Manchester Trams refuse to accept round £1 coins.

[Starmill]

So could an RPI if they wanted to actually give out a Penalty Fare if all that a passenger had on them is round £1 coins so they boarded without a ticket? Surely that wouldn't be allowed?

Is the passenger on the tram without a ticket? Yes
Did the passenger request authorisation to travel without a ticket? No
Will they get a Standard Fare as a result? Yes (almost certainly)

They certainly would not sell you a ticket. You might be asked to leave the tram and pay for a ticket at the machine and get on the next tram instead, but that would be at their discretion.

At least Metrolink's scheme for charging standard fares and the requirement to pay before boarding is made completely clear on ticket machines (very much unlike the situation at another nearby rail operator).

 

[boyaloud]

It's high time that we moved far more of our transactions towards contactless card anyway; then we wouldn't have this issue; nor would we have the expense and security considerations of handling tons of cash. On trams, buses, at swimming pools, car parks - the whole nine yards.

Couldn't agree more, I very rarely use cash and it drives me mad! Londons buses show how a cash free society can work much better and faster!

 

[johntea]

On a slightly unrelated note I presume Metrolink have undercover revenue staff? As far too often I've seen them uniformed staff get on at a random station but it has given enough time for the dodgers to notice them get on and make a quick departure

 

[Merseysider]

On a slightly unrelated note I presume Metrolink have undercover revenue staff? As far too often I've seen them uniformed staff get on at a random station but it has given enough time for the dodgers to notice them get on and make a quick departure

Yeah, I've seen a couple with their lanyard tucked away begin doing revenue blocks at Victoria

 

[bb21]

On a slightly unrelated note I presume Metrolink have undercover revenue staff? As far too often I've seen them uniformed staff get on at a random station but it has given enough time for the dodgers to notice them get on and make a quick departure

On the few occasions I observed them in action, they had sufficient numbers to block all doors and check the tickets of everyone onboard and leaving. Has that practice changed?

 

[Harpers Tate]

Disliking cards and preferring cash is irrelevant; I dislike cash and prefer cards, yet many payment systems don't cater for that preference. The card only method, in this context, is exactly equal and opposite.

And as for "not available to everyone".......if it were to become increasingly the norm, then it surely would become available to everyone by default, one way or another. Business responds to demand; if there were a demand for a card for everyone (including minors) then some business would offer such a facility.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It exists - prepaid cards.

 

[paddington]

In the UK, I prefer to use card, but I occasionally visit merchants who are cash only or where paying in cash is easier.

If you don't want round pounds, then have the right change!

A week after they came out, I went to the bank and got £200 of them, and I haven't touched a round pound since except when my friends (knowing that I have lots of new pounds) try to pass them on to me.

My sources say that Gibraltar and Isle of Man will continue to accept standard UK round pounds for the next few years as they are not discontinuing their own ones. I think they are likely to become the dumping ground for the fakes....

The Channel Islands are discontinuing the Jersey and Guernsey round pounds (they use £1 notes) and so standard UK round pounds will also cease to be accepted from October. They will accept the new pound coin.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I wonder what percentage of those old one pound coins in circulation were counterfeit in 2017?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the UK, I prefer to use card, but I occasionally visit merchants who are cash only or where paying in cash is easier.

There are cases where cash can be easier, but contactless makes them increasingly fewer, and is available to all via prepaid cards. These incur a fee, but I do wonder if it might be worth the railway coming up with their own zero-fee version (under contract via a bank, not something fancy) as the money saved from removing cash acceptance from all TVMs and parking machines across the UK would be absolutely immense. The cards could be topped up at local shops instead.

 

[paddington]

There are cases where cash can be easier, but contactless makes them increasingly fewer, and is available to all via prepaid cards. These incur a fee, but I do wonder if it might be worth the railway coming up with their own zero-fee version (under contract via a bank, not something fancy) as the money saved from removing cash acceptance from all TVMs and parking machines across the UK would be absolutely immense. The cards could be topped up at local shops instead.

