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Make rail travel free

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yorksrob

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Yes, but the key need is to reduce the number of short journeys by car, replacing them by walking and public transport as appropriate, rather than necessarily longer journeys. This can only partially be addressed by railways.

Modal shift for existing journeys is far more important than meeting demand for new ones, for obvious reasons. That is not delivered by making all public transport free.

Workplace parking charges, ultra low emission zones, low traffic neighbourhoods, closing off roads, road pricing are all policies which influence modal shift, without making public transport free. However, they are generally criticised by influential lobbyists as a 'war on the motorist'.

Carbon emissions reductions, whilst important, are only one issue though. There are the issues of building the economy and enabling people to get to where they need/want to be. This involves longer distance travel as well.

I agree, free rail travel isn't the answer, but the current war on rail passengers isn't the answer either.
 
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JonathanH

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Rail travel has been free for me since 1984 and i make good use of it. Always surprised me over the years how so many of my colleagues never do though.
I guess it depends on a number of factors. Some people simply have less cause to travel than others.

Not saying it is the instance of you colleagues, but if someone lives at a short distance from their workplace, has family all in the local area, is content with the amenities and activities in their local area, and has predominantly home-based interests, they don't need to travel much at all.
 

dk1

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I guess it depends on a number of factors. Some people simply have less cause to travel than others.

Not saying it is the instance of you colleagues, but if someone lives at a short distance from their workplace, has family all in the local area, is content with the amenities and activities in their local area, and has predominantly home-based interests, they don't need to travel much at all.
They often drove anyway even though rail was an option but couldn't be bothered. Some people are as so attached to their cars and seldom walk anywhere either.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Of course, with Avanti, every chance you'll end up with a 'free' journey. ("Delay Repay" on a journey using a single ticket where the delay is 60+ minutes).
 

mangyiscute

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They often drove anyway even though rail was an option but couldn't be bothered. Some people are as so attached to their cars and seldom walk anywhere either.
Of course you'll have a few people like that, but the people I tend to speak to say they would take the train if it was a) cheaper and b) convinient - often an hour drive is a 3 hour public transport journey or something like that.
 

dk1

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Of course you'll have a few people like that, but the people I tend to speak to say they would take the train if it was a) cheaper and b) convinient - often an hour drive is a 3 hour public transport journey or something like that.

Yes but the people I was talking about get rail travel free anyway.
 

mangyiscute

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Yes but the people I was talking about get rail travel free anyway.
Yes but my point is that a lot of peopel will transition to using trains more if you make trains free. Plus, these people are presumably working on or around the railways, and for a lot of people they don't like to be near/do anything associated with work while they are not working, so this could influence their decisions.
 

RT4038

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Yes but my point is that a lot of peopel will transition to using trains more if you make trains free. Plus, these people are presumably working on or around the railways, and for a lot of people they don't like to be near/do anything associated with work while they are not working, so this could influence their decisions.
Not sure about lots of people transitioning to trains, more like lots of people making extra journeys that they wouldn't do now - some of them who would not be desirable to be travelling with. Without any of the commercial incentives there would little reason for the train operator to provide convenient or adequate services, or any comfort either. In fact the incentive would be to provide the very least that could be got away with, at the very least cost.
 

dk1

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Yes but my point is that a lot of peopel will transition to using trains more if you make trains free. Plus, these people are presumably working on or around the railways, and for a lot of people they don't like to be near/do anything associated with work while they are not working, so this could influence their decisions.

Yes there has been a proportion of staff that look at it like that. Very odd and like spiting the nose off their own face in my opinion.
 

aavm

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Free off peak travel for senior bus pass holders would be feasible. Wouldn't replace car trips like shopping but would be a lot of new leisure trips. Taxpayer might even get some of their money back from the extra economic activity.
 

Helvellyn

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So taxation is at the highest levels in approximately 70 years and we have a proposal to make rail travel free for all.

Many have already mentioned that demand would massively outstrip capacity, which is happening in many places now with a paid railway.

So you would need extra trains, extra staff, extra depots, etc. They can't be magiced up overnight so what happens in the meantime?

Then you need to start dealing with all the bottlenecks that would start appearing on the network - more taxpayer money required to deal with that.

What about all the extra congestion around stations as people drive there to use the free train. Will car parking be free as well? Who pays to expand the car parks?

Then you will get all those who don't have access to a railway wanting lines built or reopened - more money needed, etc.

Unlike health care or education where there is an expectation it's available to all locally that just isn't feasible for a railway, and as it would be many in rural communities without access they would still gave the expense of running cars, etc.

