Manchester-Glossop/Hadfield overhead equipment

[90sWereBetter]

I had several journeys on this line in the past week, and I noticed that the overhead gantries look almost ancient. This is very noticeable east of Guide Bridge where the line to Stalybridge is slowly being electrified, the shiny new equipment on one side and the massive iron contraptions heading towards Hadfield. I presume this is original equipment from the Woodhead line electrification programme?

There's also some gantries where only half of the formation is wired up (particularly between Ashfields and Guide Bridge. I presume once again this is a legacy of the Woodhead line being descoped and closed east of Hadfield?

 

[jfollows]

I presume this is original equipment from the Woodhead line electrification programme?

There's also some gantries where only half of the formation is wired up (particularly between Ashfields and Guide Bridge. I presume once again this is a legacy of the Woodhead line being descoped and closed east of Hadfield?

The equipment dates from the original DC electrification, yes.
Ashburys-Guide Bridge was four-track in the past, however the northern pair of lines were goods lines from memory.
http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/woodhead3/mswstage2_150dpi_q25.jpg is a high-resolution diagram. It's too large to upload here. It shows that my memory was only partly good - the northern pair of lines starts out as goods lines but crossovers at Priory Junction (between Ashburys and Gorton) change the northern pair to slow lines to Guide Bridge (so they could be used by passenger trains).
The goods/slow lines were "rationalised" prior to closure east of Hadfield and had mainly gone when I travelled over the line in the late 1970s. By the time of closure east of Hadfield there were still a pair of goods lines Ashburys-Gorton; Priory Junction had been removed and the lines were goods lines all the way to Gorton only (I visited Gorton Junction box around the time), then a turnout to an up slow through Guide Bridge, from where there were four tracks again (goods from Guide Bridge Ashton Junction) to Hyde Junction.

It used to be possible, and probably still is, to see original DC overhead gantries on the Liverpool Street to Gidea Park section, although I've not travelled over it recently myself.

EDIT I was able to upload my plan of the route, dating from about 1979, in other words before closure of the line beyond Hadfield.

 

[AM9]

I had several journeys on this line in the past week, and I noticed that the overhead gantries look almost ancient. This is very noticeable east of Guide Bridge where the line to Stalybridge is slowly being electrified, the shiny new equipment on one side and the massive iron contraptions heading towards Hadfield. I presume this is original equipment from the Woodhead line electrification programme?

There's also some gantries where only half of the formation is wired up (particularly between Ashfields and Guide Bridge. I presume once again this is a legacy of the Woodhead line being descoped and closed east of Hadfield?

Yes the LNER designed OLE structures were made to last a long time! There are still a few of the original A-frame gantries in use on the GEML, together (I think) with some compound catenary that was installed for the 1500VDC trains completed in 1949.

 

[59CosG95]

Yes the LNER designed OLE structures were made to last a long time! There are still a few of the original A-frame gantries in use on the GEML, together (I think) with some compound catenary that was installed for the 1500VDC trains completed in 1949.

On the GEML, there is now (I believe) only one tension length of compound catenary left; this is through Stratford P5 on the Up Electric Line.
IIRC there are still some compound runs from Prittlewell to Southend Vic, and on the LTS route west of Barking but I can't quantify the exact number.

 

[Beebman]

There's still some LNER designed OLE structures with compound catenary between Fenchurch Street and Gas Factory Jct although the layout was altered as far as Limehouse when the DLR opened.

 

[59CosG95]

There's still some LNER designed OLE structures with compound catenary between Fenchurch Street and Gas Factory Jct although the layout was altered as far as Limehouse when the DLR opened.

Indeed - ISTR that Mk3(C?) OLE replaced at least half of the compound stuff in the 80s/90s, with spanwire portal arrangements.
That arrangement *should* be going as part of the c2c OLE renewal works.

 

[billh]

There's still some overhead spans from Woodhead days near Ashton Moss South Junction (as was). They have not carried current conductors for over half a century, having been de-electrified in 1972!

