Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[SuperNova]

Shouldn't Cleethorpes - Liverpool and Nottingham - Liverpool be the same operator? Not helpful that TPE offers First Class while EMR does not. Option 3 also has no use for platforms 1 and 2 at Victoria, in fact nothing terminating at Victoria except in the peaks. For those of us living on the Calder Valley line, the performance risk with so many trains crossing Manchester has been an issue for some time but I suppose inevitable if major expenditure on infrastructure is to be avoided.

Liverpool-Nottingham was planned to transfer to TPE in 2022, that's being reviewed due to the pandemic.

I'm with you on the Calder Valley risks - would make sense to split one of the Chester-Leeds given that when introduced that service was a massive issue, impacting on several routes too. However, it's a botch until someone finally makes a decision on Manchester's infrastructure.

In option C I would prefer a half hourly TPE all day round the curve, because from a connectivity point of view an hourly peak service Vic-Ox Rd-Picc is pretty useless. Or hourly TPE, hourly Calder Valley all day if you prefer.

Agreed, I've seen the rush on a daily basis (pre-pandemic) from the Calder Valley service over the bridge to platform 3 at Vic to get on the train round the chord. However, C seems the be the most workable option.

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes, but what about Cumbria services via Bolton?

If this would be totally eradicated than there would be more pressure on the Chat Moss line.

The Cumbria (diesel) services could run via Atherton from Wigan North Western (not a serious proposal ).

I was not suggesting that all Bolton services could go to Victoria. It is a case of "every little helps".

Option C does have the Wigan via Bolton services going to Victoria, and the one peak via Atherton service going to Oxford Road.

 

[py_megapixel]

Frankly I think the Cumbrian services should be abolished and replaced with shuttles from Lancaster and Oxenholme respectively until such time as they are electrified. They cause ludicrous amounts of diesel under the wires.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frankly I think the Cumbrian services should be abolished and replaced with shuttles from Lancaster and Oxenholme respectively until such time as they are electrified. They cause ludicrous amounts of diesel under the wires.

There would be a reasonable case to cut them back to Preston, which would allow connections with the half-hourly high-capacity Blackpool service. Unless timings were done very carefully, cutting them back to Lancaster and Oxenholme would potentially cause considerably increased journey times.

Still gets them off Castlefield, of course.

 

[Ianno87]

There would be a reasonable case to cut them back to Preston, which would allow connections with the half-hourly high-capacity Blackpool service. Unless timings were done very carefully, cutting them back to Lancaster and Oxenholme would potentially cause considerably increased journey times.

Still gets them off Castlefield, of course.

Cutting them to a single change would be the target.

That's fine at Oxenholme / Lancaster if you're headed for Manchester (using the TPE Scotland service). More of a pain of putting Liverpool etc. two changes away (which would be the main benefit of going to Preston)

 

[Greybeard33]

So, to send a southbound Atherton train towards Piccadilly via Platform 2, you'd need at least an 8 or so minute gap between *any* train from Victoria towards Bolton (whilst the ex-Atherton occupies then clears the "northbound" platform. Whereas with Atherton trains towards Victoria, you only need about a 4 minute gap in Bolton trains, which is simply the junction margins at Windsor Bridge North.

No, in that scenario the Victoria to Bolton train would use the facing crossover before Windsor Bridge South Junction to cross to the Up Salford and access Platform 1 (Up & Down Bolton). No conflict at all with the Atherton to Ordsall Lane train in Platform 2 (Down Bolton).

But ideally you would flight pairs of services in the same direction through the station at the same time, alternating with pairs in the other direction. Not really relevant to this thread though.

 

[Ianno87]

No, in that scenario the Victoria to Bolton train would use the facing crossover before Windsor Bridge South Junction to cross to the Up Salford and access Platform 1 (Up & Down Bolton). No conflict at all with the Atherton to Ordsall Lane train in Platform 2 (Down Bolton).

It can't do that if there is simultaneously a Bolton to Victoria train using Platform 1 in parallel to the Atherton to Picc train using Platform 2, which was the proposal and the point of keeping the routes fully parallel

But ideally you would flight pairs of services in the same direction through the station at the same time, alternating with pairs in the other direction. Not really relevant to this thread though.

Frankly, sounds like a performance nightmare. It's effectively reducing the Bolton route to a single line through Platform 1 to get the parallel working to work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cutting them to a single change would be the target.

That's fine at Oxenholme / Lancaster if you're headed for Manchester (using the TPE Scotland service). More of a pain of putting Liverpool etc. two changes away (which would be the main benefit of going to Preston)

Agreed. Could it perhaps be sold to them by having an hourly clockface service from Preston to each using the units and crews that would go to Manchester? So an overall improvement at the cost of a change for your annual hollibobs?

