Manchester Metrolink - Speculative ideas on how to improve it?

[Tetchytyke]

Merseyrail has been able to cut Northern services short from Liverpool Centre at Headbolt lane, could this be done with the Knutsford Line at Altrincham? The journey time from there via Metrolink into the centre is pretty similar to Northern via Stockport into Piccadilly.

It could be done. Before December 2008 it was done on Sundays, with the Sunday service only running between Chester and Altrincham. Rail tickets were valid for use on Sundays only on Metrolink from Altrincham to Manchester.

But there's also a good reason why the rail user group for the line campaigned long and hard to get the Sunday service reinstated between Manchester and Altrincham.

1. The roughly 100,000 residents living in close proximity of the line between Altrincham and Stockport who don’t have any station.
2. Those currently trying to make the journey between the two towns who have the choice of an hours wait for the train or a roughly 80 minute bus journey. It’s an 8 mile, 25 minute drive. No surprise the M60 is so congested, those who can drive will

Gatley station is half a mile from the village centre of Cheadle. Further south you also have Heald Green and Cheadle Hulme stations, to the west you have Metrolink at Wythenshawe and Baguley.

My wife likes to spend her money at John Lewis in Cheadle when we are in Manchester and it really isn't a hard place to get to on public transport.

Is there a great untapped demand for people in Altrincham to go to Stockport, or vice versa, that isn't catered for by the hourly train (which has extras at peak times to/from Stockport) and/or the 370/371 buses which are every 30 minutes and take less than an hour?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Re-opening the long-closed Cheadle High Level station would be worthwhile to provide a direct rail service to Manchester, as there is no alternative rail service and bus services south of Parrs Wood have been curtailed massively over the last 50 years since the demise of the North Western Road Car Company.

From Cheadle town centre, is it not the case that the 42B (Woodford) service and the 42C (Handforth Dean) service both run to Manchester Piccadilly bus station?

 

[daodao]

From Cheadle town centre, is it not the case that the 42B (Woodford) service and the 42C (Handforth Dean) service both run to Manchester Piccadilly bus station?

Routes 42B and 42C provide a half-hourly daytime service Mon-Sat from Cheadle to Manchester city centre, which is a very poor service compared to the 1960s, when there were 15 buses per hour (Mon-Fri daytime), with additional buses at peak hours. The services were, with Mon-Fri daytime frequencies in brackets: 29/30/52 (combined every 15 minutes), 31 (half-hourly), 32 (half-hourly), 51 (hourly), 74 (half-hourly) and 161 (4 buses per hour). However, public transport services from the city centre as far as Parrs Wood remain relatively frequent, with Metrolink (every 6 minutes) and bus routes 42/42A/42B/42C (every 10 minutes), 50 (every 12 minutes) and 142 (every 10 minutes).

 

[507 001]

To my knowledge there is:-

Between Newhey and Milnrow (under M62 bridge).
Between Shaw and Derker following the landslip.
Near Monsall stop.
Smedley Viaduct (or just after it close to the junction with the Bury line).

Have I missed any?

What is supposed to be happening with the new timetable, are you able to elaborate?

Your list is a fair bit out of date, some of those have been removed.

As well as the ones in the city centre that affect everything, there’s;

-Monsall station, IB (10mph) and OB (5mph)
-Newton Heath and Moston IB and OB (10mph).
-Derker-Shaw IB and OB (originally 10mph but now 20mph).

The Monsall and Newton Heath ones are causing the most disruption. Monsall means you arrive at the single line section late, and then the Newton Heath one means it takes a considerable amount of time longer to get through the single line so everything backs up. Once a set is delayed, it then misses its path through the other two single line sections and it all just snowballs.

Add in TSRs at Victoria and DCF and you just have a recipe for a nightmare. The Derker one by contrast isn’t causing too much of an issue.

The new timetable will extend the run times from EDD-RTC by adding in two extra sets. Less than ideal but hopefully better for staff and passengers.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Incorrect. The ORL is suffering at the moment due to a number of disruptive TSRs. This is obviously playing havoc with with the SML frequency.

You use a LOT of abbreviations in this chat, sorry, what is a TSR?
Edit: Tram speed restrictions ofc.

 

[DanNCL]

You use a LOT of abbreviations in this chat, sorry, what is a TSR?
Edit: Tram speed restrictions ofc.

Temporary speed restriction.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

At afternoon school decampment time, wouldn't it be wonderful if the tram services in certain areas made true the old adage..."Children should be seen and not heard".

