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Major disruption at Ayr Station due to dangerous old hotel (from August 2018)

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Bletchleyite

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They're currently clearing the old S&T site next to platform 4 to construct a semi permanent facility for traincrew.

I'd think any new build station will have to be on the current site as to move the whole lot would involve major track infrastructure work. Will be cheaper to demolish the bulk of the hotel and integrate a new modern station onto it.

I'm a bit confused by this article. Was the railway using the hotel building in some way? Or is it just that some of the station buildings are unusable due to the risk? If the latter, you don't need to build a new station, just knock the hotel down.

I guess it's perhaps listed, but isn't there an exception to that for dangerous buildings which have no hope of being saved?
 
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380101

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I'm a bit confused by this article. Was the railway using the hotel building in some way? Or is it just that some of the station buildings are unusable due to the risk? If the latter, you don't need to build a new station, just knock the hotel down.

I guess it's perhaps listed, but isn't there an exception to that for dangerous buildings which have no hope of being saved?

The whole of the ground floor of one wing of the building was the railway station, which included the booking office, toilets, Network Rail offices, staff booking on points, managers offices and traincrew bothy. The passenger concourse/waiting area is also a material part of the building. It was afterall the "Station Hotel" built by the GSWR.
 

sannox

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Ayr also has an issue that whilst all platforms are accessible, changing from 1-2-3 to 4 is hard (if you can't use the steps) and involves using the A70 road bridge. It's quite a lengthy change- would take about 5 mins.

Platform 4 also seems to be used more now than previously.
 

hexagon789

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Resurrecting this old thread - there's some potentially positive news on Ayr station, albeit, the future seems a bit less uncertain for the former hotel…

Courtesy of STV News:

Perhaps something along the lines of the new station buikdings they constructed at Gourock a few years back?
 

380101

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Ayr also has an issue that whilst all platforms are accessible, changing from 1-2-3 to 4 is hard (if you can't use the steps) and involves using the A70 road bridge. It's quite a lengthy change- would take about 5 mins.

Platform 4 also seems to be used more now than previously.

They have to use platform 4 more now as the frequency of services is alot more now than even 5 years ago. But time for change and a modern build including lifts between 3 and 4 is urgently needed.
 

MarkyT

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Perhaps something along the lines of the new station buikdings they constructed at Gourock a few years back?
That's a nice functional station building and they managed to save some of the original canopy around the bufferstops. Don't know if that would be possible at Ayr though if it's supported by the building. IANAL, but one problem may be that even if the council and NR demolish or otherwise make safe such a building and chase the owner for costs, there's a risk the owner may then counter-sue over the legality of such a decision and for destroying their investment/property. I suspect it might drag on for years with unknown liabilities on both sides. Shows the utter boneheaded stupidity of disposing of the freehold of buildings so close to and operationally entangled with the working railway. That's Tories for you.
 

hexagon789

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That's a nice functional station building and they managed to save some of the original canopy around the bufferstops. Don't know if that would be possible at Ayr though if it's supported by the building.

If it was possible, I think it would work quite nicely.
 

Bletchleyite

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The whole of the ground floor of one wing of the building was the railway station, which included the booking office, toilets, Network Rail offices, staff booking on points, managers offices and traincrew bothy. The passenger concourse/waiting area is also a material part of the building. It was afterall the "Station Hotel" built by the GSWR.

Ah, I see. Thanks.
 

d9009alycidon

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I find the news report to be typically misleading. The headline proclaims that a new station will to be built in Ayr, but the content of the story says nothing about definite plans and timescales for how this is going to be achieved, until the structural report on the old hotel is published nothing will be done, then there will be months of wrangling before any way forward is agreed. Sorry but I find this a total non-story
 

Ambient Sheep

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I just hope that any new or (preferably) restored facility has a waiting area for those taking the Sailrail coach to Cairnryan.

I did it twice, a few years ago, both times in summer, and being one of forty-odd people sitting on the lawn outside the hotel for 45 minutes wasn't too bad, if a bit boring, but it would have been grim in winter or a summer storm.

Was rather surprised when I first arrived at Ayr that there were no facilities at all, not even a "Cairnryan shuttle passengers wait here" sign.
 

MarkyT

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I find the news report to be typically misleading. The headline proclaims that a new station will to be built in Ayr, but the content of the story says nothing about definite plans and timescales for how this is going to be achieved, until the structural report on the old hotel is published nothing will be done, then there will be months of wrangling before any way forward is agreed. Sorry but I find this a total non-story
Exactly. The legal position is probably very delicate and the potential liabilities huge on both sides. Even if a completely new stations site was chosen, the fate of the old buildings would still have to be decided to make the railway safe. I suspect the only real winners in any of this will be the lawyers.
 

