It's been a very limited service to Glasgow since Covid started. Back to hourly, alternating between Glasgow and Edinburgh as pre-Covid, from December.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Manchester Piccadilly P13/14 PIS
- Thread starter LNW-GW Joint
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Some have been starting at Preston during Covid reductions, similarly with TPE towards Leeds/York starting at Victoria rather than Man Airport.
Afaict most of the TFW trains from Chester run to Manchester Airport nowadays and the one that doesn't runs Empty coaching stock to the Mayfield loop and then reverses into the main shed rather than reversing in 13.
There does seem to be one early morning train that arrives empty coaching stock into 13 from the south and then leaves again also to the south, wonder why it doesn;t use the main shed?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Interesting, I thought they always used the Mayfield reversing siding? Every rule needs an exception, though, and for most destinations served from 14 they will depart 14 99% of the time, to the point that like commuters from Euston people will often go to the booked platform without even looking.
That would seem a perfect use for the mostly useless P12!
Mostly but not always.
It's happened to me before - I've missed trains from 14 because I didn't realise that they'd been moved to 13!
It's the morning Crewe-Piccadilly ECS, which has a variety of Q paths that can be activated depending on the route to be taken. One of those is via the WCML up to Warrington and then across the Chat Moss, which of course ends up with the train arriving into 13. Therefore the next working is planned to run out of 13, and all the other Q paths are planned to end up at 13.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
ATW/TfW have always had the capability to link the Marches and North Wales diagrams using stock based at Chester, and this will no doubt continue with 197s.
They have also at times worked Marches services via Warrington BQ into Oxford Road and reversed there.
That's on top of workings via Northwich to maintain diversion competence.
It's a while back now, but the peak North Wales extra used to extend to Stockport to terminate in the bay there.
It looks like currently platform 12 mostly serves as a place for nothern to park an EMU between the morning and evening rush hours.That would seem a perfect use for the mostly useless P12!
Whether that is "mostly useless" is I guess a matter of opinion, I would say having a spare EMU in the station rather than parked up in a siding somewhere is useful if there are problems with a unit.
As someone involved in the design and specification of stations from a customer experience perspective (and therefore CIS), I struggle with those new boards.
It has already been mentioned here that the screens read L>R and then R>L for the two platforms and this is not immediately clear, indeed I, an experienced railway professional stood scratching my head for a couple of minutes before I figured it out. Granted, when there are all three colours in the board it makes sense, but at some times of the day, when every train is pink, it makes no sense unless you know.
I also have to question how accessible the screens are - they are unbelievably bright and the pixel density doesn’t help because the closer you get, the less clear it is.
I have no doubt that it is possible to improve this product with some software changes, but that’s irrelevant without doing further work to the woefully lacking CIS at platform level.
On the basis that I know some of the detail around how the idea was conceptualised, I’d consider it another in a long line of Manchester Piccadilly vanity projects to try to find an “innovative” solution to managing customers at Platform 13 and 14
It has already been mentioned here that the screens read L>R and then R>L for the two platforms and this is not immediately clear, indeed I, an experienced railway professional stood scratching my head for a couple of minutes before I figured it out. Granted, when there are all three colours in the board it makes sense, but at some times of the day, when every train is pink, it makes no sense unless you know.
I also have to question how accessible the screens are - they are unbelievably bright and the pixel density doesn’t help because the closer you get, the less clear it is.
I have no doubt that it is possible to improve this product with some software changes, but that’s irrelevant without doing further work to the woefully lacking CIS at platform level.
On the basis that I know some of the detail around how the idea was conceptualised, I’d consider it another in a long line of Manchester Piccadilly vanity projects to try to find an “innovative” solution to managing customers at Platform 13 and 14
Zontar
Member
why do the majority of stations still have the old style orange pixel displays is this a network rail ownership thing?
Also slightly off topic, the display indicators on trains are the same, the new 195/6/7s all have this type of display, I'm sure someone can explain why these were still chosen when there's better technology available?
Also slightly off topic, the display indicators on trains are the same, the new 195/6/7s all have this type of display, I'm sure someone can explain why these were still chosen when there's better technology available?
Define 'better technology'? LED Dot-matrix displays on platforms perform incredibly well under direct sunlight, last longer than the TFT equivalents and are more durable when exposed to inclement weather. Whilst some operators (GA and WMR) have/are moving exclusively to TFT type displays on their platforms, a better approach is to use a combination of the two styles. All of the new station builds I'm working on will have TFTs in the main areas of the platform (where there is canopy so better protection from elements and sun glare) and then dot-matrix style at the platform ends. Worth noting that not all LED dot-matrix screens are made equal. There are various versions of the orange style, some better than others, but white, high density (so sharp text and images) are the new 'standard'.
Bringing this back on topic, Piccadilly needs to improve the quality of CIS provision at platform level as the current two banks of old style orange dot matrix do not give enough information, and particularly on Platform 13, cause a bottleneck around the bottom of the stairs. This will likely get picked up as part of works to improve the performance of trains through the Castlefield Corridor.
No. I was subsequently whipped by over zealous Network Rail staff as punishment.
