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Mandated vaccines for care work

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Huntergreed

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Are we heading this way for everything in the UK or just care work?
I would hope this is just for care work (it shouldn't even be for that, it's disgraceful authoritarianism and signals a very sad day for this country).

That being said, it wouldn't shock me if we end up having some 'COVID-passports' for large events, requiring either proof of vaccination or a negative PCR test to be taken within the previous 48 hours for entry.
 

Gadget88

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I would hope this is just for care work (it shouldn't even be for that, it's disgraceful authoritarianism and signals a very sad day for this country).

That being said, it wouldn't shock me if we end up having some 'COVID-passports' for large events, requiring either proof of vaccination or a negative PCR test to be taken within the previous 48 hours for entry.
True but atleast worst case a test is accepted. I work in retail and I am terrified for my job if I don’t have the vaccine. Sure it may not happen in every sector I really hope not.
 

MikeWM

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So - right to protest effectively abolished, it is now effectively illegal to leave the country, and now the Government is going to dictate that healthy people have medical treatment in order to feed their families.

They are not things that happen in a free society.

Something has gone terribly, terribly wrong with this country in the past year. We are in very deep trouble.
 

Bertie the bus

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I would hope this is just for care work (it shouldn't even be for that, it's disgraceful authoritarianism and signals a very sad day for this country).

It really isn't disgraceful authoritarianism and doesn't signal a very sad day for this country. People in care work are supposed to care for and protect the people they look after. It isn't unreasonable to expect those in such work to not kill people in their charge and before anybody says the people being cared for should be vaccinated and therefore protected it is well known that the older and sicker people are, i.e. people being looked after by care workers, have the worst immune system and so will continue to be reasonably vulnerable. If people don't want the vaccine there are plenty of other jobs to apply for.
 

Yew

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It really isn't disgraceful authoritarianism and doesn't signal a very sad day for this country. People in care work are supposed to care for and protect the people they look after. It isn't unreasonable to expect those in such work to not kill people in their charge and before anybody says the people being cared for should be vaccinated and therefore protected it is well known that the older and sicker people are, i.e. people being looked after by care workers, have the worst immune system and so will continue to be reasonably vulnerable. If people don't want the vaccine there are plenty of other jobs to apply for.
Compulsory medical treatment has some very unfortunate precedents, and is specifically prohibited in resolutions by the Council of Europe.
 

Bertie the bus

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Should it happen it will almost certainly be for new starters and therefore would in no way be compulsory medical treatment. It would be a requirement of the job. If you don't want it don't apply.
 

Yew

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Should it happen it will almost certainly be for new starters and therefore would in no way be compulsory medical treatment. It would be a requirement of the job. If you don't want it don't apply.
Surely you can see the cognitive dissonance of 'no way be compulsory medical treatment' and 'requirement of the job'.
 

Bertie the bus

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No I can't. People aren't forced into applying to be a care worker. It is their choice, therefore you can't claim anybody is being subject to compulsory medical treatment because they are not.
 

AlterEgo

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Mandating vaccines for work in this way is gross overreach. Naturally, this impacts the lowest paid and most vulnerable workers, who, as always, never get to say no.

I’ve been there and done care work and got the t-shirt.
 

HSTEd

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Well this is not going to help the ongoing staffing crisis in social care.

It is also almost certainly the thin end of the wedge.
It will be required for every significant job by the end of the year.

It will then be a case of submit or starve.
 

Horizon22

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This is an interesting concept but a very slippery slope. I know for instance that many care workers are BAME (disproportionately so) and in London vaccination rates across some boroughs are less than 50% for care workers, which tallies with general scepticism and lower uptake sadly in BAME communities.
 

AlterEgo

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A fundamental cornerstone of western enlightenment is that a person is sovereign over their own body and medical interventions, and this is a red line.
 

Cowley

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A fundamental cornerstone of western enlightenment is that a person is sovereign over their own body and medical interventions, and this is a red line.

Yep. Couldn’t agree more.
 

Bertie the bus

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A fundamental cornerstone of western enlightenment is that a person is sovereign over their own body and medical interventions, and this is a red line.
So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.
 

Watershed

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The problem is that most people will be cheering for this kind of stuff from the rooftops - it is well-known that care homes saw a significant proportion of all deaths with/of Covid deaths.

But as others have said, even if we begrudgingly accept forced vaccination in this case, this is about as blatant of a slippery slope as it gets.

Where will the next vaccination compulsory part of life be? All NHS staff? What about all 70+ year olds - we wouldn't possibly want them to put our sacred NHS at risk. And on it goes.

I certainly don't think that it is justifiable to be forced to take a vaccine that is still under emergency authorisation.
 

HSTEd

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So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others?
Responsibility to others as a justification to this is an incredibly slippery slope. The same logic requires that all people only act in ways that optimises for societal benefit to the absence of all other considerations.

We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.