You have a point there provided that the cards are not named, otherwise that defeats one of the purposes of using cash. I wonder what the new Oyster system will be like, as one poster here said that all cards must be named.

The Octopus card in Hong Kong is a cash replacement, but it is run by a private company.

South Korea is proposing something similar to replace coins completely, and this is a government (Bank of Korea) initiative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have a point there provided that the cards are not named, otherwise that defeats one of the purposes of using cash.

Gift vouchers are generally not named, so using a similar system would be workable. As long as it could be integrated into TVMs and the PayPoint/PayZone system it'd work just fine.

Of course if you lose such a card you've lost its value, just like cash.

Like for TfL buses, the saving would be massive - and all it'd take is one relatively cheap card-only TVM at a station to consider that it had an opportunity to pay. You could turn near enough the entire network[1] into a Penalty Fares area far more economically than at present.

[1] OK, maybe not the S&C, Scottish rural lines and the Conwy Valley, but certainly most of it - at least anywhere where you can get a mobile signal for the authorisation.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I wonder what percentage of those old one pound coins in circulation were counterfeit in 2017?

"It was estimated that as many as 3 per cent of the old round pounds were fake, representing £50 million of fake coinage in circulation in the UK."
https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/2796478/fake-counterfeit-one-pound-coins-circulation-spot/

 

[paddington]

Like for TfL buses, the saving would be massive

I wonder if such savings would translate into a reduction in fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if such savings would translate into a reduction in fares.

Probably not directly, but a reduction in costs would probably result in slightly delayed/reduced increases over time like any reduction in costs to the business. The margins on TOCs are pretty tight and controlled.

 

[TUC]

It has been well advertised at Metrolink stops that these coins would soon not be accepted.

There have been some guards turning down old pound coins too, and some TransPennine RPIs at Dewsbury recently refused to accept them.

.)

Why would a RPI refuse to accept them? That is very different to a machine not being able to handle them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would a RPI refuse to accept them? That is very different to a machine not being able to handle them.

Particularly given that if a passenger has to pay an RPI or guard a debt exists (as the passenger has travelled, for whatever reason, without a valid ticket), making legal tender relevant.

(Technically legal tender applies only to debts paid into a Court, but equally it is likely any Court case for failure to pay when legal tender was offered would fail - though I don't know if that would apply to a Byelaw or RoRA prosecution as these are rather special cases)

 

[Starmill]

People who think cash is dead clearly don't get out much. In just the past month I've used bars, buses, Indian restaurants, chippies, market stalls, cafés and takeaways that take nothing but cash. If I had a car it's likely I would have needed to use a parking meter with no cash alternative. Although my corner shop takes cards and has done for years, there's one nearby where they are still trying to charge you 50p to use any type of card, even though they accept contactless now. You'd be mad to pay by card there.

 

[swt class 450]

Couldn't agree more, I very rarely use cash and it drives me mad! Londons buses show how a cash free society can work much better and faster!

I have to say i really don't agree with that. London Buses have been an absolute nightmare since they got rid of cash. TFL going cashless on buses has been a complete failure. There has been many times that i have been in Greater London and surrounding areas and have wished to catch a TFL bus but haven't been able to as all i have on me is cash.

The only options now for people without cash are to buy a £5.00 Bus & Tram Pass or a £12.30 Day Travelcard which can only be bought from railway stations (and many people don't even live near railway stations). Before you could easily just buy a £2.40 Single from the driver. Oyster Cards are inconvenient as they charge a rip off £5 to get one (it should be free like other smartcards are) and then it can be hard to find places to top up (especially in areas on the bus routes that go far outside Greater London such as the RATP 465 for example).

I know i have mentioned this in another thread but i have four friends who drive TFL buses who are all having to let people on for free every day because all they have on them is cash. So TFL are also losing some money. And this also proves that not everyone has a contactless card.

