Manchester Recovery Taskforce (timetable) consultation

[py_megapixel]

Barrow/Windermere (1tp2h each)- Preston- Bradford. Gives new links and takes 1tph off Castlefield. Maybe maintain the Barrow hourly service with a Lancaster shuttle on the other hour

Thoughts?

Could work, but taking Windermere down to 1tp2h would be both unpopular and utterly pointless. An Oxenholme shuttle would have to do the alternate hours.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Preston guarantees an hourly London fast, hourly B'ham/London slow, many Manchesters and a Liverpool - plus Blackpool, East Lancs and other treats.

Thinking Windermere here, an hourly to there is better than 3-4tpd to Man Airport + hourly to Oxenholme where not everything calls.

Barrow is better served, and better placed with Lancaster which offers more connections than Oxenholme. But interworking might be better. Working through Preston (Ormskirk? Colne?) I don't think would be that worthwhile.

Overall it might help make the case for the wires. Or, even better - free up Castlefield for another hourly electric, say an 8 car Scotland service - giving one to Edinburgh and one to Glasgow every hour. And helping smooth out and speed up some stopping patterns up the WCML.

Mentioning Ormskirk is interesting. The diagrams are so poor as it’s basically a 1h06 (?) circuit, actually having them served by an hourly service from Cumbria / the Lakes, with the ‘other’ service being a Manchester (probably required a tiny bit of timetable tinkering but doubt it’s impossible) wouldn’t be a bad way to go.

 

[Glenn1969]

Understood

Could work, but taking Windermere down to 1tp2h would be both unpopular and utterly pointless. An Oxenholme shuttle would have to do the alternate hours.

 

[30907]

Barrow/Windermere (1tp2h each)- Preston- Bradford. Gives new links and takes 1tph off Castlefield. Maybe maintain the Barrow hourly service with a Lancaster shuttle on the other hour
Thoughts?

An Oxenholme-Windermere shuttle, as mentioned and as TPE used to do.

Preston-Blackburn could use 3tph; if Bradford is not an option, and the timings match up, going forward as the Victoria via Todmorden would benefit Accrington and Burnley (I know people who would lobby for Rishton...). Even Colne isn't totally silly, as the better acceleration of the 195s would make that line easier to operate and demand might pick up a bit.

PS Thanks to those who explained about the Wigan via Chat Moss - amazing what diverting TPE that way has done for traffic.

 

[158756]

(I know people who would lobby for Rishton...).

The current Blackburn-Todmorden-Manchester train doesn't exist to provide fast journeys from Blackburn, so the only reason I can see not to serve Rishton is that the turnaround times are too short (which they are in the Covid timetable, not sure about the normal times, but probably true there as well).

 

[geoffk]

Can this thread be used to discuss minor changes such as a lift to platform 1 at Oxford Road - it's not what we usually include under infrastructure changes. How feasible is it/what would it cost and what benefit would regular use of platform 1 offer to the operation of the Castlefield corridor? Is there an issue with signal overlaps as there is with platforms 3 and 4? The task force doesn't mention freight except to show the hourly path on the diagrams. How much time could be saved between Trafford Park and, say, Slade Lane Jn if all these were required to be electrically-hauled? All my photographs of electric-hauled freight here show a Dollands Moor service! Present-day destinations are Crewe Basford Hall, Southampton, Felixstowe, London Gateway (Tilbury) and Immingham and all except the Crewe service would require a traction change, mostly at Nuneaton or Ipswich. Changing locos/crews en route would be to the overall benefit of the railway in Manchester but there would be a cost.

 

[Class 170101]

Frankly I think the Cumbrian services should be abolished and replaced with shuttles from Lancaster and Oxenholme respectively until such time as they are electrified. They cause ludicrous amounts of diesel under the wires.

Whilst diesel under the wires isn't ideal I don't think thats a reason to abolish the service and (see below)

Thanks to those who explained about the Wigan via Chat Moss - amazing what diverting TPE that way has done for traffic.

it seems ideal to run these services via Wigan NW as this station already has Scottish services with Avanti with TPE Scotland services via Bolton. Perhaps in future the Cumbrian services could be run with Bi-modes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given the Windermere branch unit is typically, what, 3 car? How many people on the branch unit need to get to all of those places every single hour?!

It's mostly a tourist service, so will have far more people from further afield than most little branch lines do - Barrow included (though that has some tourist traffic).

Mentioning Ormskirk is interesting. The diagrams are so poor as it’s basically a 1h06 (?) circuit, actually having them served by an hourly service from Cumbria / the Lakes, with the ‘other’ service being a Manchester (probably required a tiny bit of timetable tinkering but doubt it’s impossible) wouldn’t be a bad way to go.