As for railcards that some have mentioned as an alternative - ditch them all and just reduce off peak fares for all by one third or one quarter! Then bring in an LNER style loyalty scheme where you earn rewards to discount future travel.
 

mrcheek

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I remember somebody made a meme of this some years back.

"If travel was free you would never see me" or some such nonsense.

If travel was free, then all planes, trains and buses would be full of annoying people making pointless journeys. so the people who really needed to use them wouldnt bother.

Yes, it would be lovely if travel was free. Wouldnt it be lovely if everything was free?
Except things dont, and cant, work like that
 

JonathanH

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Yes, it would be lovely if travel was free. Wouldnt it be lovely if everything was free?
Except things dont, and cant, work like that
Well, I guess you could make travel free, but then require people to justify why they need to make the relevant journey, and have some sort of artificial intelligence algorithm decide whether the justification was valid, but that sort of authoritarianism would be highly undesirable.
 

yorksrob

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As for railcards that some have mentioned as an alternative - ditch them all and just reduce off peak fares for all by one third or one quarter! Then bring in an LNER style loyalty scheme where you earn rewards to discount future travel.

Well, that could work, but don't forget, the purchase of railcards is a nice little earner for the industry.

Plus you'd lose lose the psychological impulse of people getting their moneys worth from the card.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Well, I guess you could make travel free, but then require people to justify why they need to make the relevant journey, and have some sort of artificial intelligence algorithm decide whether the justification was valid, but that sort of authoritarianism would be highly undesirable.
Indeed. To put it in the terms I vaguely remember from A Level Economics almost forty years ago (I'm old, ouch) railway transport is a scarce resource (only so many seats on the train, only so many trains on the track). If the demand exceeds the supply, then some sort of rationing mechanism is required.

At the moment, that rationing mechanism is to charge a fare - if you can't afford the fare, you don't travel (or you fare-dodge - but A level Economics assumes everyone to be law abiding). Take away fares, and you need some other rationing mechanism.

The challenge is to find that mechanism and get everyone to go along with it. Speaking personally, I wouldn't want to go with queuing - I like to get on the train I choose to commute, not have to wait several hours for space to be available. So if the queue won't work either then what else is there?
 

Mcr Warrior

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Take away fares, and you need some other rationing mechanism.

The challenge is to find that mechanism and get everyone to go along with it. Speaking personally, I wouldn't want to go with queuing - I like to get on the train I choose to commute, not have to wait several hours for space to be available. So if the queue won't work either then what else is there?
Compulsory (zero fare) reservations for each and every journey made, no matter how short? Fairly sure such a system would work! Wouldn't it?
 

JonathanH

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Compulsory (zero fare) reservations for each and every journey, no matter how short? Fairly sure such a system would work!
But that becomes first come first served, which doesn't reflect the purpose, or perhaps more importantly the economic worth or other necessity aspect, of the journey.
 

dk1

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But that becomes first come first served, which doesn't reflect the purpose, or perhaps more importantly the economic worth or other necessity aspect, of the journey.

Yes no thanks. I never reserve and like the walk up freedom regardless of how full the train is. My choice to wedge myself into a vestibule if I want to.
 

Fawkes Cat

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Compulsory (zero fare) reservations for each and every journey made, no matter how short? Fairly sure such a system would work! Wouldn't it?
Rather too easy to game. I commute and always get the 1730 train home - except when I have to work late when I get the 1800. And I don't know I will work late until the day itself. So to be on the safe side, as soon as the reservation window opens I will make my free reservation every day for both the 1730 and 1800. Of course, I won't use half my reservations - but that doesn't inconvenience me. It's someone else who suffers through not being allowed on the train.
 

DeverseSam

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This discussion could include the consequences of these recent developments :

Deutschland ticket - nearly free for all local transport = overcrowding
Luxembourg - all local transport fee = works
Spain - some season tickets free with some hoops to go through = confusion
 

JonathanH

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This discussion could include the consequences of these recent developments :

Deutschland ticket - nearly free for all local transport = overcrowding
Luxembourg - all local transport fee = works
Spain - some season tickets free with some hoops to go through = confusion
Yes, interesting.

I imagine Luxembourg works and Germany doesn't because the area covered by Luxembourg free travel is limited by the borders of the country and the underlying demand.

People in Germany are used to stringing together a whole load of local journeys to make long distance journeys and the demand was already close to the supply at the previous prices on many routes. It is an interesting question as to whether restricting distance would have been more appropriate.

Reducing bus fares in England to £2 doesn't appear to have led to overcrowding. I dont think reducing them to £1 would either. I don't get the impression that bus provision has increased as a result.
 

dk1

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Reducing bus fares in England to £2 doesn't appear to have led to overcrowding. I dont think reducing them to £1 would either. I don't get the impression that bus provision has increased as a result.

