really want to sleep...

 

[superalbs]

There are 3 sleepers to Sicily, of which at least one makes the crossing at a time I really want to sleep...

I was on the Milan southbound.

 

[AdamWW]

Oh, I did the sleeper. It does the crossing around late morning depending on punctuality.

You can still look out of the back external carriage door, as they are opened once on the ferry.

Thanks.

There are 3 sleepers to Sicily, of which at least one makes the crossing at a time I really want to sleep...

I've read that you aren't allowed to remain on the train while on the ferry. I hope that doesn't apply to sleepers at unsociable hours.

 

[Iskra]

Thanks.



I've read that you aren't allowed to remain on the train while on the ferry. I hope that doesn't apply to sleepers at unsociable hours.

You can definitely remain on the train, but it isn’t wise to do so in summer as the aircon gets turned off so it becomes sweltering. Personally, I like to go up on deck to enjoy the crossing and I don’t think it’s a good idea to stay in the carriage as in the unlikely event that something did go wrong on the short crossing, your chances of getting out would be much worse.

 

[superalbs]

If you do leave the train, make sure you keep all your valuables to hand, as theft isn't unheard of during the crossing.

 

[AdamWW]

You can definitely remain on the train, but it isn’t wise to do so in summer as the aircon gets turned off so it becomes sweltering. Personally, I like to go up on deck to enjoy the crossing and I don’t think it’s a good idea to stay in the carriage as in the unlikely event that something did go wrong on the short crossing, your chances of getting out would be much worse.

Oh I'd certainly want to go on deck to get a view, though I wouldn't be concerned about the safety aspects of staying in the train any more than I mind spending a night in a cabin on a lower deck on a ferry.

When I did the Puttgarden-Rødby crossing a few years ago doing on deck was a welcome relief because the train was sweltering even before we got onto the ferry.

If you do leave the train, make sure you keep all your valuables to hand, as theft isn't unheard of during the crossing.

Thanks.

I'm pretty paranoid about hanging onto valuables...

(And I can see the logic on a day crossing of getting everyone out then locking the train so you can leave lugagge on board and it's less likely that someone will go rifling through it).

 

[30907]

Oh, I did the sleeper. It does the crossing around late morning depending on punctuality.

You can still look out of the back external carriage door, as they are opened once on the ferry.

The sleepers don't (yet) have driving trailers - I saw the first arrival into Palermo this morning and its 4 cars were top and tailed by E464s (curious, but presumably to avoid using a shunting loco/crew at Palermo).

 

[AdamWW]

The sleepers don't (yet) have driving trailers - I saw the first arrival into Palermo this morning and its 4 cars were top and tailed by E464s (curious, but presumably to avoid using a shunting loco/crew at Palermo).

I did wonder, as at least some of the sleepers don't seem to have seated accommodation.

 

[30907]

I did wonder, as at least some of the sleepers don't seem to have seated accommodation.

Think none of the Sicily ones now do.

 

[rvdborgt]

Think none of the Sicily ones now do.

That is correct. I suppose that's to limit train length and thus the time needed for shunting.

 

[AdamWW]

Do the trains reverse off the ferry the way they came on, or do they continue in the same direction like cars generally do on ro-ro ferries?

 

[Iskra]

Do the trains reverse off the ferry the way they came on, or do they continue in the same direction like cars generally do on ro-ro ferries?

The operation is slightly different on each side. At Messina they just roll straight on. At Villa San Giovanni, they reverse just before going onto the ferry (or after when coming off the ferry).

So they continue in the same direction in terms of the ferry operation, but there is a reversal on land at the Villa San Giovanni side to access the line to the North.

 

[superalbs]

The sleepers don't (yet) have driving trailers - I saw the first arrival into Palermo this morning and its 4 cars were top and tailed by E464s (curious, but presumably to avoid using a shunting loco/crew at Palermo).

Most are top-and-tail, but a few use a single loco.

 

[AdamWW]

The operation is slightly different on each side. At Messina they just roll straight on. At Villa San Giovanni, they reverse just before going onto the ferry (or after when coming off the ferry).

So they continue in the same direction in terms of the ferry operation, but there is a reversal on land at the Villa San Giovanni side to access the line to the North.

Thanks - yes I saw from openrailway map that they would need a reversal on land, but obviously that map doesn't tell me what happens on the ship.

Quite unusual for passenger trains to reverse anywhere except in a station, though I know there are other examples (that don't involve ferries).

 

[30907]

Most are top-and-tail, but a few use a single loco.

The evening train at Catania tonight (ICN1956) was t'n't too, haven't seen the Milan which may well be different.

Quite unusual for passenger trains to reverse anywhere except in a station, though I know there are other examples (that don't involve ferries).

The ships are single-ended, loading/offloading at the bow. There are very neat buffers at the stern, then a ramp for road traffic.

 

[AdamWW]

The evening train at Catania tonight (ICN1956) was t'n't too, haven't seen the Milan which may well be different.

The ships are single-ended, loading/offloading at the bow. There are very neat buffers at the stern, then a ramp for road traffic.

Ah so including the reversal on the mainland side, they end up pointing the same way as they were before going onto the ferry.