 

[Ianno87]

Agreed. Could it perhaps be sold to them by having an hourly clockface service from Preston to each using the units and crews that would go to Manchester? So an overall improvement at the cost of a change for your annual hollibobs?

Depends what the actual market is. Are there really that many Windermere-Liverpool passengers in the grand scheme of things?

 

[BrianW]

I wonder ...

Looking back to the start of this thread, just a week and 450 postings ago, would it help to see a 'London Tube' like map of Manchester? Would that give some idea about what goes from where to where and where to change for this or that?

For me the difficulty of producing such a clear 'visual' (let alone a clear vision!) illustrates the issue. How can a visitor be expected to navigate their way?

OK- the 'immediate' task is to 'solve' Castlefield with the existing infrastructure. That must be the focus. K.I.S.S.

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder ...

Looking back to the start of this thread, just a week and 450 postings ago, would it help to see a 'London Tube' like map of Manchester? Would that give some idea about what goes from where to where and where to change for this or that?

For me the difficulty of producing such a clear 'visual' (let alone a clear vision!) illustrates the issue. How can a visitor be expected to navigate their way?

OK- the 'immediate' task is to 'solve' Castlefield with the existing infrastructure. That must be the focus. K.I.S.S.

There's one in the DfT Consultation document.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends what the actual market is. Are there really that many Windermere-Liverpool passengers in the grand scheme of things?

I've done it, er, once

There will be some. But I'd still go with Preston for the overall better connectivity to all destinations. The stopping pattern of services at Oxenholme on the mainline would also be of less significance then.

I wonder ...

Looking back to the start of this thread, just a week and 450 postings ago, would it help to see a 'London Tube' like map of Manchester? Would that give some idea about what goes from where to where and where to change for this or that?

For me the difficulty of producing such a clear 'visual' (let alone a clear vision!) illustrates the issue. How can a visitor be expected to navigate their way?

OK- the 'immediate' task is to 'solve' Castlefield with the existing infrastructure. That must be the focus. K.I.S.S.

This do? Doesn't show individual route permutations I guess.

Greater Manchester train network map

See a map of the Greater Manchester train and tram networks, showing all rail lines and stations, tram lines and stops, and links to other transport

tfgm.com

 

[Glenn1969]

Preston allows one change from Cumbria to a wide range of destinations including Blackpool, East and West Lancs and the Calder Valley as well as Liverpool and Manchester/Airport

 

[Ianno87]

Preston allows one change from Cumbria to a wide range of destinations including Blackpool, East and West Lancs and the Calder Valley as well as Liverpool and Manchester/Airport

Nobody is disputing that. But needs to be weighted against where passengers from Barrow/Windermere actually want to travel to.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nobody is disputing that. But needs to be weighted against where passengers from Barrow/Windermere actually want to travel to.

My observation is that the Barrows substantially tip out at Lancaster, but others have observed otherwise on here before.

 

[Ianno87]

My observation is that the Barrows substantially tip out at Lancaster, but others have observed otherwise on here before.

Suspect heavily dependent on time of day. Through Manchester etc. passengers probably focused mid-morning/late afternoon etc.

 

[Glenn1969]

Maybe provide through peak services with off peak terminating at Preston then? Looking for a quick win to reduce services through Castlefield

 

[Bletchleyite]

Suspect heavily dependent on time of day. Through Manchester etc. passengers probably focused mid-morning/late afternoon etc.

Yes, I'd expect a reasonable amount of weekday commuting to/from Manchester, it's quite convenient as a through train and also not that expensive compared with Sarfeast commuting.

Windermere I'm less sure about - probably more a tourist line from all sorts of places, with usage by locals relatively, er, local, and many probably not going past Kendal to Oxenholme at all.

 

[BayPaul]

For me the difficulty of producing such a clear 'visual' (let alone a clear vision!) illustrates the issue. How can a visitor be expected to navigate their way?

Looking at option C, as someone who doesn't visit Manchester very option, one of the nice things about it is that it lends itself well to producing a tube-map style diagram - almost all of the routes through central Manchester run every 30 minutes, normally with similar routes combining into a (presumably) ~15 minute freqency, that would work well as a map. Not a massive priority, but the fact that it could be done illustrates that for a visitor to the city, it has a certain level of simplicity which would be very welcome.

 

[BrianW]

There's one in the DfT Consultation document.

I've done it, er, once

There will be some. But I'd still go with Preston for the overall better connectivity to all destinations. The stopping pattern of services at Oxenholme on the mainline would also be of less significance then.



This do? Doesn't show individual route permutations I guess.

Greater Manchester train network map

See a map of the Greater Manchester train and tram networks, showing all rail lines and stations, tram lines and stops, and links to other transport

tfgm.com

They don't 'do ' it for me, sorry.
I'm thinking of something more like eg the Central Line: West Ruislip/ Ealing Bdy- Epping/ Hainault all via Oxford Circus and Liverpool St. I appreciate its not quite as simple as that but you 'get the picture'.
OK I know some people travel further than they need, but it's clear where to change and what onto.
(Regular travellers know their way too, identifying in a short time the easier (eg cross-platform) changes, including above ground proximities.)