The equipment dates from the original DC electrification, yes.
Ashburys-Guide Bridge was four-track in the past, however the northern pair of lines were goods lines from memory.
http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/woodhead3/mswstage2_150dpi_q25.jpg is a high-resolution diagram. It's too large to upload here. It shows that my memory was only partly good - the northern pair of lines starts out as goods lines but crossovers at Priory Junction (between Ashburys and Gorton) change the northern pair to slow lines to Guide Bridge (so they could be used by passenger trains).
The goods/slow lines were "rationalised" prior to closure east of Hadfield and had mainly gone when I travelled over the line in the late 1970s. By the time of closure east of Hadfield there were still a pair of goods lines Ashburys-Gorton; Priory Junction had been removed and the lines were goods lines all the way to Gorton only (I visited Gorton Junction box around the time), then a turnout to an up slow through Guide Bridge, from where there were four tracks again (goods from Guide Bridge Ashton Junction) to Hyde Junction.

It used to be possible, and probably still is, to see original DC overhead gantries on the Liverpool Street to Gidea Park section, although I've not travelled over it recently myself.

EDIT I was able to upload my plan of the route, dating from about 1979, in other words before closure of the line beyond Hadfield.

The up and down goods lines between Ashburys and Gorton are still intact. The down is in regular use by stone trains , the up is somewhat overgrown but appears to be illuminated ground signalled at Gorton. The stone empties are not routed whence they came loaded, going via Ashton Moss ,Denton etc. so the up goods serves no purpose beyond the stone terminal

 

[jfollows]

The up and down goods lines between Ashburys and Gorton are still intact. The down is in regular use by stone trains , the up is somewhat overgrown but appears to be illuminated ground signalled at Gorton. The stone empties are not routed whence they came loaded, going via Ashton Moss ,Denton etc. so the up goods serves no purpose beyond the stone terminal

Thank you - I hadn't considered they'd still be in use.
From the Sectional Appendix (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...3/London North Western (North) March 2023.pdf):

 

[Beebman]

There's also still a handful of disused overhead spans on the Guide Bridge to Stalybridge line at Dukinfield. Here's a link to a Google Street View image dated Sept 2021 showing one of them:

https://goo.gl/maps/uF8DEoX6Krw4gBNa7

AFAIK the reason why wiring extended this far was to provide some sort of headshunt for the yards at Guide Bridge. Here's a link to a photo of Dukinfield Station taken in steam days showing that one line was wired:

https://pjbrailwayphotos.piwigo.com/picture?/29254

 

[snowball]

There's also still a handful of disused overhead spans on the Guide Bridge to Stalybridge line at Dukinfield. Here's a link to a Google Street View image dated Sept 2021 showing one of them:

https://goo.gl/maps/uF8DEoX6Krw4gBNa7

Indeed some of these are interspersed with newly erected STCs and TTCs, Some can be seen in the photographs posted by Freel07 on Skyscrapercity and linked from time to time by me from the TRU thread on here. See for example post #5044 on this SSC page.

 

[billh]

There's also still a handful of disused overhead spans on the Guide Bridge to Stalybridge line at Dukinfield. Here's a link to a Google Street View image dated Sept 2021 showing one of them:

https://goo.gl/maps/uF8DEoX6Krw4gBNa7

AFAIK the reason why wiring extended this far was to provide some sort of headshunt for the yards at Guide Bridge. Here's a link to a photo of Dukinfield Station taken in steam days showing that one line was wired:

https://pjbrailwayphotos.piwigo.com/picture?/29254

Electric trains could arrive at Brookside sidings from Guide Bridge East, which used to come onto the Stalybridge main at GB North junction. Sometimes the trains were long and double headed EM1s (class 76) . This needed the locos to go right to the end of the overhead (near the present Asda store at Cavendish(?) St) and occasionally dropping the pans on the front loco,before reversing into the sidings. The now single line curve from GB East Junction feeds into the " Avenue" sidings with a complicated move to get onto the Stalybridge line. The name Avenue derives from the long uniform line of trees planted alongside the sidings between the railway and the River Tame and the old LNW Guide Bridge avoiding line between Denton and Dukinfield Junctions.