There's discussion of it on that thread, but the solution to the Ormskirk problem could well come in the form of a second Blackpool South to Preston service if a loop is built as seems to be being progressed, which it would be logical to send to Ormskirk as that gives a neat 3-unit hourly set of diagrams, because both lines effectively need a unit and a half for an hourly service. I'm not sure using a 3-car 195 wouldn't be a waste, too.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Has anybody considered it might be more sensible to actually have the "peak service" from Windermere / Cumbria actually run via Wigan (potentially not calling, don't shoot me), so that a longer, high-performance EMU could be used in the Preston - Manchester path they have found? Or, of course, truncating those services at Preston during peak and offering the Preston - Manchester sector each way as a connection, as the prime motive needs to be the best-performing trains to keep headways and aid recovery?

 

[tbtc]

Frankly I think the Cumbrian services should be abolished and replaced with shuttles from Lancaster and Oxenholme respectively until such time as they are electrified. They cause ludicrous amounts of diesel under the wires.

There would be a reasonable case to cut them back to Preston, which would allow connections with the half-hourly high-capacity Blackpool service. Unless timings were done very carefully, cutting them back to Lancaster and Oxenholme would potentially cause considerably increased journey times.

Still gets them off Castlefield, of course.

I guess it depends on what else runs the Manchester-bound paths, if anything.

For example, if you had a half hourly Manchester Airport - Castlefield - Bolton - Preston - Lancaster EMU (with bi-hourly extensions to both Edinburgh and Glasgow) then you'd have plenty of connections at Oxenholme/ Lancaster, without the need to run DMUs under the wires from Lancaster to Preston. An EMU could be expected to provide a lot more seats than a single 195.

If the plan is to cap the Barrow/ Windermere services way short of Manchester without running a replacement from Lancaster/ Preston to Manchester then I guess Preston would be more attractive. However you've also got the opportunity of interworking Barrow/ Windermere services at Lancaster with services to Morecambe/ Skipton.

I wonder ...

Looking back to the start of this thread, just a week and 450 postings ago, would it help to see a 'London Tube' like map of Manchester? Would that give some idea about what goes from where to where and where to change for this or that?

For me the difficulty of producing such a clear 'visual' (let alone a clear vision!) illustrates the issue. How can a visitor be expected to navigate their way?

OK- the 'immediate' task is to 'solve' Castlefield with the existing infrastructure. That must be the focus. K.I.S.S.

If you are looking for a map of the (pre-Covid) status quo, I'd recommend this site >> https://alexhancock.webs.com/Great Britain Train Services - Dec 2019.pdf

You can see the mess of services around Manchester, the different combinations of hourly service that cause all of the problems (each line on the map is an hourly service - some corridors don't seem to have *lots* of trains per hour, but the problem is the awkward mixture of where services start/end - e.g. the Hadfield and Rose Hill Marple lines don't have many problems, they are pretty self contained - but the Castlefield corridor squeezes trains from all over northern England (Newcastle, Barrow, Liverpool etc) and further afield (Nottingham, Llandudno, Glasgow etc)

Could work, but taking Windermere down to 1tp2h would be both unpopular and utterly pointless. An Oxenholme shuttle would have to do the alternate hours.

My understanding is that a Lancaster - Barrow - Lancaster diagram would take about as long as a Lancaster - Oxenholme - Windermere - Oxenholme - Windermere - Oxenholme - Lancaster service - i.e. a bi-hourly service from Lancaster would have enough time to do a double run on the Windermere branch and be back at Lancaster in the same time as a train could get to/from Barrow. I may be wrong though.

Preston-Blackburn could use 3tph

Preston - Blackburn seems like a really neglected pair of places - there's a decent enough bus service between them but the trains have never been more than two per hour since I can remember (and one of those was generally a 142 until very recently) - feels like it could justify an extra train or two - but these are the kind of unglamorous pairs of places that don't get as much attention as the likes of Windermere

 

[Greybeard33]

Can this thread be used to discuss minor changes such as a lift to platform 1 at Oxford Road - it's not what we usually include under infrastructure changes. How feasible is it/what would it cost and what benefit would regular use of platform 1 offer to the operation of the Castlefield corridor?

Oxford Road Platform 1 is only 105m long, so cannot be used by 5- or 6-car trains. And the layout does not permit trains from the west to reverse in it. Therefore a lift would provide only limited additional operational flexibility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford Road Platform 1 is only 105m long, so cannot be used by 5- or 6-car trains. And the layout does not permit trains from the west to reverse in it. Therefore a lift would provide only limited additional operational flexibility.

When did this change and in what way? It used to be used by Irlam locals in the 90s.

