Major Signalling Loss at Sheffield (10/02/2024)

[Banham7]

It has been reported this morning there has been a total loss of signalling east of Sheffield station in the Nunnery Mainline Jn area. They have stated that it should be fixed by 12:00, however lots of disruption and cancellations on Northern, TPE and CrossCountry through Sheffield this morning already.

Due to a fault with the signalling system between Sheffield and Meadowhall all lines are blocked.
Impact
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed. Disruption is expected until 12:00 10/02.
Customer Advice
Due to a total loss of signalling between Sheffield and Meadowhall, trains are currently unable to run.

Replacement transport has been requested to run between Sheffield and Doncaster. Please see station staff for further information.

TransPennine Express tickets will be accepted on board Northern services between Doncaster and Manchester Piccadilly, in both directions.

TransPennine Express tickets will be accepted on board East Midland Railway services between Sheffield and Manchester Piccadilly, in both directions.

Please see station staff for further information.

To find out more information about the reason for this disruption please visit
www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/looking-after-the-railway/delays-explained

TransPennine Express JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

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www.journeycheck.com

 

[M60lad]

According to Cross Country Journey Check their saying its due to a theft of signalling cables, not to sure how true this is though.

 

[parkender102]

My son heading Leeds to Exeter St Davids this morning was told Cable Theft by staff at Leeds. Told to go Leeds - Manchester - Birmingham - Exeter as they will accept tickets. Every time he does this trip there is a drama - cancelled trains constantly. I suppose Cable Theft isn't their fault but surely everything is covered by CCTV nowadays?

 

[The Planner]

My son heading Leeds to Exeter St Davids this morning was told Cable Theft by staff at Leeds. Told to go Leeds - Manchester - Birmingham - Exeter as they will accept tickets. Every time he does this trip there is a drama - cancelled trains constantly. I suppose Cable Theft isn't their fault but surely everything is covered by CCTV nowadays?

That would be an awful lot of CCTV.....

 

[dk1]

surely everything is covered by CCTV nowadays?

Just think about what you are saying there

 

[parkender102]

That would be an awful lot of CCTV.....

I worked on the Trans Anatolian Pipeline from Azerbaijan to Greece - over 1800km - CCTV covered the majority of the whole length. The same job there was a Fibre Optic network of Cables on all the major Compressor Stations, Metering Stations, Block Valve Stations. The system could detect any movement and identify whether movement was an animal or person digging or walking, climbing a fence or if it was a vehicle. I'm sure the railway can do this with CCTV Cameras so cheap nowadays - the whole network doesn't need to be covered - just anywhere easily accessible by vehicles.

 

[Iskra]

CCTV also doesn't stop crime, it just records it and is also less effective at doing that at night.

I think I'll be driving up to the football today then.

 

[CarrotPie]

I worked on the Trans Anatolian Pipeline from Azerbaijan to Greece - over 1800km - CCTV covered the majority of the whole length. The same job there was a Fibre Optic network of Cables on all the major Compressor Stations, Metering Stations, Block Valve Stations. The system could detect any movement and identify whether movement was an animal or person digging or walking, climbing a fence or if it was a vehicle. I'm sure the railway can do this with CCTV Cameras so cheap nowadays - the whole network doesn't need to be covered - just anywhere easily accessible by vehicles.

Is "the whole railway network" worth that much CCTV though? Somebody's got to pay for it, and I doubt it'd be cheaper than just replacing the cables...

 

[dk1]

Is "the whole railway network" worth that much CCTV though? Somebody's got to pay for it, and I doubt it'd be cheaper than just replacibg the cables...

And who’s going to monitor & repair it as necessary?

 

[CheekyBandit]

That would be an awful lot of CCTV.....