I explained to the supervisor that the red line actually made the problem worse as it meant by pushing embarking passengers further back, it meant many alighting passengers opting to walk along the opposite platform edge. This was highly dangerous and on more than one occasion I saw running passengers nearly ending up falling on the track due to sudden movements by those in front of them. Basically, the red line just pushes alighting passengers to walking with their backs turned to oncoming trains on the along the opposite platform because the area behind the red line is packed with waiting passengers.
If a person on track or a death occurs I would have no hesitation in reporting my concerns to the investigation branch. The senior staff and their over-zealous merry men at Piccadilly may then be held to account over the 'red line' nonsense. Thankfully Covid and falling passenger numbers at peak hours has meant this is unlikely.
On the issue of PIS boards on platforms 13/14, I believe these have been in place for 18 months now.
Last edited:
lancededcena
Member
That's strange, in August this year, I was all over the place around platform 13/14 in Piccadilly (I haven't even noticed the PIS boards until day 3 of going there) whilst bashing and spotting and no one really cared that I was on the platform when I wasn't to get on a train (however I was situated in the far side of the platform).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Nobody cares if you go down early provided you don't even have your toes over the red line. I agree this is silly as it narrows the available platform area.
CAF397
Member
Hi. The ones being referred to? They were installed this year
Attachments
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Why does that display show access to a train leaving from (part of) Platform 14 as being via Platform 13?
Platforms 13/14 at Manchester Picadilly are numbered with the "front" (for normal direction running) of the platform where trains normally stop getting the plain number and the "rear" of the platform (again for normal direction running) getting the "B" suffix, there is no "A" suffix. So 14B is at the same end of the platform island as 13. and 13B is at the same end of the island as 14. The two ends of the platform island are normally* accessed by separate staircases.
The "B" ends are rarely used**, so adding specific displays for them would be overkill and I presume (needing to display them somehow) they decided to group the trains that are at the same end of the platform island and hence accessed via the same staircase.
* You can of course go down the wrong staircase and double-back along the platform and there is also a lift which drops you between the two staircases).
**Sometimes a train will stop in the rear end if the train in front is delayed and sometimes a train runs through the platform in the "wrong" direction (as in the testing picture posted by CAF397) leading to the front of the platform from it's perspective being the "B" end but both are unusual occurrences. Very occasionally (I've only seen it happen once) a train runs both wrong-direction and stops what is from it's perspective the rear (the one time I encountered this a manual announcement was made referring to "the train now standing at the .... stockport end of platform 13").
The "B" ends are rarely used**, so adding specific displays for them would be overkill and I presume (needing to display them somehow) they decided to group the trains that are at the same end of the platform island and hence accessed via the same staircase.
* You can of course go down the wrong staircase and double-back along the platform and there is also a lift which drops you between the two staircases).
**Sometimes a train will stop in the rear end if the train in front is delayed and sometimes a train runs through the platform in the "wrong" direction (as in the testing picture posted by CAF397) leading to the front of the platform from it's perspective being the "B" end but both are unusual occurrences. Very occasionally (I've only seen it happen once) a train runs both wrong-direction and stops what is from it's perspective the rear (the one time I encountered this a manual announcement was made referring to "the train now standing at the .... stockport end of platform 13").
Last edited:
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Aha - so the two staircases to the platform from that waiting area point towards different ends of the island platform, rather than accessing different sides of the island platform - I hadn't realised that. Presumably therefore there aren't many services that take up the full platform length there.
Indeed you can see the starcases/lifts on google maps "sattelite" photos.
I don't know the official railway lengths but a quick measure on google maps says the platforms are about 300m long, I suspect the usable length is a bit less.
The longer trains running through there include 5 car class 802s (about 130m), class 397s (about 118m) Mk5a sets (about 132m including the loco), doubled up 3 car class 331s (about 143m) and doubled up 185s (about 143m). I'm pretty sure that 3+4 combinations of class 331s (about 166m) were running on hazel grove to blackpool pre-covid, but I can't find any on a quick look at realtimetrains now. I vaguely recall the 4 cars may have moved over to the east side of northern's network. TPE used to run doubled up class 350s (about 163m) but they left some time ago.
I suspect some of the longer trains prevent use of the mid-platform signal to bring a second train into the "rear" part but the bulk of the train will still be in the "front" part.
Occasionally engineering works on the WCML lead to Pendolinos (which range from about 217m to 265m) stopping in 13/14. Those will fill up most of the platform but that is way too rare to be worth changing how the platforms are numbered.
Last edited:
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because it is clearly a mock-up, note also the train for Alderley Edge with portions to Leeds Airport (!) and Wrexham (Wrexham what?)
Virtually anything longer than a Pacer will prevent a second train from closing up by virtue of where the stop markers are placed.
They don't stop there any more. "Crowd control" issues allegedly.
Can’t speak for the whole platform scenario but platform 14 has had its stop markers moved forward. You can get 2x 3 carriage trains on both platforms with a mid-platform signal
Only in contingency circumstances, e.g. disruption, AFAIK. The (reduced) overlap of the mid-platform signal needs to be vacated for the preceding signal to clear.