 

[Par]

Your list is a fair bit out of date, some of those have been removed.

As well as the ones in the city centre that affect everything, there’s;

-Monsall station, IB (10mph) and OB (5mph)
-Newton Heath and Moston IB and OB (10mph).
-Derker-Shaw IB and OB (originally 10mph but now 20mph).

The Monsall and Newton Heath ones are causing the most disruption. Monsall means you arrive at the single line section late, and then the Newton Heath one means it takes a considerable amount of time longer to get through the single line so everything backs up. Once a set is delayed, it then misses its path through the other two single line sections and it all just snowballs.

Add in TSRs at Victoria and DCF and you just have a recipe for a nightmare. The Derker one by contrast isn’t causing too much of an issue.

The new timetable will extend the run times from EDD-RTC by adding in two extra sets. Less than ideal but hopefully better for staff and passengers.

Thanks, very informative.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Deleted

 

[Fazaar1889]

I keep seeing on twitter that there should be a tunnel in the city centre for the Manchester trams. Where should this be and how would it help?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Preferanly away from the rail tunnel Manchester also wants

 

[Vespa]

The was a proposal for a"Picc Vic" tunnel scheme connecting Manchester Victoria to Manchester Piccadilly, a feasibility study have found it too expensive and not proceeded with until the Metrolink proposal connecting two separate lines with a city centre link.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Something like this:

It has to avoid certain other underground structures, like the top secret 'Guardian' telephone exchange.

[graphic shows the proposed PICC-VIC line running indirectly between the two stations, close to Manchester Central station]

 

[Topological]

Any tunnel is likely to be built for higher capacity than trams, most likely on an east-west axis to ease Castlefield and crossings of the Piccadilly throat.

Seemingly more likely is that the NPR route will take Liverpool to Manchester fast trains from the Castlefield corridor and potentially also the fast trains from the Chat Moss. That will mean there is sufficient capacity for metro services on the existing rail infrastructure.

Thankfully, the PICC-VIC line was not the only thing that appears on the map @Baxenden Bank posted that was never built. The inner motorway also failed to materialise beyond the short section of Mancunian-Way. That North-East section would have created a very different Manchester from the one we see today.

 

[TheGrew]

I was thinking again about potential lines and was thinking about major bus corridors that could be decarbonized through trams. An idea I quite like and I think would be well patronized would be:
Robinswood Road (Terminating Platform added) -> Benchill -> New Junction -> Brownley Road -> Intersect M56 Junction with Tunnel -> Sharston Road -> Longley Lane -> Palatine Road -> Wilmslow Road -> Oxford Road -> Oxford Street -> Peter Street -> Deansgate -> Bridge Street -> Chapel Street -> Crescent -> Cross Lane -> Churchhill Way -> Heywood Way -> Fitzwarren Street -> Seedley Road -> Langworthy Road -> Bolton Road -> intersect A580 with Bridge -> Manchester Road -> Worsley Road -> Roe Green Loop Line (Off Street Running) -> Tyldesley Loopline -> Leigh Guided Busway

I would seek to put stations and sensible interchange points and landmarks on the route.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Would it not be better to put a hold on all future development of the system, until the seemingly never-ending problems that affect the existing system are sorted out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Would it not be better to put a hold on all future development of the system, until the seemingly never-ending problems that affect the existing system are sorted out.

What problems are those? The system is popular and considerably more reliable than the Northern local services!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What problems are those? The system is popular and considerably more reliable than the Northern local services!

Having kept a weather-eye on matters affecting the system for many years, such as the recent track problem that affected tram entrance to Manchester Victoria and going back years when Cornbrook achieved notoriety in track matters, I am sure that my eyes have not deceived me. Which Northern Trains heavy-rail services that serve exactly the same area as the Manchester Metrolink light rail services are you making reference to in terms of comparison?

Perhaps there are others on this thread who may wish to comment on what you have said.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having kept a weather-eye on matters affecting the system for many years, such as the recent track problem that affected tram entrance to Manchester Victoria and going back years when Cornbrook achieved notoriety in track matters, I am sure that my eyes have not deceived me. Which Northern Trains heavy-rail services that serve exactly the same area as the Manchester Metrolink light rail services are you making reference to in terms of comparison?

The sensible comparisons for Northern are the Manchester area local services such as the Hadfields, Athertons and Marples, but to be honest the whole of Northern has been a woeful mess for a very long time.

 

[biggerisbetter]

The sensible comparisons for Northern are the Manchester area local services such as the Hadfields, Athertons and Marples, but to be honest the whole of Northern has been a woeful mess for a very long time.