Doubt it - Quite a few years ago I tried to report a trespass incident in the Nunnery Mainline Jn area (I witnessed it from a car park overlooking the line there) to the BTP (using the rail specific location and city). After getting through on the national number I got told by the person on the phone that they had know idea where place was - I had previously tried the local BTP office but got no answer. The culprits stuck two fingers at me after when leaving the site.

 

[dk1]

Doubt it - Quite a few years ago I tried to report a trespass incident in the Nunnery Mainline Jn area (I witnessed it from a car park overlooking the line there) to the BTP (using the rail specific location and city). After getting through on the national number I got told by the person on the phone that they had know idea where place was - I had previously tried the local BTP office but got no answer. The culprits stuck two fingers at me after when leaving the site.

That wasn’t very nice of them. Obviously brought up with no manners.

 

[Killingworth]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

 

[Iskra]

Doubt it - Quite a few years ago I tried to report a trespass incident in the Nunnery Mainline Jn area (I witnessed it from a car park overlooking the line there) to the BTP (using the rail specific location and city). After getting through on the national number I got told by the person on the phone that they had know idea where place was - I had previously tried the local BTP office but got no answer. The culprits stuck two fingers at me after when leaving the site.

Conversely, I have reported a crime to BTP in the Sheffield area on their text number, and got an instant (well, as soon as it was physically possible) response to the train involved. There aren't that many BTP and there is a lot of railway.

- - - - -

I'm not particularly electronically aware, how do they pilfer cables without themselves getting electrocuted?

 

[dk1]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

On many occasions those trying to steal are rather thick and discover its fibre optic & worthless but the damage has been done.

 

[edwin_m]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

Power supply cables and "tail cables" that connect up individual pieces of equipment still have to be copper.

I'm not particularly electronically aware, how do they pilfer cables without themselves getting electrocuted?

There are ways of doing this if you aren't too concerned about health and safety. But probably not wise to discuss them here.

 

[zwk500]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

Data cables generally are fibre optics where compatible but there's a lot of old equipment on the railway that hasn't been replaced yet.

I'm not particularly electronically aware, how do they pilfer cables without themselves getting electrocuted?

They're not always lucky....

 

[Banham7]

Thankfully services should be resuming shortly, first train through should be additional 1G41 10:00 Sheffield - Lincoln.

Following a fault with the signalling system between Sheffield and Meadowhall all lines have now reopened.
Impact
Train services running through these stations may be cancelled or delayed. Disruption is expected until 12:00 10/02.
Customer Advice
Due to a total loss of signalling between Sheffield and Meadowhall, trains are beginning to run again. Disruption may continue for a short while until we get trains and crew in place again.

 

[yorksrob]

This ballsed up my plans as well.

 

[parkender102]

My son eventually got the 10:03 from Manchester to Bristol Temple Meads change there for Exeter. Leeds staff said Ticket Acceptance was in place but he's travelling on a Split Ticket Leeds-Sheffield-Derby-Burton on Trent-Bristol-Exeter. So he's completely off route and they were all Advance Singles for each leg. His original journey was Cross Country Direct Leeds to Exeter but the advice he got still puts him on Cross Country all the way but changes at Manchester and Britol. No problems with his tickets yet - I assume he will be able to claim Delay Repay but you have to do it individually for each ticketd leg as his arrival in Exeter will be 2 Hours Late.

 

[Annetts key]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

Power feeds to signalling equipment still requires copper line side cables over long distances (signalling is fed from a dedicated 650V feed).

Traditional (route) relay interlocking systems communicate using DC control signals. As these are safety critical systems, to change to using a data link over a fibre optic cable means completely replacing the existing interlocking system with new systems. Effectively that's replacing most of the signalling system. Money would have to be found for this, as it's rather expensive. Also, the local data link systems still use copper cable.

And, as said above, most cable thieves are far from the sharpest tools in the tool box. Most randomly cut through cables looking for the cable with the most metal. Once the cable is cut...

And its not unknown for them to flee with nothing, as the type of copper cables used by the railway are heavy. It takes a lot of effort to drag 200 metres of cable along the track.

