Manchester to Leeds Northern vs TPE fares

[amahy]

Most of the Calder Valley overcrowding is on the Hebden Bridge-Leeds section, not because of through passengers from Manchester.

Not in my experience, I’ve been a Todmorden/Walsden to Manchester commuter for over 8 years and certain peak time services are full at 4 car, let alone 2 or 3. I also frequently encounter people going from Manchester to Leeds at peak time via the Calder Valley, for the cheaper fares. While I’d agree that the overcrowding is mostly because of passengers at the local stations, the Leeds to Manchester cheap fares certainly aren’t helping.

 

[Haywain]

While I’d agree that the overcrowding is mostly because of passengers at the local stations, the Leeds to Manchester cheap fares certainly aren’t helping.

But the solution is to provide more capacity on both routes (the TPE route isn't running empty trains), not just increase fares for a small group of passengers.

 

[yorksrob]

Most of the Calder Valley overcrowding is on the Hebden Bridge-Leeds section, not because of through passengers from Manchester.

There still ought to be CDR's or equivalent for all routes between Leeds and Manchester. The two are clearly a suitable distance for a day trip. That there isn't is just price gouging, nothing more.

 

[TUC]

But the solution is to provide more capacity on both routes (the TPE route isn't running empty trains), not just increase fares for a small group of passengers.

Agreed. The normal response of any other business to a successful product is to offer more of it, not increase the price to reduce demand.

 

[Haywain]

The normal response of any other business to a successful product is to offer more of it, not increase the price to reduce demand.

The normal response is to do one of those two things, depending on whether they can actually be done. Unfortunately, adding more capacity to railways is a long, slow and expensive process.

 

[JonathanH]

There still ought to be CDR's or equivalent for all routes between Leeds and Manchester.

In other threads you are advocating having the same fares apply all day. There doesn't strictly need to be an off peak day return. I think you would settle for the all day fare being reasonable.

 

[Watershed]

In other threads you are advocating having the same fares apply all day. There doesn't strictly need to be an off peak day return. I think you would settle for the all day fare being reasonable.

I think that like most of us, @yorksrob is realistic as to the fact that the all day fare has virtually no chance of being reduced to an amount that could be considered reasonable.

 

[yorksrob]

In other threads you are advocating having the same fares apply all day. There doesn't strictly need to be an off peak day return. I think you would settle for the all day fare being reasonable.

There's what I would like to see (abolishing peak fares as in Scotland).

Failing that, decent off peak and CDR fares where appropriate would be acceptable.

Yes, if the anytime fare were set at a CDR type of level, that would be fine. I suspect that the powers that be wouldn't allow it though.

I think that like most of us, @yorksrob is realistic as to the fact that the all day fare has virtually no chance of being reduced to an amount that could be considered reasonable.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[TUC]

The normal response is to do one of those two things, depending on whether they can actually be done. Unfortunately, adding more capacity to railways is a long, slow and expensive process.

It is, but things only change through relentless public pressure, not by accepting fare increases to help out an inefficient process.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Competition. And nobody has yet thought about the fact that Northern and TPE are effectively now the same TOC and this no longer makes any sense for the reasons you state

The via Hebden Bridge fares pre-date, by many years, the creation of TPE as a standalone TOC.

They exist mainly as a way of keeping the Bradford to Manchester fares at a reasonable level in keeping with the other fares on the line. The ANY PERMITTED is valid via Leeds and, as an example, the VIA HEBDEN BRIDGE Anytime Short Return is £23 cheaper than the ANY PERMITTED.

Careful what you wish for…

 

[Watershed]

The via Hebden Bridge fares pre-date, by many years, the creation of TPE as a standalone TOC.

They didn't exist at NFM64 (September 1996), and TPE was split out as a separate TOC in 2004. Are you sure it happend between those dates?

 

[kieron]

The NMF64 list includes "via Halifax" tickets instead. I don't know about "reasonable routes", but this was equivalent to "via Hebden Bridge" under the 1996 routeing guide as Bradford–Manchester journeys weren't permitted via Halifax and Huddersfield.

This changed when the three mile rule was added (whenever that was), if not before. Perhaps the route code was changed to "via Hebden Bridge" then.

 

[Watershed]

The NMF64 list includes "via Halifax" tickets instead. I don't know about "reasonable routes", but this was equivalent to "via Hebden Bridge" under the 1996 routeing guide as Bradford–Manchester journeys weren't permitted via Halifax and Huddersfield.

This changed when the three mile rule was added (whenever that was), if not before. Perhaps the route code was changed to "via Hebden Bridge" then.

Ah, I only checked for "via Hebden Bridge" fares. So @Tetchytyke was probably right in that case, my apologies!

 

[VideozVideoz]

Is it possible to buy Leeds to Any Manchester Station, then use Northern + TPE from Victoria to use the curve to Piccadilly (for the same price as Leeds - MCV)? Must add that I think there's a free bus from MCV to Piccadilly if that's not possible.

Possible but not with a cheap northern advance ticket. It forces an anytime fare

 

[sheff1]

A similar situation exists between Manchester and Sheffield.

Indeed and, anecdotally, there seems to have been a significant increase of people with large suitcases on the Northern trains post-covid. I get the feeling people were content to pay a premium for direct services to/from the airport but now they have to change at Piccadilly anyway a decent number are going for the cheapest option.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Ah, I only checked for "via Hebden Bridge" fares. So @Tetchytyke was probably right in that case, my apologies!

From memory it changed when Brighouse station re-opened, as “via Halifax” would have permitted travel via Huddersfield.

 

[185]

There were arguments some time ago against Northern being allowed to introduce advance tickets on a number of services as these would bring passengers off the express services onto local trains where space was a problem. That said, there was a general acceptance that a lower quality, slower route should certainly be offered at a lower cost.

I'm of the view where there is capacity on slower, lower quality trains there should be a routing available for that service, but I believe that long term, 70% of UK advance ticket flows (ie all the pointless, short journey, post-2010 ones) and 90% of the TOC-only routing tickets in this country need removing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm of the view where there is capacity on slower, lower quality trains there should be a routing available for that service, but I believe that long term, 70% of UK advance ticket flows (ie all the pointless, short journey, post-2010 ones) and 90% of the TOC-only routing tickets in this country need removing.

Replied in a new speculative thread as this is getting more onto what we think should happen: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...uivalent-fares-should-remain-into-gbr.286115/

 

[185]

To me they're worth keeping where there is a significant market broadening (mostly long distance, e.g. cheap, slow WMT vs. expensive, fast Avanti

That's a good example, perhaps one of the best.

An advance ticket sold for Ardwick to Ashburys (1 mile) valid only on a Wednesday when there's snow and there's a pope called Dave is not.

 

[tomoufc]

There were arguments some time ago against Northern being allowed to introduce advance tickets on a number of services as these would bring passengers off the express services onto local trains where space was a problem. That said, there was a general acceptance that a lower quality, slower route should certainly be offered at a lower cost.

I'm of the view where there is capacity on slower, lower quality trains there should be a routing available for that service, but I believe that long term, 70% of UK advance ticket flows (ie all the pointless, short journey, post-2010 ones) and 90% of the TOC-only routing tickets in this country need removing.

One problem with that is where only day returns exist on some flows. Without cheaper advances, you have to buy two singles at around twice the price of a return, if coming back another day.

 

[Deerfold]

From memory it changed when Brighouse station re-opened, as “via Halifax” would have permitted travel via Huddersfield.

Also Northern started running the service from Leeds via Dewsbury, Brighouse and Hebden Bridge to Manchester that didn't pass through Halifax.