Manchester - London on TfW and LMR

[erk]

The super offpeak return from Manchester to London on TfW and LMR only has a niche following, as a walk-up ticket at only £23.95 (with railcard). The restrictions include "Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 10:30..." Since the last timetable change, a TfW service is scheduled leave Manchester at 10.30 instead of 10.31. I would have thought a 1030 train was not "before 10.30". But the unpublished restrictions state "NOT VALID TO DEPART MANCHESTER PICCADILLY 0430 - 1030", and booking sites now don't offer this train and ticket combination.

How should the restriction be interpreted? And is this change, effectively making the first available train an hour later, deliberate?

 

[JonathanH]

How should the restriction be interpreted? And is this change, effectively making the first available train an hour later, deliberate?

It might make sense to contact TfW and ask them why the timetable change has not been reflected in the restrictions.

There is also the issue that despite the ticket apparently being valid from 1930 from Euston on the return, the unpublished restriction applies until 1946, the exact departure time of the last train from Euston on which a connection at Crewe on TfW to Manchester is possible

 

[Watershed]

The super offpeak return from Manchester to London on TfW and LMR only has a niche following, as a walk-up ticket at only £23.95 (with railcard). The restrictions include "Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly after 04:29 or before 10:30..." Since the last timetable change, a TfW service is scheduled leave Manchester at 10.30 instead of 10.31. I would have thought a 1030 train was not "before 10.30". But the unpublished restrictions state "NOT VALID TO DEPART MANCHESTER PICCADILLY 0430 - 1030", and booking sites now don't offer this train and ticket combination.

How should the restriction be interpreted? And is this change, effectively making the first available train an hour later, deliberate?

This isn't a deliberate change, it's just yet another example of the complete lack of integration and forethought in the industry. Evidently nobody in TfW's planning department saw fit to tell their or West Midlands Trains' pricing department that departures from Manchester are now generally at xx30 rather than the previous xx31, and thus many xx30 departures now unintentionally come under various time restrictions.

As the wording of this particular time restriction is "not before 10:30", the 10:30 service is indeed valid, but the electronic time restrictions prevent booking sites from offering this train in conjunction with the Super Off-Peak Return. Thus customers are, once again, overcharged!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Surely you just buy the Super Off Peak return product and travel on the 1030, or is that too simplistic?

 

[Deerfold]

Surely you just buy the Super Off Peak return product and travel on the 1030, or is that too simplistic?

If you know it's valid, you can. Most people would simply think it wasn't valid.

 

[Watershed]

Surely you just buy the Super Off Peak return product and travel on the 1030, or is that too simplistic?

That's exactly what you should do.

 

[infobleep]

Surely you just buy the Super Off Peak return product and travel on the 1030, or is that too simplistic?

So you go to a Web Site, as perhaps suggested by National Rail Enquiries, select the time you wish to travel, say 10:30 and buy the ticket? Is that what you are saying?

If the electronic restrictions say no, one wouldn't be able to buy the ticket.

I do accept there are workarounds if you know what those are.

 

[erk]

I was on the 11.30 from Manchester today. The passenger behind me asked the guard if he could have used his super off-peak ticket on the 10.30. The guard's response was no he couldn't. Using the ticket at 10.30 without an itinerary risks getting into a semantic discussion.

I have asked both TfW and WMR about this. I'll update if and when they respond.

 

[Hadders]

Expect to be fobbed off a couple of times before it gets to someone who actually understands the issue and can fix it but please do persist as this sort of thing is important.

 

[Watershed]

I was on the 11.30 from Manchester today. The passenger behind me asked the guard if he could have used his super off-peak ticket on the 10.30. The guard's response was no he couldn't. Using the ticket at 10.30 without an itinerary risks getting into a semantic discussion.

I have asked both TfW and WMR about this. I'll update if and when they respond.

I don't think there's any semantic discussion needed when the link to the restriction code wording is printed on the ticket. It's very quick and easy to look that up.

 

[kieron]

Evidently nobody in TfW's planning department saw fit to tell their or West Midlands Trains' pricing department that departures from Manchester are now generally at xx30 rather than the previous xx31, and thus many xx30 departures now unintentionally come under various time restrictions.

It seems a bit unfair to me to blame any of this on the timetable planners. This seems like a really simple restriction. If it the text and the data for it had said the same thing, instead of each having a different set of start and end times, the timetable change would have made no difference.

 

[Watershed]

It seems a bit unfair to me to blame any of this on the timetable planners. This seems like a really simple restriction. If it the text and the data for it had said the same thing, instead of each having a different set of start and end times, the timetable change would have made no difference.