As to providing CCTV, this would cost a lot of money. Where is this money coming from. Both for the cameras, posts, but also the cables. And what is to stop those cables from being damaged. Thieves already try to steal the CCTV cameras at level crossings.

There are many things that could be done to help with this problem of cable theft. But most ideas involve needing lots of money. But there is no magic money tree...

Strangely enough, back in past, in areas where the railway buried cables in the ground, cable theft was less of a problem. Before that, when telegraph poles were used, for telephone and block instrument systems, the thieves would climb the poles and cut the wires. So, this is not a new problem.

 

[Killingworth]

Power feeds to signalling equipment still requires copper line side cables over long distances (signalling is fed from a dedicated 650V feed).

Traditional (route) relay interlocking systems communicate using DC control signals. As these are safety critical systems, to change to using a data link over a fibre optic cable means completely replacing the existing interlocking system with new systems. Effectively that's replacing most of the signalling system. Money would have to be found for this, as it's rather expensive. Also, the local data link systems still use copper cable.

And, as said above, most cable thieves are far from the sharpest tools in the tool box. Most randomly cut through cables looking for the cable with the most metal. Once the cable us cut...

And its not unknown for them to flee with nothing, as the type of copper cables used by the railway are heavy. It takes a lot of effort to drag 200 metres of cable along the track.

As to providing CCTV, this would cost a lot of money. Where is this money coming from. Both for the cameras, posts, but also the cables. And what us to stop those cables from being damaged. Thieves already try to steal the CCTV cameras at level crossings.

There are many things that could be done to help with this problem of cable theft. But most ideas involve needing lots of money. But there is no magic money tree...

Strangely enough, back in past, in areas where the railway buried cables in the ground, cable theft was less of a problem. Before that, when telegraph poles were used, for telephone and block instrument systems, the thieves would climb the poles and cut the wires. So, this is not a new problem.

Thanks for this explanation.

I understand some of the copper cabling may have been stolen from the Hope Valley construction sites before it can be commissioned!

 

[CarrotPie]

Strangely enough, back in past, in areas where the railway buried cables in the ground, cable theft was less of a problem.

And then they did that everywhere and the reslting loss of low-hanging fruit meant thieves got good at digging up cables, which in turn rendered that method less useful. It's an arms race...

 

[AlbertBeale]

My son eventually got the 10:03 from Manchester to Bristol Temple Meads change there for Exeter. Leeds staff said Ticket Acceptance was in place but he's travelling on a Split Ticket Leeds-Sheffield-Derby-Burton on Trent-Bristol-Exeter. So he's completely off route and they were all Advance Singles for each leg. His original journey was Cross Country Direct Leeds to Exeter but the advice he got still puts him on Cross Country all the way but changes at Manchester and Britol. No problems with his tickets yet - I assume he will be able to claim Delay Repay but you have to do it individually for each ticketd leg as his arrival in Exeter will be 2 Hours Late.

I don't think you have to claim on tickets individually. It's all one journey, irrespective of ticketing in parts. Just claim from the TOC causing the initial delay and get them to provide recompense based on the total cost of all tickets for the journey - the percentage calculated according to how late the final arrival was compared to what it would have been on the original itinerary. (Providing the original plan was "valid", in the sense that ticket changes took place without changing trains, or if there was a change of train where the ticket changes, then the connection time was sufficient for it to be an official connection. If the tickets were bought in one go - wherever they were bought - then the validity of the itinerary can be assumed.)

 

[ptreanor]

Probably a silly question but the theft of copper signalling cables seems to be at the bottom of many supposed signal failures. All our copper telephone lines are being replaced by fibre optics. Why isn't copper railway signalling cabling being replaced in a similar way?

Expense for full replacement obviously, but it still seems to be being installed

Many cables still have to be electrically conductive for supplying power etc. Fibre cables cannot do this.