 

[Jonny]

The equipment dates from the original DC electrification, yes.
Ashburys-Guide Bridge was four-track in the past, however the northern pair of lines were goods lines from memory.
http://www.lymmobservatory.net/railways/sbdiagrams/woodhead3/mswstage2_150dpi_q25.jpg is a high-resolution diagram. It's too large to upload here. It shows that my memory was only partly good - the northern pair of lines starts out as goods lines but crossovers at Priory Junction (between Ashburys and Gorton) change the northern pair to slow lines to Guide Bridge (so they could be used by passenger trains).
The goods/slow lines were "rationalised" prior to closure east of Hadfield and had mainly gone when I travelled over the line in the late 1970s. By the time of closure east of Hadfield there were still a pair of goods lines Ashburys-Gorton; Priory Junction had been removed and the lines were goods lines all the way to Gorton only (I visited Gorton Junction box around the time), then a turnout to an up slow through Guide Bridge, from where there were four tracks again (goods from Guide Bridge Ashton Junction) to Hyde Junction.

It used to be possible, and probably still is, to see original DC overhead gantries on the Liverpool Street to Gidea Park section, although I've not travelled over it recently myself.

EDIT I was able to upload my plan of the route, dating from about 1979, in other words before closure of the line beyond Hadfield.

I've just done a flyby on Google Earth, 53°28'28.57"N 2° 6'47.21"W (+/-)

There look to be masts to the south of the current lines, is that where the old fast lines were?

Is the current pair of lines just the northern ones (slow/goods lines) or were they just realigned completely at some stage?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The equipment dates from the original DC electrification, yes.

Yes the LNER designed OLE structures were made to last a long time! There are still a few of the original A-frame gantries in use on the GEML, together (I think) with some compound catenary that was installed for the 1500VDC trains completed in 1949.

When was installation of the structures necessary to support the 1500v lines commenced?

Presumably the 1930's, so some of the supports might now be 85+ years old.

Below is one of a number of (very similar) various contemporary newspaper sources from December 1939 suggesting that several miles of electrification-related work had already been undertaken, (before work was suspended due to the onset of WW2).

Extract...

...Good progress had been made prior to the outbreak of war: several miles of overhead structures to carry the 1,500-volt D.C. transmission wires had been erected; special overhead equipment in the Woodhead Tunnel had been begun; work on the new steam and electric locomotive depot at Darnall, Sheffield—the first of its kind in the country—was well advanced...

 

[jfollows]

I've just done a flyby on Google Earth, 53°28'28.57"N 2° 6'47.21"W (+/-)

There look to be masts to the south of the current lines, is that where the old fast lines were?

Is the current pair of lines just the northern ones (slow/goods lines) or were they just realigned completely at some stage?

In general, the current pair of lines is on the south side of the formation, where the old main or fast lines were. I don't think there's been realignment except probably in the Guide Bridge area, and even there not very much.
Ardwick station was realigned in the 1970s, to shift the up line to the island platform, its platform used to be very small and the island was originally between two down lines.

 

[AM9]

When was installation of the structures necessary to support the 1500v lines commenced?

Presumably the 1930's, so some of the supports might now be 85+ years old.

Below is one of a number of (very similar) various contemporary newspaper sources from December 1939 suggesting that several miles of electrification-related work had already been undertaken, (before work was suspended due to the onset of WW2).

Extract...

I think that the civils and Steelwork were started in 1936 largely completed by the outbreak of WW2, but the requirement of metals for the war effort would have completely ruled out any wiring, especially with copper/cadmium alloys required for the contact wire. The contract for the OLE on the LTS/GEML routes was let in 1939 to BICC. Presumably the Woodhead line contract was very similar. It makes very interesting reading, - I wonder whether anybody here familiar with modern 25kV contracts would have opinions on how technical requirements have changed, including aspects such as FoS of structure strength. The contract can be viewed here.

 

[jfollows]

FoS? Sorry, its meaning isn’t obvious to me!

 

[AM9]

FoS? Sorry, its meaning isn’t obvious to me!

Sorry, FoS = factor of safety, specifically I was alerted by the required FoS > 3 for the OLE support structures. No wonder they are so substantial when they are supporting fixed tension wiring!
According to the requirements, the total weight per mile of track's OLE wiring was over 7.3 tons, and the conductor wiring maximum tension at 60 deg F was over 1.3tons. Thus the supports were specified to handle the lateral forces of the staggered wiring and it's deadweight, which would be far higher than any modern OLE which is usually as lightweight as possible.

 

[Springs Branch]

. . . This is very noticeable east of Guide Bridge where the line to Stalybridge is slowly being electrified, the shiny new equipment on one side and the massive iron contraptions heading towards Hadfield. I presume this is original equipment from the Woodhead line electrification programme?