 

[cle]

Has anybody considered it might be more sensible to actually have the "peak service" from Windermere / Cumbria actually run via Wigan (potentially not calling, don't shoot me), so that a longer, high-performance EMU could be used in the Preston - Manchester path they have found? Or, of course, truncating those services at Preston during peak and offering the Preston - Manchester sector each way as a connection, as the prime motive needs to be the best-performing trains to keep headways and aid recovery?

I did mention this. It should be longer and electric. Blackpool is plenty served, overly in my view, so the wires send us right up the WCML.

i.e. there should be a second Scotland, giving a clean, separate hourly Edinburgh and hourly Glasgow service from Manchester.

Stopping patterns (esp considering the B'ham and London fast) - and Bolton v Wigan routing to be debated!

 

[adrock1976]

I did mention this. It should be longer and electric. Blackpool is plenty served, overly in my view, so the wires send us right up the WCML.

i.e. there should be a second Scotland, giving a clean, separate hourly Edinburgh and hourly Glasgow service from Manchester.

Stopping patterns (esp considering the B'ham and London fast) - and Bolton v Wigan routing to be debated!

Wigan North Western already has the hourly London Euston - Glasgow via ex Trent Valley Railway, but only 2 hourly to Edinburgh.

Therefore I would run the TP Glasgow via Bolton, and the TP Edinburgh via Wigan NW. It would also maintain route knowledge too.

 

[YorksLad12]

They don't 'do ' it for me, sorry.
I'm thinking of something more like eg the Central Line: West Ruislip/ Ealing Bdy- Epping/ Hainault all via Oxford Circus and Liverpool St. I appreciate its not quite as simple as that but you 'get the picture'.
OK I know some people travel further than they need, but it's clear where to change and what onto.
(Regular travellers know their way too, identifying in a short time the easier (eg cross-platform) changes, including above ground proximities.)

I'm not sure a 1tph link Picc-Vic via Ordsall Curve really 'does it' better than 'escalator/ travelator link' Monument-Bank really does it either, not much better than 'passengers make their own way between Picc and Vic'.

It all feels to me something of a Pic and Mix if you'll pardon the pun. Maybe there's a Beck or Garbutt in the room?

A fellow poster last year did a great pdf of all the lines and frequencies for the whole of Great Britain. Like the one in the report, only better (and accurate). If I tried to do something public-facing it would look a lot like the TfGM one, to be honest. They are tram-focused, whereas over here in West Yorkshire it's trains or nothing.

Edit: as linked to by @tbtc in post #490 above.

 

[cle]

Wigan North Western already has the hourly London Euston - Glasgow via ex Trent Valley Railway, but only 2 hourly to Edinburgh.

Therefore I would run the TP Glasgow via Bolton, and the TP Edinburgh via Wigan NW. It would also maintain route knowledge too.

That makes sense for Wigan. But are we not supposed to be running everything in Takt pairs?

So maybe 2x Blackpool via Wigan, 2x Scotland via Bolton? Plus whichever local stopping services on top.

Wigan to Blackpool and Bolton to Scotland is less crossing moves too, both WCML and Preston.

 

[Greybeard33]

When did this change and in what way? It used to be used by Irlam locals in the 90s.

The facing crossover in the west throat of Oxford Road is to the east of the junction between the P1 and P2 lines, so can only be used to enter P2, not P1, from the up line.

There is another facing crossover just east of Deansgate, that could be used to run wrong road on the down line to Oxford Road and access P1. I did not think that would be a signalled move in passenger service, but I could have been mistaken.

 

[Ianno87]

There is another facing crossover just east of Deansgate, that could be used to run wrong road on the down line to Oxford Road and access P1. I did not think that would be a signalled move in passenger service, but I could have been mistaken.

Pretty sure the Deansgste crossover is the signalled route into Platform 1, available for passenger services.

It's just a bit horrific to use due to the fact you've got to run "wrong direction" all the way.

 

[The Planner]

Can this thread be used to discuss minor changes such as a lift to platform 1 at Oxford Road - it's not what we usually include under infrastructure changes. How feasible is it/what would it cost and what benefit would regular use of platform 1 offer to the operation of the Castlefield corridor? Is there an issue with signal overlaps as there is with platforms 3 and 4? The task force doesn't mention freight except to show the hourly path on the diagrams. How much time could be saved between Trafford Park and, say, Slade Lane Jn if all these were required to be electrically-hauled? All my photographs of electric-hauled freight here show a Dollands Moor service! Present-day destinations are Crewe Basford Hall, Southampton, Felixstowe, London Gateway (Tilbury) and Immingham and all except the Crewe service would require a traction change, mostly at Nuneaton or Ipswich. Changing locos/crews en route would be to the overall benefit of the railway in Manchester but there would be a cost.

Oxford Road Platform 1 is only 105m long, so cannot be used by 5- or 6-car trains. And the layout does not permit trains from the west to reverse in it. Therefore a lift would provide only limited additional operational flexibility.

