Manchester CTLZ

[bb21]

Does anyone know what this is? Does it mean Manchester Central Zone? Was looking at Stockport-Manchester Picc/Stns on Avantix and no 'Any Permitted' fare were shown however a host of fare were available for Manchester CTLZ including 'Any Permitted'.

 

[scrapy]

Tickets from anywhere in Greater Manchester ticketing area plus New Mills, Disley, Ashley, Mobberley and Knutsford to Manchester will say Manchester CTLZ rather than Manchester Stations. This gives free onward travel from Victoria, Piccadilly, Deansgate to any Metrolink City Zone station. Fares from outside Greater Manchester are to Manchester Stations which excludes tram travel, (or to Metrolink City for an extra fee which includes tram travel).

 

[pemma]

But to add confusion Metrolink City route:Altrincham means changing to the tram at Altrincham to proceed to Manchester City Centre and is not valid on trains between Altrincham and Manchester.

 

[Ivo]

Just to add (for anyone who doesn't know), the city zone is defined as Piccadilly/GMex/Victoria. Trams can be used at will in this triangle.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But to add confusion Metrolink City route:Altrincham means changing to the tram at Altrincham to proceed to Manchester City Centre and is not valid on trains between Altrincham and Manchester.

Not true.

Tickets from Mouldsworth to Navigation road inclusive, to Manchester CTLZ may be used on the Metrolink from Altrincham/Navigation Road only on a Sunday, when there is no rail service.

The only other time a ticket is valid on the Metrolink services outside of the City zone is where the passenger holds a valid ticket between Manchester and the appropriate Metrolink station.

A ticket from Liverpool to Exchange Quay Metrolink would be valid from Liverpool to Manchester, then from Manchester to Exchange Quay. It is NOT valid for interchange at Eccles.

Similarly, a ticket From Chester to Timperley Metrolink would be valid from Chester to Manchester then on the Metrolink to Timperley, it is NOT valid for interchange at Altrincham, even on a Sunday.

However, a ticket from Mouldsworth to Timperley Metrolink would be valid for interchange at Altrincham, but only on a Sunday.

 

[Deerfold]

Not true.

Tickets from Mouldsworth to Navigation road inclusive, to Manchester CTLZ may be used on the Metrolink from Altrincham/Navigation Road only on a Sunday, when there is no rail service.

Apart from the every two hours Chester - Southport service (only half the frequency of the weekday service).

 

[pemma]

Not true.

You're information is very wrong and you're promoting the more expensive 'rebooking at Altrincham' that MCRUA are trying to encourage people not to do as Northern don't promote it. Through ticketing is available at Altrincham and has existed since 1992. However, through ticketing is not available for stations beyond Hale from Metrolink ticket machines but is from any National Rail ticket office.

If I turned up at Knutsford station and said I want to go to Manchester I would be given a Manchester CTLZ ticket, this would not normally be valid to change on to the tram at Altrincham, but would allow me to get on a tram as far as GMex or Victoria from Piccadilly.

On the other hand if I said I want to go to Manchester but change to the tram at Altrincham I would be given a ticket which states Metrolink City and states Route:Altrincham. This would be invalid for travel between Altrincham and Manchester by train.

If you had a ticket saying Mouldsworth to Timperley it is not valid on the train between Altrincham and Manchester or on the tram between Manchester and Timperley on any day - such information could lead to someone being given a Metrolink penalty fare and being excessed by a Northern conductor.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Apart from the every two hours Chester - Southport service (only half the frequency of the weekday service).

Oh fair enough, I didn't think there was one.

You're information is very wrong and you're promoting the more expensive 'rebooking at Altrincham' that MCRUA are trying to encourage people not to do as Northern don't promote it. Through ticketing is available at Altrincham and has existed since 1992. However, through ticketing is not available for stations beyond Hale from Metrolink ticket machines but is from any National Rail ticket office.

If I turned up at Knutsford station and said I want to go to Manchester I would be given a Manchester CTLZ ticket, this would not normally be valid to change on to the tram at Altrincham, but would allow me to get on a tram as far as GMex or Victoria from Piccadilly.

On the other hand if I said I want to go to Manchester but change to the tram at Altrincham I would be given a ticket which states Metrolink City and states Route:Altrincham. This would be invalid for travel between Altrincham and Manchester by train....

....

Journeys to Metrolink from outside the Greater Manchester area

All stations on the National Rail Network (outside the Greater Manchester area) may book to any station on the Metrolink system. This product is a simple add-on to the Manchester Stns fare.

.....

Travel between Altrincham/Navigation Road, Hale and the Mid-Cheshire line stations on Sunday only

Passengers travelling from stations Altrincham/Navigation Road to Mouldsworth inclusive, who wish to travel to or via Manchester on Sundays only, may travel on Metrolink Services between Altrincham/Navigation Road and Manchester Piccadilly, Deansgate and Manchester Victoria at no extra cost.

Ticketing is as for a normal journey.

Note: Passengers from Chester may not use this facility and should travel on direct services to Manchester only.

....