As someone who currently lives in Wigan and travels regularly into Manchester but used to live on a Metrolink route, I can confirm that my experience of travelling by Metrolink was much more reliable than my current experience of travelling by Northern Trains. This is to the extent that I am looking to move back closer to Manchester to somewhere served by Metrolink as the rail services are too unreliable.

 

[507 001]

To be fair, the system does need a fair bit of investment before any thoughts turn to extensions.

None of it is getting any younger, and it’s starting to show.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who currently lives in Wigan and travels regularly into Manchester but used to live on a Metrolink route, I can confirm that my experience of travelling by Metrolink was much more reliable than my current experience of travelling by Northern Trains. This is to the extent that I am looking to move back closer to Manchester to somewhere served by Metrolink as the rail services are too unreliable.

Presumably then you'd be a fan of the idea of the Atherton Line being converted (something I personally very strongly support)?

 

[MarkyT]

Would it not be better to put a hold on all future development of the system, until the seemingly never-ending problems that affect the existing system are sorted out.

It could be that some developments are the key to sorting out perceived problems. A new branch in from the west could be what justifies additional tracks into the centre from that direction. The Cornwood section is probably at or approaching capacity today. Metrolink might lengthen trains to boost passenger capacity on the same number of services but that would be difficult with street-running sections and require much work on platforms elsewhere, and more rolling stock.

 

[The exile]

Nobody would benefit except
1. The roughly 100,000 residents living in close proximity of the line between Altrincham and Stockport who don’t have any station.
2. Those currently trying to make the journey between the two towns who have the choice of an hours wait for the train or a roughly 80 minute bus journey. It’s an 8 mile, 25 minute drive. No surprise the M60 is so congested, those who can drive will.
3. Drivers on the M60 who will benefit from reduced congestion as a feasible public transport alternative becomes available.

This is a lot of people before we include the potential opportunity to also increase frequency on the remainder of the Mid-Cheshire line

I was commenting purely on truncating Mid-Cheshire trains at Altrincham. IIRC no mention was made of any changes north of there. If conversion of the line to Stockport to Metrolink had been part of the equation my reaction would have been different.

Given an orchard of magic money trees I would be looking to eliminate all single points of failure inward of junctions between branches (mainly Piccadilly -Victoria -Cornbrook)- ie a large expansion of the city centre network.

 

[Ethano92]

Is there a great untapped demand for people in Altrincham to go to Stockport, or vice versa, that isn't catered for by the hourly train (which has extras at peak times to/from Stockport) and/or the 370/371 buses which are every 30 minutes and take less than an hour?

The answer is yes, there is demand to go between the two, the areas in between the two, and the extensive onward connections available from the two (more notable Stockport).

Congestion on the southern side of the M60 shows that an hourly 2/4 car DMU or bus which takes at least double the time as by car even during off peak times has, unsurprisingly, not managed to encourage modal shift.

I was commenting purely on truncating Mid-Cheshire trains at Altrincham. IIRC no mention was made of any changes north of there. If conversion of the line to Stockport to Metrolink had been part of the equation my reaction would have been different.

Given an orchard of magic money trees I would be looking to eliminate all single points of failure inward of junctions between branches (mainly Piccadilly -Victoria -Cornbrook)- ie a large expansion of the city centre network.

I had mentioned conversion to metrolink originally. Although some wish to ignore Manchester’s traffic and suggest there isn’t demand, I suppose TfGM have already recognised the opportunities with the suggestion tram-trains could run on the line as well as a Stockport-Airport and Altrincham-Airport route, branching off at Baguley and using the (eventually) completed airport loop via Davenport Green. My suggestion was just making the line tram altogether, also removing the need for the single track section along Navigation Road stop which if I remember correctly is the reason the entire network runs off 12 minute headways rather than 10.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Congestion on the southern side of the M60 shows that an hourly 2/4 car DMU or bus which takes at least double the time as by car even during off peak times has, unsurprisingly, not managed to encourage modal shift.

I’m well aware of the congestion on the M60. A brief look at Google Maps shows the congestion is between the M67 and the M56. Almost as though most of the traffic is coming from north and east of Stockport and heading towards Manchester Airport and into north Cheshire.

I’m still struggling to see how that’s indicative of a massive untapped public transport demand between Altrincham and Stockport?