MarkyT

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I just hope that any new or (preferably) restored facility has a waiting area for those taking the Sailrail coach to Cairnryan.

I did it twice, a few years ago, both times in summer, and being one of forty-odd people sitting on the lawn outside the hotel for 45 minutes wasn't too bad, if a bit boring, but it would have been grim in winter or a summer storm.

Was rather surprised when I first arrived at Ayr that there were no facilities at all, not even a "Cairnryan shuttle passengers wait here" sign.

I guess that collateral crumbling edge of quality is par for the course with such planning blight. No one is going to spend a penny on any existing facilities when the future is so uncertain.
 

route:oxford

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Shows the utter boneheaded stupidity of disposing of the freehold of buildings so close to and operationally entangled with the working railway. That's Tories for you.

It was sold off in 1951. Barely 3 years after nationalisation.
 

MarkyT

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Indeed it will, it's a lovely building inside and out; sadly I think we need to prepare for the worst here, I got the impression some months back that demolition was by far the most likely course of action.
We're facing the same sort of thing with large Victorian hotels in Torbay. There is money about in hospitality from far eastern investors but they invariably want to demolish completely and rebuild. Our previous Tory local authority had an automatic rubber stamp approach to any planning application involving such demolition, regardless of public opinion (or indeed planning law in some cases!), which must have at least had some bearing on their loss of control in the recent local elections to a lib dem/independent coalition after some particularly contentious proposals. I think people have to take a pragmatic middle way approach. Not every Victorian building can be saved, but the best examples NEED to be, to avoid everywhere starting to look the same and to ensure a healthy eclectic and evolving mix is maintained.

The Ayr Station Hotel is a particularly impressive building although not in any way exceptional or unique. The basic structure looks solid, and is, as far as I can tell, all in the same style without the piecemeal and often poor quality extensions of various ages and styles that plague many of Torbay's older hotels, but while I hope the building can survive in some guise, the proximity to the railway really means a viable solution needs to be found quickly, regardless of architectural merit. Demolition and provision of new workable modern station facilities may be the best option for rail users and the town in general.
 

hexagon789

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Demolition and provision of new workable modern station facilities may be the best option for rail users and the town in general.

It very likely is and indeed it is the railway and town that are more important than any one building.
 

mcmad

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Indeed it will, it's a lovely building inside and out; sadly I think we need to prepare for the worst here, I got the impression some months back that demolition was by far the most likely course of action.
I think the main problem is that your initial statement needs to be in the past rather than present tense.

The lack of any maintenance and Scottish weather have taken their toll both on the exterior and particularly interior such that saving even the externals would involve significant investment and disruption.

The 'announcement' that kicked this thread back into life however has no substance or money behind it, just more empty promises from the Scottish Government like the rolling electrification program.
 

MarkyT

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It was sold off in 1951. Barely 3 years after nationalisation.
But, interestingly, the same year the Tories returned to power after the immediate post-war Labour government. I still stand by my comment about the foolishness of selling the freehold, or even very long leases with ongoing responsibility for the fabric, of significant buildings so close to the railway, whoever was in charge when the decision was made. I accept there are many cases where urban buildings encroach that have never been railway property, but in the case of Ayr, where station and other railway facilities were even retained within what was once a wholly railway owned building, I think mistakes were made in the terms if the current rail authority cannot take any realistic concrete action because of the absentee owner/leaseholder.
 

beverleyonian

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But, interestingly, the same year the Tories returned to power after the immediate post-war Labour government.

But probably not relevant because the 1951 General Election was on 25th October 1951 and the hotel was sold the same month.
 

hexagon789

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I think the main problem is that your initial statement needs to be in the past rather than present tense.

That's sadly correct, I must admit.

It was a lovely building.

The lack of any maintenance and Scottish weather have taken their toll both on the exterior and particularly interior such that saving even the externals would involve significant investment and disruption.

The 'announcement' that kicked this thread back into life however has no substance or money behind it, just more empty promises from the Scottish Government like the rolling electrification program.

Quite, but it would still be nice to see something come out of this at least and an upgraded Ayr station wouldn't be a bad result.
 

och aye

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I wonder if some of the building could be saved and incorporated into a new station building?
 

route:oxford

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I wonder if some of the building could be saved and incorporated into a new station building?

Grab some of the better stone work, re-dress it and use it for some decorative facing of new buildings or car park walling?

Scotland is absolutely full of uncared for town and city centre buildings that, if they aren't in a dangerous state today, will be tomorrow. There isn't the money to save a fraction of them.