Regarding the OP's observations travelling east out of Guide Bridge, IIRC there's a particular section between Guide Bridge and around Hyde Junction where the original 1500V support gantries were constructed to a very substantial design where they would have spanned multiple running lines, plus a goods loop or two back in the day (the busy Dewsnap Sidings were hereabouts)

Quite likely these were specified and designed during the 1930s (before Woodhead electrification halted during WW2) to the battleship-like standards of railway infrastructure of the time, and without the benefit of experience in how main line OLE performed in real-world situations.

The Google Street View car's camera managed to peek over the bridge parapets at both Astley Street . . .

Google Maps

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and King Street bridges . . .

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Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

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A quick zoom and swivel shows the rather neglected appearance of the old gantries in the area. There's lots of ironmongery on there to get rusty and it's quite visible when it does - which may have inspired the OP to start this thread.

To be fair, it wasn't just the Woodhead 1500V DC infrastructure which was 'built to last'. When the line between Piccadilly and Stockport was electrified at the end of the 1950s, the multiple-track overhead portals south through Ardwick Jn, Longsight and on to Heaton Norris were also very substantial, considering these were designed to support the lighter 25kV AC catenary.

It was quite noticeable that as the WCML electrification progressed south through the 1960s, the overhead structure designs became lighter and more elegant. (Of course, this evolution ended up with the minimalist 1970s & 80s headspan arrangement on multiple track, which is prone to 'deconstruct' in the event of an errant pantograph or strong wind)

 

[AM9]

To be fair, it wasn't just the Woodhead 1500V DC infrastructure which was 'built to last'. When the line between Piccadilly and Stockport was electrified at the end of the 1950s, the multiple-track overhead portals south through Ardwick Jn, Longsight and on to Heaton Norris were also very substantial, considering these were designed to support the lighter 25kV AC catenary.

It was quite noticeable that as the WCML electrification progressed south through the 1960s, the overhead structure designs became lighter and more elegant. (Of course, this evolution ended up with the minimalist 1970s & 80s headspan arrangement on multiple track, which is prone to 'deconstruct' in the event of an errant pantograph or strong wind)

To be fair, the earliest supports used on the new OLE for the 1958 25kV electrification from Chelmsford to Clacton/Walton, were quite substantial as well, even though they were only carrying 100mph wiring only for passenger service, (i.e. no electrically hauled freight), - I think that this was a common desgn derived for the schemes created by the 1955 modernisation plan.

 

[Beebman]

I think that the civils and Steelwork were started in 1936 largely completed by the outbreak of WW2, but the requirement of metals for the war effort would have completely ruled out any wiring, especially with copper/cadmium alloys required for the contact wire.

The following link has a photo (dated simply as 'wartime') of LNER A1 4470 'Great Northern' passing Woodhead Reservoir beneath unwired portal structures:

https://pjbrailwayphotos.piwigo.com/picture?/27810/

 

[edwin_m]

In general, the current pair of lines is on the south side of the formation, where the old main or fast lines were. I don't think there's been realignment except probably in the Guide Bridge area, and even there not very much.
Ardwick station was realigned in the 1970s, to shift the up line to the island platform, its platform used to be very small and the island was originally between two down lines.

The tracks that still exist at Guide Bridge were the northern pair - the former southern ones were very obvious last time I visited but may now have been obliterated by a car park. They are slewed across to the south just west of the junction with the Denton line, and remain on that side all the way to Ashburys.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

The formation of the southern pair of tracks at Guide Bridge is now part of the car park - and the large station building (which housed the erstwhile Guide Bridge Area Manager) long gone. When Woodhead closed the northern pair of tracks were removed - the platforms having been taken out of use in the '70s rationalisation. In 1990, with the diversion of TPE service to Piccadilly, both the track and platforms of the northern pair were reinstated to give a straighter alignment and the southern pair were closed instead.

 

[billh]

The formation of the southern pair of tracks at Guide Bridge is now part of the car park - and the large station building (which housed the erstwhile Guide Bridge Area Manager) long gone. When Woodhead closed the northern pair of tracks were removed - the platforms having been taken out of use in the '70s rationalisation. In 1990, with the diversion of TPE service to Piccadilly, both the track and platforms of the northern pair were reinstated to give a straighter alignment and the southern pair were closed instead.