Also, the Fastis machines Northern Rail use, and the FRPP, do not show any 'Rte: Altrincham' tickets to Metrolink CITY from the Mid-Cheshire line stations, only 'Rte: Any Permitted'.

If you had a ticket saying Mouldsworth to Timperley it is not valid on the train between Altrincham and Manchester or on the tram between Manchester and Timperley on any day of the day - such information could lead to someone being given a Metrolink penalty fare and being excessed by a Northern conductor.

But if you were to go to Timperley, you would normally go via Manchester, the instructions say that in such cases, on a Sunday, you can go via the Metrolink at no extra cost, It does not specify that it must be a ticket for a destination beyond the Metrolink system.

 

[pemma]

You're quoting some information and making incorrect assumptions note the following information from MCRUA:

Through tickets are available from any National Rail station to any Metrolink station. There are through fares (including season tickets) from stations on the mid-Cheshire line to Metrolink stations changing at Altrincham. Metrolink stations between G-Mex, Piccadilly and Victoria are grouped together as the destination “Metrolink City”. The only proviso is that if you travel to Manchester by changing onto Metrolink at Altrincham you must return by the same route. Return tickets to Metrolink City are not valid for return travel on the train from Piccadilly via Stockport. Likewise if you travel to Manchester on the train via Stockport you must return via Stockport. Tickets between the mid-Cheshire line and Manchester via Stockport (to destinations “Manchester Stns” or “Manchester Central Zone”) are not valid for return on Metrolink services via Sale. All tickets to Manchester from Knutsford, Mobberley, Ashley, Hale, Altrincham and Navigation Road via Stockport show “Manchester Central Zone” as the destination. This means that the ticket can be used for onward travel on the Metrolink from Piccadilly to Victoria or G-Mex (only).

Maybe Metrolink City doesn't say Route:Altrincham but if you try something like Old Trafford Metrolink from somewhere like Knutsford it states 'Route:Altrincham' not 'Route:Manchester' or 'Route:Any Permitted' You are correct that the same provision is not available at Eccles though.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its faster by tram from Altrincham than to continue on the train whereas reverse is true at Eccles I guess, plus the Altrincham Metrolink line was the original route of the Cheshire-Manchester service. Exceptions made to peculiar circumstance. This Altrincham line diversion will remain the only service faster than train I believe, certainly not for Rochdale and I imagine same applies to East Didsbury, Airport and Ashton. If a heavy rail platforms built at Central Park that could be touch and go as to which is faster though I imagine many will prefer to keep their seat.

 

[pemma]

Its faster by tram from Altrincham than to continue on the train

That depends how long you have to wait for a tram at Altrincham and whether you want G-Mex or St Peters Square that all trams call at or Piccadilly that alternate trams call at.

I don't like doing Manchester-Cheshire by tram and train as you don't know what time the last tram you can catch is in order to pick up the train at Altrincham.

 

[CompactDstrxion]

Avantix NFM 6 shows the only Route from Knutsford to Metrolink City is Altrincham not Any Permitted.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

NONE of that is in the FRPP, (the National Fares Manual (NFM)).

There are NO route Altrincham tickets from any station on that line in the FRPP or the Fastis Machine that Northern use, and I know of none from any other station.

I have made only ONE assuption, for which there are NO contradictory statements in the FRPP, or even on the Metrolink (GMPTE) website.

There is nothing on the GMPTE site that I have seen to confirm your statements.

If I have missed that information perhaps you could provide a link to it?

 

[pemma]

There are NO route Altrincham tickets from any station on that line in the FRPP or the Fastis Machine that Northern use, and I know of none from any other station.

I give up. I have been sold combined tickets saying 'Route:Altrincham' that have been issued to me at Northern managed Knutsford ticket office and you're saying Northern don't do them.

Evening Returns don't appear in the fare manual either do they and GMPTE and Northern only state they are available from GM stations, yet Knutsford-Manchester has an evening return fare available, as does Knutsford-Stockport.

The fact is there is a £5 off-peak Knutsford-Metrolink City ticket that doesn't allow railcard discounts and a £5.80 Knutsford-Manchester CTLZ ticket that allows railcard discounts. Your argument of they are both only valid via Stockport makes no sense.

 

[radamfi]

If the Knutsford to Metrolink City ticket was valid via Stockport (and not via Old Trafford) then there would be no point getting a Knutsford to Manchester Central Zone ticket (unless you have a railcard) as the Knutsford to Metrolink City ticket is cheaper and has the same validity!

 

[pemma]

If the Knutsford to Metrolink City ticket was valid via Stockport (and not via Old Trafford) then there would be no point getting a Knutsford to Manchester Central Zone ticket (unless you have a railcard) as the Knutsford to Metrolink City ticket is cheaper and has the same validity!

Yes that's the point I'm trying to make and the only reason for a railcard discount being refused on an off-peak ticket after 10am is that the ticket involves a significant amount of travelling on a non-National Rail service i.e. the Metrolink. Railcard discounts are available on rail tickets with a Metrolink city centre add on but not a combined ticket such as Bramall to Bury.