I'm not sure a 1tph link Picc-Vic via Ordsall Curve really 'does it' better than 'escalator/ travelator link' Monument-Bank really does it either, not much better than 'passengers make their own way between Picc and Vic'.

It all feels to me something of a Pic and Mix if you'll pardon the pun. Maybe there's a Beck or Garbutt in the room?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Liverpool-Nottingham was planned to transfer to TPE in 2022, that's being reviewed due to the pandemic.

I'm with you on the Calder Valley risks - would make sense to split one of the Chester-Leeds given that when introduced that service was a massive issue, impacting on several routes too. However, it's a botch until someone finally makes a decision on Manchester's infrastructure.

Agreed, I've seen the rush on a daily basis (pre-pandemic) from the Calder Valley service over the bridge to platform 3 at Vic to get on the train round the chord. However, C seems the be the most workable option.

surely its even more reason to transfer the route to TPE (liverpool to Nottingham) if Liverpool to Cleethorpes is a thing as it would mean one company for all fast services via the Hope valley

 

[Glenn1969]

Which service at MAN is Liverpool- Cleethorpes supposed to replace? If it is the Castlefield service that is currently a Northern service. The Liverpool TPEs use the Chat Moss unless I am mistaken. So I can see why there is confusion on that map

 

[Ianno87]

Which service at MAN is Liverpool- Cleethorpes supposed to replace? If it is the Castlefield service that is currently a Northern service. The Liverpool TPEs use the Chat Moss unless I am mistaken. So I can see why there is confusion on that map

Basically combines the Liverpool-Manchester Airport via Warrington Northern service** with the Manchester Airport-Cleethorpes TPE service (and cuts out the Airport entirely).

**Which replaced the old Liverpool-Warrington-Scarborough TPE service in May 2018.

 

[Glenn1969]

That's what I thought. That is currently Northern from Liverpool to Manchester and TPE Manchester to Cleethorpes

 

[cle]

Nobody is disputing that. But needs to be weighted against where passengers from Barrow/Windermere actually want to travel to.

Preston guarantees an hourly London fast, hourly B'ham/London slow, many Manchesters and a Liverpool - plus Blackpool, East Lancs and other treats.

Thinking Windermere here, an hourly to there is better than 3-4tpd to Man Airport + hourly to Oxenholme where not everything calls.

Barrow is better served, and better placed with Lancaster which offers more connections than Oxenholme. But interworking might be better. Working through Preston (Ormskirk? Colne?) I don't think would be that worthwhile.

Overall it might help make the case for the wires. Or, even better - free up Castlefield for another hourly electric, say an 8 car Scotland service - giving one to Edinburgh and one to Glasgow every hour. And helping smooth out and speed up some stopping patterns up the WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Barrow is better served, and better placed with Lancaster which offers more connections than Oxenholme. But interworking might be better. Working through Preston (Ormskirk? Colne?) I don't think would be that worthwhile.

Would really need to be a 195 to not get in the way on the WCML, and 3-car due to the demand. Sending a 3-car 195 to Ormskirk or Colne would be a waste when a 2-car 150 or 156 is fine. I reckon terminate at Preston in P5 or P6.

 

[Glenn1969]

Or send it to Bradford. Believe 2tph Calder Valley- East Lancs is a TfN medium term aspiration. But I suppose that is for another thread

 

[Ianno87]

Preston guarantees an hourly London fast, hourly B'ham/London slow, many Manchesters and a Liverpool - plus Blackpool, East Lancs and other treats.

Given the Windermere branch unit is typically, what, 3 car? How many people on the branch unit need to get to all of those places every single hour?!

 

[Glenn1969]

Barrow/Windermere (1tp2h each)- Preston- Bradford. Gives new links and takes 1tph off Castlefield. Maybe maintain the Barrow hourly service with a Lancaster shuttle on the other hour

Thoughts?

 

[Bevan Price]

Yes, I'd expect a reasonable amount of weekday commuting to/from Manchester, it's quite convenient as a through train and also not that expensive compared with Sarfeast commuting.

Windermere I'm less sure about - probably more a tourist line from all sorts of places, with usage by locals relatively, er, local, and many probably not going past Kendal to Oxenholme at all.

On my very occasional visits to Windermere, I get the impression that there is not a huge amount of "local" travel. From Windermere, some passengers do alight (and board) at Kendal, but most continue to Oxenholme, alighting for both northbound & southbound connections on the WCML On the few through services I have used, some passengers alight at Lancaster, where more board for Preston & beyond. A lot alight at Preston, but it is not easy to identify how many have come through from the Windermere branch.