The thing with buses is that so many people will never consider using them whereas they will use a train. Been like that as long as I can remember.
 

Helvellyn

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Well, that could work, but don't forget, the purchase of railcards is a nice little earner for the industry.

Plus you'd lose lose the psychological impulse of people getting their moneys worth from the card.
My point was that besides single people 30-65 who aren't veterans, disabled or in the Network Area there are pretty much railcards for so many people now it would be simpler just to discount all fares so cheaper overall. With all the admin of providing websites and issuing cards scrapping them and doing a flat fare reduction might have more impact.

Reducing bus fares in England to £2 doesn't appear to have led to overcrowding. I dont think reducing them to £1 would either. I don't get the impression that bus provision has increased as a reresult.
It's also not a permanent scheme though (was extended from the original end date of March) so increasing bus service provision that might stimulate more demand isn't something bus companies will do if the scheme ends and people won't pay the higher prices. Why invest in more buses (or keep older ones in service) plus employ more drivers and maintenance staff if you can't guarantee demand won't drop off when the scheme ends?
 
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JonathanH

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My point was that besides single people 30-65 who aren't veterans, disabled or in the Network Area there are pretty much railcards for so many people now it would be simpler just to discount all fares so cheaper overall.
Psychologically there is an advantage to operating the railcard system, because people feel they are getting a reduction. Also, there are people who demonstrably can afford to pay the non-discounted fares.

Reducing all fares by 34% would soon be forgotten, and people would start saying fares are too expensive again.
 

yorksrob

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My point was that besides single people 30-65 who aren't veterans, disabled or in the Network Area there are pretty much railcards for so many people now it would be simpler just to discount all fares so cheaper overall. With all the admin of providing websites and issuing cards scrapping them and doing a flat fare reduction might have more impact.


It's also not a permanent scheme though (was extended from the original end date of March) so increasing bus service provision that might stimulate more demand isn't something bus companies will do if the scheme ends and people won't pay the higher prices. Why invest in more buses (or keep older ones in service) plus employ more drivers and maintenance staff if you can't guarantee demand won't drop off when the scheme ends?

Or just have one railcard available to everyone !
 

mangyiscute

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So taxation is at the highest levels in approximately 70 years and we have a proposal to make rail travel free for all.
Not to get all political, but consider why we are in this situation where taxes are high, and yet almost all public sectors are on the brink of total failure. Perhaps it's that the current government does not have the nation's best interests at hearts, and instead is just feeding as much of that taxpayer money into their own pockets as they possibly can. There's no reason another government wouldn't be able to make better use of the money we have
 

RT4038

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Not to get all political, but consider why we are in this situation where taxes are high, and yet almost all public sectors are on the brink of total failure. Perhaps it's that the current government does not have the nation's best interests at hearts, and instead is just feeding as much of that taxpayer money into their own pockets as they possibly can. There's no reason another government wouldn't be able to make better use of the money we have
About as much as thinking there is no reason another government would do any better? Perhaps the high taxes are to do with paying for the historical borrowing for spending on Covid [both health and cushioning the lack of productivity] ?
 

Helvellyn

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Not to get all political, but consider why we are in this situation where taxes are high, and yet almost all public sectors are on the brink of total failure. Perhaps it's that the current government does not have the nation's best interests at hearts, and instead is just feeding as much of that taxpayer money into their own pockets as they possibly can. There's no reason another government wouldn't be able to make better use of the money we have
Maybe, maybe not. But rail will never be top of anyone's agenda before the NHS, Education, Welfare/Pensions and Defence so they would get any serious money ahead of rail. Plus unfortunately HS2 has probably done for significant investment in the short term with the Treasury the same way the Modernisation Plan did 60 years ago.
 

mangyiscute

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About as much as thinking there is no reason another government would do any better? Perhaps the high taxes are to do with paying for the historical borrowing for spending on Covid [both health and cushioning the lack of productivity] ?
Yep just blame it all on COVID, oh wait, how come other countries aren't in anywhere near as bad a place as the UK? They went through COVID too
 

Bevan Price

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Personally, I like the idea of free public transport. Whilst there might be an initial surge of demand, I think that would slowly subside to a lower level once people got fed up with making too many journeys.
However, I cannot see it ever being allowed to happen in UK. The economy is in a semi-parmanent mess; one lot of politicians causes the mess; the other lot has insufficient time to sort things out before they lose an election.
Also we have organisations like Treasury and DfT......(need I say more about that lot??)
 
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