 

[janb]

I give up. I have been sold combined tickets saying 'Route:Altrincham' that have been issued to me at Northern managed Knutsford ticket office and you're saying Northern don't do them.

I don't know what hhf is doing, perhaps getting confused between Manchester Central Zone, and Metrolink City. You are right jcollins, Knutsford to Metrolink City is Route Altrincham, I checked on STAR before I left work.

 

[radamfi]

It is a bit silly, though, having it as 'route Altrincham' as you have to go through Altrincham whether you go by tram or not. It gives a modest hint of being forced to change at Altrincham, implying you must go by tram, but 'route Sale' or 'route Stockport' would be far more definitive. Perhaps it is not acceptable for a National Rail ticket to specify a non-National Rail station on the route!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is also kind of important to get to the bottom of this as the Metrolink 'standard fare' (penalty fare) is £100!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh hang on, yes okay my bad, i put in manchester city in error, rather than metrolink city, but I still see nothing in the FRPP to say it is valid from Altrincham on the Metrolink though.

Cheap evening returns do appear in the FRPP, undeer the PTE information and in the Fares finder as ECD.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

This is a very confusing conundrum. On All the GMPTE maps, Knutsford, Ashley and Mobberley are outside the GMPTE area. Under the GMPTE instructions, fares to "Manchester CTLZ" are only available from stations within the GMPTE area, while fares to "Metrolink City" are available from stations outside the GMPTE area. Fares to just Manchester should be to "Manchester Stns" from outside the GMPTE area.

Now, therefore, Knutsford, Ashley and Mobberley should have fares to Manchester Stns or Metrolink City, while Hale should have Manchester CTLZ or fares to the Metrolink zones (A to H excluding D). BUT, all 4 stations both in and out of the GMPTE area have fares to Manchester CTLZ Rte Any Permitted, AND Metrolink City Rte Altrincham. So it all seems a bit odd.

In the Fares Manual, in the GMPTE section look under the heading "Journeys to Metrolink from Within the Greater Manchester area". This would not be a logical place to look as 3 of the stations under discussion are outside the GMPTE area so you would look under the different heading. But, it does list a destination of "Metrolink City - Only used from Knutsford, Ashley, Mobberley and Hale for journeys via Sale", which obviously implies you must go on Metrolink from Altrincham. However, this information appears to be printed differently on the ticket itself.

Thus, it would seem that up to Knutsford is both inside and outside the GMPTE area depending on what ticket you have. Talk about confusing!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....In the Fares Manual, in the GMPTE section look under the heading "Journeys to Metrolink from Within the Greater Manchester area". This would not be a logical place to look as 3 of the stations under discussion are outside the GMPTE area so you would look under the different heading. But, it does list a destination of "Metrolink City - Only used from Knutsford, Ashley, Mobberley and Hale for journeys via Sale", which obviously implies you must go on Metrolink from Altrincham. However, this information appears to be printed differently on the ticket itself....

That would explain why I hadn't seen it in there, I wouldn't have expected it to be there, a simpler routeing on the ticket would make it clearer.

 

[radamfi]

Can anyone say where this information is available to the public?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Can anyone say where this information is available to the public?

It's probably not. It'll be one of those great well kept secrets!

 

[pemma]

It is a bit silly, though, having it as 'route Altrincham' as you have to go through Altrincham whether you go by tram or not.

Knutsford-Sheffield routetockport is very similar - it means you can't go via Manchester. In this case though if it said something like route:Hazel Grove it would just cause more confusion as most Sheffield trains don't call there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can anyone say where this information is available to the public?

By asking ticket office staff on the Mid-Cheshire line (or conductors working the Mid-Cheshire line) with the former usually knowing better as it's their local line opposed to one of the local lines in the case of the conductors. MCRUA put the information in their newsletters and want Northern to promote it but I think Northern don't want to as they'll lose revenue by doing so.

 

[radamfi]

It's probably not. It'll be one of those great well kept secrets!

That doesn't sound acceptable to me. Is there a good reason why the FRPP isn't available to the general public, given that the Technical Manuals were on the National Rail website?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Try on this CD-ROM from our friends at TSO.

 

[radamfi]

That's just the fares and restrictions. I'm talking about the rest of what used to be in the Fare Manual. Section P in the North West edition was all about Metrolink, for example.

Public access to the FRPP is essential to know that a Knutsford to Metrolink City fare is valid via Sale.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't have the CD-ROM so I don't know what is on it, but if it isn't on there then I can't make another suggestion.

 

[radamfi]

My question was really aimed at those in charge. Basically, the passenger is being ripped off because he doesn't have all the information. Nobody should be buying a Knutsford to Manchester Central Zone ticket as a Metrolink City ticket is cheaper. How do I know there aren't other things on FRPP that aren't anywhere else on the web that are essential information to the passenger?

 

[pemma]

Nobody should be buying a Knutsford to Manchester Central Zone ticket as a Metrolink City ticket is cheaper.

There are some exceptions such as railcard users travelling at times where there is no minimum fare (as mentioned), cyclists who wish to travel with their bike, people with luggage and the less physically able who would find an additional change an inconvience.