The planning rules specifically state to avoid using P1 for that reason, there is no lift. I would argue it would be very difficult to force electric only freight through Castlefield, I doubt we would win the argument in the ensuing dispute hearing...

 

[peters]

I'm surprised that the consultation tries to suggest that Flixton gains the benefit of an hourly service in Option C, given it already has one and has done for quite some time...

Presumably it should say Chassen Road, which is actually the most convenient station for some people who travel to or from Flixton.

 

[Greybeard33]

Pretty sure the Deansgste crossover is the signalled route into Platform 1, available for passenger services.

It's just a bit horrific to use due to the fact you've got to run "wrong direction" all the way.

I have corrected my OP.

I have remembered that, when the Ordsall Chord first opened, Northern extended a few off peak Calder Valley services to Oxford Road, until the TPE services were diverted round the Chord in May 2018. IIRC some of those reversed in P1, despite the lack of a lift.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder why 1 was used in place of 5 back then, then? Only the not-quite-hourly Warrington/Irlam local terminated at Oxford Road, so both must have been an option? Or was 5 completely disused for a while?

 

[BayPaul]

A little bit off topic, but it seems amazing that a lift and platform extension hasn't been provided to P1. On Google Earth It doesn't look to be impossible, or even particularly expensive in railway terms to extend up to around 40m to the West, to where the viaduct narrows (even if it meant adding lifts to the footbridge rather than in the same way as the other platforms). Having a piece of infrastructure that is in short supply (a west facing platform in Manchester) basically unused seems very short sighted. Platform 1 could then be the main W>E through platform, and Platform 2 could have a lot more reversing moves, so avoiding changing track layout or running wrong road from Deansgate. No doubt there is a good reason!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have corrected my OP.

I have remembered that, when the Ordsall Chord first opened, Northern extended a few off peak Calder Valley services to Oxford Road, until the TPE services were diverted round the Chord in May 2018. IIRC some of those reversed in P1, despite the lack of a lift.

ATW/TfW reversed Marches services in Oxford Road P1 whenever the Wilmslow route to Crewe was closed, with diversion via Warrington BQ.
Not sure that's happened since the Ordsall Chord resignalling though.

 

[Geeves]

TPE has not "given up" on 6tph between Huddersfield and Stalybridge. The fast services have been temporarily reduced from 4tph to 2tph because of the pandemic. The main reason for the delays on the Huddersfield line was the congestion in central Manchester, which the Task Force options address.

Sorry Greybeard that is not correct, the trains were almost always late before they ever reached the chord, but yes I agree congestion in Manchester didnt help matters.

I would like to see the TfW option through to Stalybridge for sure

 

[VauxhallNova]

Sorry Greybeard that is not correct, the trains were almost always late before they ever reached the chord, but yes I agree congestion in Manchester didnt help matters.

That's something conveniently forgotten by those blaming Castlefield for all the problems in the North.

 

[Whisky Papa]

I wonder why 1 was used in place of 5 back then, then? Only the not-quite-hourly Warrington/Irlam local terminated at Oxford Road, so both must have been an option? Or was 5 completely disused for a while?

In my experience (at the time I was regularly travelling from Todmorden to Urmston for family reasons) the extended Calder Valley trains usually terminated in P5 at Oxford Road, with the CLC stopper moved to P3. I can't recall use of P1, but am certainly not ruling it out.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my experience (at the time I was regularly travelling from Todmorden to Urmston at the time for family reasons) the extended Calder Valley trains usually terminated in P5 at Oxford Road, with the CLC stopper moved to P3. I can't recall use of P1, but am certainly not ruling it out.

Which extended Calder Valley trains, sorry? I'm talking late 90s here, pre Ordsall. The CLC stopper for a period around 1997 almost always used 1.

I seem to recall there being a fair gap (maybe 10-15 mins?) between the xx07 Cumbria (sometimes with Edinburgh portion) and the train before, perhaps there was time for it to get in around then? I do recall I tended to see it while waiting for the xx10 Liverpool or xx16 Blackpool - it would have gone out just after the Liverpool, I guess.

 

[Ianno87]

I wonder why 1 was used in place of 5 back then, then? Only the not-quite-hourly Warrington/Irlam local terminated at Oxford Road, so both must have been an option? Or was 5 completely disused for a while?

For a number of years, Platform 5 was used for the Llandudno service, until that was extended to Piccadilly (it used to terminate at Oxford Road for a period in the early/mid-90s)

 

[Glenn1969]

They were put on in 2017 after the Chord opened. They were supposed to go to Picc/Airport but had to terminate at Oxford Rd presumably because of lack of paths. They were "temporarily" withdrawn again in 2018 but have yet to be reinstated