CAF397
Member
The stop markers were moved forward to allow following trains to be signalled up to the mid platform signal. Definitely 3-cars allow this, as I've been staring at the tail lights of one whilst drawing up to the signal.
I can't remember exactly when, but the instruction recently changed for 13/14 when stopping at the mid-platform signals. Providing no door release has been operated, upon the clearance of the signal a train can restart to the correct stopping point without receiving the R/RA. If the train is required to perform station duties at the mid-platform signal then the signaller will advise the driver of this.
The instruction has always been that the driver/guard shouldn't release the doors at the mid platform signal without receiving the instruction to do so from the person in charge of the platform, and the mid platform signals aren't fitted with RA indicators anyway - the OFF/RA indicators are as far as I know only associated with the actual platform starting signals at the far end.
I'm not aware that you can give the R to the driver with only the mid platform signal off, I've been working through Man Picc 13/14 for years and it's just been a case of draw down by verbal instruction or hand signal from the platform staff. @Tomnick can probably confirm for me given I rarely see the actual process occur given I'm generally on the PA in the rear cab explaining why the doors haven't been released at the time
Leyland155
Member
- Joined
- 25 Jul 2016
- Messages
- 109
The mid-platform signals are fitted with RA indicators, I've witnessed them being used but it is quite rare! If a train has come to a stop at a mid-platform signal but has not released the doors, it can draw forward without requiring an RA.The instruction has always been that the driver/guard shouldn't release the doors at the mid platform signal without receiving the instruction to do so from the person in charge of the platform, and the mid platform signals aren't fitted with RA indicators anyway - the OFF/RA indicators are as far as I know only associated with the actual platform starting signals at the far end.
I'm not aware that you can give the R to the driver with only the mid platform signal off, I've been working through Man Picc 13/14 for years and it's just been a case of draw down by verbal instruction or hand signal from the platform staff. @Tomnick can probably confirm for me given I rarely see the actual process occur given I'm generally on the PA in the rear cab explaining why the doors haven't been released at the time
Following a door release, as far as I'm aware, the RA can be given with only the mid-platform signal off but it would be very bad practice as the train would have to stop again at the platform starting signal. We're instructed to only dispatch a train from a mid-platform signal if it is showing two yellows or a green, indicating that the platform starter is showing a proceed aspect.
I've just checked the route learning videos and the RA indicators are indeed there so I'll stand corrected on that - interestingly though platform 13 has an off indicator right next to the mid platform signal that remains extinguished unless the end of platform starter is off which is quite useful. I have dispatched from 13B heading South in extremis but it was really a rather long time ago and involved standing there for an hour during disruption first.
I'm still pretty sure I haven't ever used the RA for a within platform move where the doors haven't been released, however.
Because it's, for most people, the easiest to read. Which will be why all the motorway and trunk road agencies also use orange on black.
Those of us who remember the railway's flirt with any-colour plasma based screens. They were truly awful.
Nothing has worked better than orange on black LED, or white on black Solari
Leyland155
Member
- Joined
- 25 Jul 2016
- Messages
- 109
That's a good point about the mid-platform off indicator, I hadn't thought about that. So it is likely not possible to give an RA at the mid-platform signal without the starter being off, though not something I would have ever considered doing anyway
CAF397
Member
I've also been working through Man Picc for years, and the instruction I worked to when I first signed the route was if the train was brought to a stand at the mid platform signal, that it shouldn't move again until signalled out of the platform using the signal and RA at the end of the platform. Usually that also meant the guards would do station duties. The person in charge of the platform had nothing to do with authorising us to do that - maybe we are different TOCs?The instruction has always been that the driver/guard shouldn't release the doors at the mid platform signal without receiving the instruction to do so from the person in charge of the platform, and the mid platform signals aren't fitted with RA indicators anyway - the OFF/RA indicators are as far as I know only associated with the actual platform starting signals at the far end.
I'm not aware that you can give the R to the driver with only the mid platform signal off, I've been working through Man Picc 13/14 for years and it's just been a case of draw down by verbal instruction or hand signal from the platform staff. @Tomnick can probably confirm for me given I rarely see the actual process occur given I'm generally on the PA in the rear cab explaining why the doors haven't been released at the time
We were never dispatched on a single yellow + R at the mid platform, always on two yellows minimum, and the dispatcher would wait specifically for that.
If the train I worked was longer than would be accommodated at the mid platform, then I would always stop before the platform ramp if the mid platform signal was ON, until it cleared, then I would continue to my usual stopping point.
That is the correct procedure, thank you.
For us being brought to a stand at the "B end" would always result in a 2-2 on the buzzer from the driver (do not release doors, driver/guard to confer) and when the sjgnal cleared moving down to the "A end". The only exception would be if the person in charge (in our case Northern's dispatcher) wandered down to the driver and advised them to ask the guard to release the doors where we were standing - we've always had an internal policy of never releasing the doors at the B end without being asked to do so directly.
The reason given was that there is a train behind you most of the time, and the signal would usually clear in a few seconds or otherwise you'd be told - being able to move up straight away helps keep the job moving.
- Status