Here's one I saw in Perth last week (the trees have grown considerably since last year):-

https://goo.gl/maps/yVvjHZJcqgpJxNXM7

Crieff:-

https://goo.gl/maps/vkJkPmCNRufLaH2S7

Stirling

https://goo.gl/maps/zTZakuA1VD8msyzN8
https://goo.gl/maps/v7SwDfniFkRDwK4L9

Take a look around you on Scottish High Streets, it's utterly terrifying.

The best thing that can be done in Ayr is a swift CPO, the value must be close to a peppercorn, and comprehensive demolition. Then build a brand new "landmark" railway station that makes best use of the land.

Would it be helpful if there were 4 through platforms?
 

DPWH

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I wonder if some of the building could be saved and incorporated into a new station building?

I would imagine that reducing the building in height to a single storey and putting a new roof on top of it would be possible. There must be very strong foundations, and it could be done somewhat sympathetically. There might be legal problems with this though unrelated to its technical feasibility.
 

hwl

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The BTC had put all the hotel assets in to a separate division and had decided that it was going to divest all the hotels as most were losing money. They didn't particularity look at the practicalities.
 

BRX

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I would imagine that reducing the building in height to a single storey and putting a new roof on top of it would be possible. There must be very strong foundations, and it could be done somewhat sympathetically. There might be legal problems with this though unrelated to its technical feasibility.
That would be in no way "sympathetic" to the building. There would be no point in doing this whatsoever. It would cost more than demolishing it altogether.
 

d9009alycidon

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This page https://www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/station-building/ gives a pretty comprehensive statement of the current situation. Sadly the best we can hope for is that the report says that the building is in such a dangerous condition that it cannot be stabilised without a disproportionate amount of money being spent, this (I think) would be the trigger for a compulsory purchase order and remove the current owner from the equation, The Malaysian owner, Mr Ung seems to have an entrenched position regarding the building and until he comes round to the idea that he is not going to see any return on his investment then very little is going to happen.
 

Crossover

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Grab some of the better stone work, re-dress it and use it for some decorative facing of new buildings or car park walling?

Scotland is absolutely full of uncared for town and city centre buildings that, if they aren't in a dangerous state today, will be tomorrow. There isn't the money to save a fraction of them.

Here's one I saw in Perth last week (the trees have grown considerably since last year):-

https://goo.gl/maps/yVvjHZJcqgpJxNXM7

Crieff:-

https://goo.gl/maps/vkJkPmCNRufLaH2S7

Stirling

https://goo.gl/maps/zTZakuA1VD8msyzN8
https://goo.gl/maps/v7SwDfniFkRDwK4L9

Take a look around you on Scottish High Streets, it's utterly terrifying.

The best thing that can be done in Ayr is a swift CPO, the value must be close to a peppercorn, and comprehensive demolition. Then build a brand new "landmark" railway station that makes best use of the land.

Would it be helpful if there were 4 through platforms?

I'm reminded of one of the delipidated buildings in a town not too far from where I am
https://goo.gl/maps/YcKWvPjWVWsQzix77

Looking back on Streetview, it has had scaffolding since 2012 at least (though the shop was still open in there at the time, I believe it ended up closing due to the unstable nature of the building) and there are recent reports that windows have been falling out of it within the last few weeks.

Eventually the outcome can be catastrophic collapse - the building here: https://goo.gl/maps/dEabHxU4S1D9fmGH7 now looks like this: https://goo.gl/maps/8KrsKffVvpArVKw97 after it collapsed under a fairly light dusting of snow a couple of years ago (concerningly only about 30 minutes before I would have driven past it :o)
 

380101

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Grab some of the better stone work, re-dress it and use it for some decorative facing of new buildings or car park walling?

Scotland is absolutely full of uncared for town and city centre buildings that, if they aren't in a dangerous state today, will be tomorrow. There isn't the money to save a fraction of them.

Here's one I saw in Perth last week (the trees have grown considerably since last year):-

https://goo.gl/maps/yVvjHZJcqgpJxNXM7

Crieff:-

https://goo.gl/maps/vkJkPmCNRufLaH2S7

Stirling

https://goo.gl/maps/zTZakuA1VD8msyzN8
https://goo.gl/maps/v7SwDfniFkRDwK4L9

Take a look around you on Scottish High Streets, it's utterly terrifying.

The best thing that can be done in Ayr is a swift CPO, the value must be close to a peppercorn, and comprehensive demolition. Then build a brand new "landmark" railway station that makes best use of the land.

Would it be helpful if there were 4 through platforms?

You couldn't have 4 through platforms due to the layout on the other side - a dual carriageway, fuel station, retail units and the carriage cleaning sidings and yard at Ayr Townhead. You could however lengthen plafroms 1 and 2 to accomodate 7 car units.
 
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