I pay for pretty much everything in cash. I never use bank cards. Personally i really just don't trust banks and don't trust paying for things with cards (and most certainly don't trust contactless cards). It has to be remembered that many people still don't have bank accounts or don't like paying for things with cards.

So getting back to the point with Manchester Metrolink i think it would be awful if they went cashless as well. A huge amount of people rely on cash (and will probably continue to do so for many more years). Similarly many people still rely on round £1 coins. Just yesterday evening i got six round £1 coins in change from Waitrose and another two round £1 coins in change from W H Smith this morning. Whether or not Manchester Metrolink Trams are legally allowed to refuse them it still doesn't seem right or very customer friendly (especially as there are no ticket offices). I think they could of dealt with it better.

 

[sheff1]

People who think cash is dead clearly don't get out much. In just the past month I've used bars, buses, Indian restaurants, chippies, market stalls, cafés and takeaways that take nothing but cash.

I think it more that they don't get out of London & the SE much. Try using a card in many restaurants, pubs, cafes, chippies etc round here and you would get nowhere. A new Indian restaurant opened close by a few months back and the most prominent sign as you enter is "Sorry, cards not accepted" - doesn't seem to have deterred the punters, as the place is always busy. Conversely, when I paid by cash in a London pub the the other day, they were rather taken aback - "Oh ... cash ???".

 

[rebmcr]

[1] OK, maybe not the S&C, Scottish rural lines and the Conwy Valley, but certainly most of it - at least anywhere where you can get a mobile signal for the authorisation.

Contactless does not require real-time authentication.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Contactless does not require real-time authentication.

AIUI it will soon.

Edit: "Transit mode" won't, but I believe that is very specifically the type of usage where you touch in and if applicable out at a ticket gate or on a bus, as it is impractical to require authorisation there due to the time penalty. I suspect a TVM or parking purchase would not have such leeway as there is no such issue with the extra time.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Just to say there are places in London where it's cash only. I went to a great restaurant recently where this was the case, and they are not short of custom. Then a barber's last week (great cut, very friendly). Ditto various chippies, snack and sandwich bars, and small convenience stores, not to mention street food places. And I can think of a few cash bars.

Most of these places I can think of were/are not suffering from being cash only, far from it.

It's not a sure fire indicator by any means, but cash only often suggests independent traders who are happy to do their own thing, offering something that people want, and if people can't make the effort then it's their loss, not that of the establishment in question!

 

[Clip]

I have to say i really don't agree with that. London Buses have been an absolute nightmare since they got rid of cash. TFL going cashless on buses has been a complete failure. There has been many times that i have been in Greater London and surrounding areas and have wished to catch a TFL bus but haven't been able to as all i have on me is cash.
.

I have no idea why you would say its a complete failure? it seems to have worked really well and has been in operation for a number of years now and you know this and yet you still do not bring an oyster nor contactless card with you? Id say that's more your failings than TfLs.

The only options now for people without cash are to buy a £5.00 Bus & Tram Pass or a £12.30 Day Travelcard which can only be bought from railway stations (and many people don't even live near railway stations). Before you could easily just buy a £2.40 Single from the driver. Oyster Cards are inconvenient as they charge a rip off £5 to get one (it should be free like other smartcards are) and then it can be hard to find places to top up (especially in areas on the bus routes that go far outside Greater London such as the RATP 465 for example).

Then surely you ensure you have enough credit before you use such services so you don't get stuck? Or am I being to sensible here?

I know i have mentioned this in another thread but i have four friends who drive TFL buses who are all having to let people on for free every day because all they have on them is cash. So TFL are also losing some money. And this also proves that not everyone has a contactless card.

I don't use the buses that often so I cant qualify a decent enough answer but I'm pretty sure with the rise of inspectors ive seen I cant seem to think this being a lot of people.