I'm pretty sure the platforms now in use were re-commissioned at the end of 1984 when the overhead was converted to 25kV AC. There was a two week closure of the station when the main lines were slewed into what had been platforms 1 &2 and 3&4 were abandoned. The last DC class506 EMU service was on 7/12/84 . i hope I've got this right!

 

[Springs Branch]

According to the requirements, the total weight per mile of track's OLE wiring was over 7.3 tons, and the conductor wiring maximum tension at 60 deg F was over 1.3tons.

I once read that following closure east of Hadfield, when the remaining 1500V DC section from Manchester was converted to 25kV around 1984, the cost of conversion to AC was more-or-less paid for by the value of the huge amount of scrap copper and other metals recovered from the DC catenary.

I've also seen this story described as an urban myth - unfortunately can't recall the exact sources.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Another source that I've found (= "An Illustrated History of the Woodhead Route" by Alan Whitehouse (2010) (Ian Allan/OPC book)) suggests that the length of the Longdendale valley was possibly where the first gantries were erected, either in late 1938 or early 1939, although the precise date is "uncertain".

Obviously, the line east of Hadfield is now long gone, but it's quite possible that some of the overhead structures in the vicinity of Hadfield station, heading back towards Manchester dates back to the late 1930's.

He also mentions that when the electrification project resumed after WW2, a bewildering array of overhead support structures were used, as special designs were needed in areas prone to subsidence, and 'lattice towers' were required where the line was four track.

Whitehouse also speculates that the Woodhead line might possibly have been used as a 'shop window' by the railway to showcase the variety of overhead catenary structures that could be made available (for, if and when, other projects elsewhere got the 'go ahead').

 

[Beebman]

I've just been looking at my copy of 'Woodhead - The Electric Railway' by E.M. Johnson, published by Foxline in 2001. That also says that work was carried out pre-war in the Longdendale Valley. There's no pre-war photos but there is one taken at Crowden in April 1947 showing unwired structures (the caption says that work resumed post-war in August of that year). There's also a photo with unwired structures taken at Hattersley in 1951, the caption states that they were erected along this section before the outbreak of the war.

I've seen photos elsewhere of unwired structures at the western end of the old Woodhead Tunnels and indeed this book has 3 pictures, 2 dated 1950 and one undated.

Later in the book there's a photo of the 'lattice towers' used at Wath Yard.

 

[QueensCurve]

I had several journeys on this line in the past week, and I noticed that the overhead gantries look almost ancient. This is very noticeable east of Guide Bridge where the line to Stalybridge is slowly being electrified, the shiny new equipment on one side and the massive iron contraptions heading towards Hadfield. I presume this is original equipment from the Woodhead line electrification programme?

There's also some gantries where only half of the formation is wired up (particularly between Ashfields and Guide Bridge. I presume once again this is a legacy of the Woodhead line being descoped and closed east of Hadfield?

Yes. The OHLE was part of the Manchester Sheffield and Wath 1500V electrification. The insulators were upgraded for 25KV in the mid 1980s but, to the best of my knowledge, the contact wire is the original.

Last time I looked at Manchester Pecadillo the contact wires on Platforms 1-4 were still noticably thicker than the other platforms.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

headshunt for the yards at Guide Bridge.

Was that called Dewsnap sidings?

 

[AM9]

Yes. The OHLE was part of the Manchester Sheffield and Wath 1500V electrification. The insulators were upgraded for 25KV in the mid 1980s but, to the best of my knowledge, the contact wire is the original.

Last time I looked at Manchester Pecadillo the contact wires on Platforms 1-4 were still noticably thicker than the other platforms.

In the pictures of the Woodhead line OLE the insulators look exactly the same single disc types as those used on the GEML. The insulated wiring was required to be proof for 3000v ac for 15 minutes so i presume that the insulators had a similar requirement. When the line voltages were inceased to 6.25kV ac, with which would have exposed them to over 9kV peak), they were by and large retained, only to be finally replaced when the whole route was upgraded to the full 25kV.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Was that called Dewsnap sidings?

The fairly extensive Dewsnap Sidings were located to the East of Guide Bridge station, a little beyond where the line for Stalybridge/Huddersfield branches off.

It was on the left hand side (between Guide Bridge East Junction and Hyde Junction) if travelling Eastwards to what's now Flowery Field / Newton for Hyde / Hyde North stations.