 

[Howardh]

South of Bolton (W Farnworth/Highfield/Little Hulton) is appallingly served by trains and trams - ie. there are none. I hoped with the electrification of the Wigan - Salford Crescent line via Atherton there might be a new station @ Little Hulton; but had that line not been electrified it could have become part of the metrolink (although running on the current heavy rail line south of Salford Crescent - improbable?) with a loop off towards Highfield - maybe as far as Plodder Lane; even the hospital would go some way to filling that gap.

The old line is still available to Monton, where I suppose there could be a tunnel to Eccles (£££'s) or road-running (congestion) but right now I think locals would accept a guided bus to link with the V1/2 network. But as for extending the trams, it takes so long now to get from Eccles to the centre by tram, to Farnworth would double the time roughly, so better off a bus to Bolton and the train? Of course many pax wouldn't necessarily need to travel to the city centre, possibly to the Trafford Centre by bus from Eccles?

Could the trams eventually go from Eccles via Barton Lane to meet up with the Trafford Centre line?

 

[HSTEd]

South of Bolton (W Farnworth/Highfield/Little Hulton) is appallingly served by trains and trams - ie. there are none. I hoped with the electrification of the Wigan - Salford Crescent line via Atherton there might be a new station @ Little Hulton; but had that line not been electrified it could have become part of the metrolink (although running on the current heavy rail line south of Salford Crescent - improbable?)

The line via Atherton has not been electrified.
THe line that has been electrified is via Bolton and Westhoughton.

As for running on the heavy rail line, you'd almost certainly build a new tramway from Salford Crescent into the centre of Manchester.

That heavy rail electrification has created an annoying problem for any future conversion of the Atherton line, as no easy route is really available into Wigan although I believe the formation is wide enough for four tracks, at least some of the way.

 

[Howardh]

The line via Atherton has not been electrified.
THe line that has been electrified is via Bolton and Westhoughton.

As for running on the heavy rail line, you'd almost certainly build a new tramway from Salford Crescent into the centre of Manchester.

That heavy rail electrification has created an annoying problem for any future conversion of the Atherton line, as no easy route is really available into Wigan although I believe the formation is wide enough for four tracks, at least some of the way.

Thought it had been/was being done! Seems a bit pointless doing it via Westhoughton when wires end at Wigan, the bimodes change at Bolton so to get to Southport they would have to change at Wigan - unless Wigan/Bolton/MCV/Stalybridge will be the planned route?

 

[biggerisbetter]

Presumably then you'd be a fan of the idea of the Atherton Line being converted (something I personally very strongly support)?

100%.

Whilst the fastest headline journey times might increase slightly (the 23:03 from Victoria to Wallgate often takes less than half an hour and I also regularly use the peak services from North Western to Victoria via Eccles that usually only take just over half an hour) the benefits of a tram conversion of the Atherton line would be:

1. Release of rail paths into central Manchester allowing increased frequencies elsewhere and/or greater reliability of retained services
2. Introduction of new stops to increase public transport coverage (I would have additional stops along the line at Pendleton, Pendlebury, Mort Lane and Dobb Brow which could not be provided for heavy rail without increasing journey times and would be unattractive in Pendleton and Pendlebury without turn up and go frequencies)
3. Greater accessibility of the network for those with limited mobility
4. Improved city centre penetration reducing walking distances to final destinations (not a concern for me as I enjoy walking but again a benefit to those with limited mobility)
5. Likely greater consistency of city centre stops / stations served
6. Improved frequencies which combined with No. 5 negating or significantly reducing the need for a timetable
7. Assuming a similar level of success as existing Metrolink lines, removal of the need operating subsidy

The greater acceleration of trams combined with increased frequency, significantly reduced dwell times (facilitated by DOO and level boarding) and better city centre penetration would mean that end to end journey times would not alter materially from the present but with all of the benefits above. Loss of tables on some services and toilets would be a downside but for me, outweighed by the benefits and would likely remain from the stations with the longer journey times in any event (Wigan and Hindley).

One of the things that frustrates me most at present about the train compared to using Metrolink in the past is the uncertainty and unreliability. Say I am in the Northern Quarter and wishing to travel to Wigan, I check the times and see that the next train is at from Oxford Road in 15 minutes but that's too far to reliably walk in that time, so the train after is from Victoria but is cancelled so you have to wait for the next one. As a result the effective service is reduced and you have to plan around the timetable. With the Metrolink you know to head to the same stop each time and that even off-peak the average wait will be around 6 minutes without having to consult a timetable. Might seem a minor thing but it means having to keep an eye on the trains all evening and often leave early.