I pay for pretty much everything in cash. I never use bank cards. Personally i really just don't trust banks and don't trust paying for things with cards (and most certainly don't trust contactless cards). It has to be remembered that many people still don't have bank accounts or don't like paying for things with cards.

Indeed they don't but if they are in London and using public transport then its either an oyster or a card. Your lack of trust in the banking system and card usage is your issue and not one for the transport industry.

So getting back to the point with Manchester Metrolink i think it would be awful if they went cashless as well. A huge amount of people rely on cash (and will probably continue to do so for many more years). Similarly many people still rely on round £1 coins. Just yesterday evening i got six round £1 coins in change from Waitrose and another two round £1 coins in change from W H Smith this morning. Whether or not Manchester Metrolink Trams are legally allowed to refuse them it still doesn't seem right or very customer friendly (especially as there are no ticket offices). I think they could of dealt with it better

There probably is no other way to deal with it - as I have mentioned up above its becoming more and more time consuming in separating the coins and this all adds up to extra cost.

I'm sure if Metrolink went cashless they would encourage the use of top ups being available at thousands of shops just like they do in London and I'm sure people would adapt to it just like millions of us in London have done too.

They wont for a good few years yet but where savings are to be made then that is a big one.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Just to say there are places in London where it's cash only. I went to a great restaurant recently where this was the case, and they are not short of custom. Then a barber's last week (great cut, very friendly). Ditto various chippies, snack and sandwich bars, and small convenience stores, not to mention street food places. And I can think of a few cash bars.

Most of these places I can think of were/are not suffering from being cash only, far from it.

It's not a sure fire indicator by any means, but cash only often suggests independent traders who are happy to do their own thing, offering something that people want, and if people can't make the effort then it's their loss, not that of the establishment in question!

Many small businesses can be put off accepting cards by the charges. They often overlook the handling costs of cash - banking fees, loss though theft, forgeries or simple mistakes and the manual overhead of cashing-up. Those that switch to taking cards soon start to see the benefits.

 

[radamfi]

I know i have mentioned this in another thread but i have four friends who drive TFL buses who are all having to let people on for free every day because all they have on them is cash. So TFL are also losing some money. And this also proves that not everyone has a contactless card.

I reckon a lot of the time these are fare dodgers who are trying to get a free ride and actually have an Oyster or contactless card on them. Lots of people got free rides even before the end of cash payment by flashing a £20 note at the driver in the hope that the driver didn't have change.

 

[Sacro]

Contactless does not require real-time authentication.

Yes it does, you can't use it without authenticating against the chip.

It doesn't require real-time authorisation however.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it does, you can't use it without authenticating against the chip.

It doesn't require real-time authorisation however.

It will soon, with the exception of "transit mode". Precisely what that is I'm not quite clear (i.e. does a TVM count?)

 

[Clip]

It will soon, with the exception of "transit mode". Precisely what that is I'm not quite clear (i.e. does a TVM count?)

Transit mode is exactly what it says - gatelines such as oyster and buses and twams

 

[Joe Paxton]

I have to say i really don't agree with that. London Buses have been an absolute nightmare since they got rid of cash. TFL going cashless on buses has been a complete failure. There has been many times that i have been in Greater London and surrounding areas and have wished to catch a TFL bus but haven't been able to as all i have on me is cash.
...

I've just read this upthread and feel the need to respond.

I'm a regular London bus passenger, and for what it's worth I was not in favour of removing the cash option altogether, but the above - "complete failure", "absolute nightmare" - is just utter nonsense.

My experience is that the switch to cashless buses has actually been smoother and more trouble free than I expected.

If you don't have or want to use a contactless card, then getting an Oyster makes sense. The £5 cost of an Oyster card (technically a deposit) would pay for itself within six bus journeys - that's assuming the cash fare for a bus ticket was still £2.40 (and actually I think it would have gone up from the 2014 price).

Perhaps the objection is more of the tin-foil hat variety?