Retiming a clockface service is exactly the sort of area where a sensible, well-integrated operator would ensure proper communication between departments so that customers aren't inconvenienced or overcharged. I'm not blaming any one individual but it speaks volumes about rail industry culture that these sorts of things don't happen on a routine basis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Retiming a clockface service is exactly the sort of area where a sensible, well-integrated operator would ensure proper communication between departments so that customers aren't inconvenienced or overcharged. I'm not blaming any one individual but it speaks volumes about rail industry culture that these sorts of things don't happen on a routine basis.

This is the same LNR that have those "a connection may be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" notes on the restrictions, which can't be implemented on the planners. With this being the case they've been overcharging people via the planners for 20 odd years anyway, though the staff know about it and do accept them.

 

[Krokodil]

I've just checked the restriction on STAR Mobile and it states "valid on trains departing from 10:31 to..."

That does rather contradict NRE which says "Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly ... before 10:30" which I would read as "up to but not including 10:30".

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I've just checked the restriction on STAR Mobile and it states "valid on trains departing from 10:31 to..."

That does rather contradict NRE which says "Not valid on trains timed to depart Manchester Piccadilly ... before 10:30" which I would read as "up to but not including 10:30".

Which is the nub of the problem if you can't rely on what the National Rail Enquiries website says.

Tickets, Railcards and Offers | National Rail

The gateway to Britain's National Rail network. A portal into UK rail travel including train company information and promotions; train times; fares enquiries; ticket purchase and train running information

www.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[erk]

An update...

I wrote to both Transport for Wales and London Northwestern. TfW asked for more information, then replied that they were not the fare setter (true enough) and I should ask LNR.

LNR have not replied yet, apart from an acknowledgement. Early days yet, it's only been five weeks.

However, I notice that booking engines do now allow travel on the 10.30 from Manchester. The published restriction hasn't changed, but the "Unpublished restrictions" are now "Not valid to depart Manchester Piccadilly 0430 - 1029" (previously 1030). So it looks like the change was an oversight and someone somewhere has taken action.

 

[Rover]

However, I notice that booking engines do now allow travel on the 10.30 from Manchester. The published restriction hasn't changed, but the "Unpublished restrictions" are now "Not valid to depart Manchester Piccadilly 0430 - 1029" (previously 1030). So it looks like the change was an oversight and someone somewhere has taken action.

Perhaps they've been reading this forum?

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah sounds to me like this ticket is certainly valid on this train now so you should have no (little) issues using it (if a member of staff questions it, you can show either the itinerary on a journey planner or the restriction code)

 

[JonathanH]

Super off peak fare increases by 7.9% today, ie 2% more than the standard increase of 5.9%, and rounded up.

£39.20 up from £36.30.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Is it only available on. TFW website?

 

[JonathanH]

Is it only available on. TFW website?

No, available on all booking engines. However, it might not be immediately apparent as the initial search will find quicker trains.

The forums own site will allow operators to be excluded which should then allow the ticket to be found.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Thanks tried Avanti TfW and LNWR.. doesn't come up!

 

[td97]

Thanks tried Avanti TfW and LNWR.. doesn't come up!

Set Atherstone as the via station

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Computer says no!

 

[Watershed]

Most sites will not be able to come up with itineraries because the official connections at Crewe at quite poor if you stick to TfW and LNR. In practice you'll generally save an hour compared to the advertised itinerary in the southbound direction (it's a ~5 minute connection and the TfW service is almost always given priority over the LNR, so easily doable).

You may have to select "see all fares" or similar to manually select the TfW & LNR only fare.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Finally!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was going to say the answer is to buy from Stockport and travel from there, but the WMT/TfW fare is not available from there (or from Wilmslow).
There isn''t even an equivalent WMT/TfW fare from Chester, either, which you would think would be an obvious non-Avanti option, matching the Liverpool/Manchester offers.
The only discounted route from Chester to London is on the slow Chiltern route via High Wycombe and involving a change of station en route.
That ticket might put you on a WMT train between Crewe and Birmingham, but there is no cheap option to use WMT all the way.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

So I used Rail UK forums own ticket site
Excluded Avanti/Northern and added Crewe as place to change and got the result!

Couldn't get on any other site....

 

[JonathanH]

Couldn't get on any other site....

It is possible on the Mixing Deck site used by GWR - you first search for London to Manchester, then search slower routes, which is an option in the bottom left corner of the journey planning inputs. Select LNR + TFW only.

 

[_toommm_]

It is possible on the Mixing Deck site used by GWR - you first search for London to Manchester, then search slower routes, which is an option in the bottom left corner of the journey planning inputs. Select LNR + TFW only.

Here’s a link to such a website for the OP:

MixingDeck