The list of people even that slightly more tightly drawn set of criteria can be used to trap runs to potentially millions and millions of people.

The cold blooded fact is, very few QALY are lost from deaths in care homes.
Care Homes are defacto hospices, median survival is only 14 months.
 

Gloster

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Having recently spent over a year in a care home, I will throw in my two-pennies worth. Few people are going to become carers if they have not got a caring nature. It involves hard physical labour, dealing with people’s bodily functions, long periods of having to maintain extreme patience, tedious but vital routine, and occasional panics. And all for an absolute pittance. Those that can’t cope with all that or see being a care worker through the staged pictures in brochures (happy carer laughing along with a sweet old lady sitting in an armchair with a cup of tea) don’t last long. Even those who can sometimes reach a point where they have to quit the job for a period to regain their equilibrium.

Working in the pandemic meant wearing a mask all day, and changing into apron and gloves, and changing the mask each time they moved from one room to another. Even outside work they had to rearrange their travel arrangements and personal life to minimise their risk of catching Covid. I think that many will welcome the opportunity to get back to some sort of normality, as will the residents. I do wonder if the death of two of the old ladies on my landing shortly before I left five months into the pandemic had anything to do with the strangeness of the situation and the lack of visitors. One, at least, seemed to be more upset than usual on her confused days.

I agree that there is a moral aspect to compunction, and telling someone to get a vaccine or lose their job is questionable. But, medicine is different, and always has been (and I consider care homes to be part of medicine). I think that it is acceptable to make it compulsory for carers and medical staff, but it should not go further. I know that other examples will be given: opticians might be seen as a profession that get close to people, so why shouldn’t they be forced to be vaccinated. No, the line should be drawn as tightly as possible.
 

Bikeman78

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The cold blooded fact is, very few QALY are lost from deaths in care homes.
Care Homes are defacto hospices, median survival is only 14 months.
When I reach the point that I can no longer wash, dress and feed myself, I'll be hoping for something like Covid to finish me off. Sounds way more appealing than some of the alternatives.
 

bramling

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Surely you can see the cognitive dissonance of 'no way be compulsory medical treatment' and 'requirement of the job'.

A difficult one. I can see there is a case for care home staff, if (1) care home residents are likely to be less well protected AND if (2) the vaccines are found to have a worthwhile effect in reducing transmission, as opposed to just suppressing symptoms.

I don’t think it’s necessarily a big problem to make it a requirement for new starters, in the same way that there are for example medical requirements for many railway jobs.

I’d still feel highly uneasy about it though, as it sets a dodgy precedent. You can bet there would be other businesses who would follow.
 

kez19

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So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.


Who is to say that once the Covid jab is mandatory they’ll say take the flu jab too and that be mandatory next? This is a slippery slope and it should always be personal choice, why don’t we just make the elites take the jabs first than us as guinea pigs? (public)

I have worked in care for 12 years 6 voluntary and 6 as of now, but this same consequence will have an impact on those that volunteer too (guess no one has thought of that either but it will). In all my life including getting the Covid vaccine (didn’t want to but felt I had too), this feels wrong but I guess as long as you believe the governments media and politicians we are safe from Covid when in fact it’s far from the truth.
 
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chris11256

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I wonder what legislation they’ll use, as their favourite public health act doesn’t allow compulsory treatments?
 

Bayum

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It’s interesting because some aspects of nursing absolutely mandate the requirement for you to be vaccinated - oncology, transplant, geriatric medicine etc.
Considering that these workers are in contact with the most vulnerable and would potentially start an outbreak on a hospital ward or in a care home, I can see the necessity.
 

Mintona

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I think Pimlico Plumbers recently said that their staff would have to be vaccinated as well I believe.

‘The railway’ have sent out a letter saying it is an individuals choice whether they want to be or not.
 

Bantamzen

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So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.
Vulnerable people that will be offered / given a vaccine? What exactly is the responsibility you are referring to here?
 

Cowley

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So western enlightenment says nothing about responsibility to others? If you are a care worker you should care about the people you look after. Needlessly putting their lives at risk isn’t caring. We’re not talking about brickies or mechanics but people who have prolonged close contact with vulnerable people. If you don't care don't go into care work.

Having a daughter and a stepdaughter who work in a care home for younger people with learning disabilities and who worked all the way through this with very little in the way of protection, but have had to put their own lives on hold for the sake of protecting the people they look after for most of the last year I find your comments utterly patronising and distasteful.
 

WelshBluebird

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Worth saying that the question of mandatory vaccinations for health / care staff is not a new thing.
As already mentioned a few posts up, there are already some jobs where certain vaccinations are needed.
And the question of if the flu vaccine should be compulsory or not comes up pretty much every single year.
So whilst yes this government has got a massively authoritarian streak - I don't think bringing up the idea of compulsory vaccinations for health and care staff is really part of that as it is a discussion that happens every single year anyway.
 
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