Mark 1 coaches - how many people

[Andy873]

Hi,

I'm just trying to work out how many people could sit on a Mark 1 carriage say around 1955.

I can find out most of the details about them but it doesn't state how many people a single carriage could seat.

Does anyone know please?
Thanks,
Andy.

 

[CW2]

Depends on 1st or 2nd class, open or compartment, with or without brake van.

Typically a MK1 coach had 8 seating bays, so 2nd class would have 64 seats, 1st class 48.

 

[Polarbear]

Pretty much what CW2 has said in post 2. There were a good number of different permutations of Mk1 carriages so the number of seats per coach could vary, but 64 would be about the maximum number.

 

[Ken H]

Some data here (Links to different types). not complete list I think

(Link is to external site with a long write up on the Mk 1, and links to pages for some Mk 1 type data)

Passenger Equipment Database - BR Mk1 coaches

Auran rail database, BR Mk1 Coach Stock

www.auran.com

 

[Andy873]

Pretty much what CW2 has said in post 2. There were a good number of different permutations of Mk1 carriages so the number of seats per coach could vary, but 64 would be about the maximum number.

Thanks everyone!

And I guess you could squeeze a few more standing?

My reason for asking is this:

In 1955 Mullards (a large electrical company) opened a factory in Simonstone (Lancashire). They asked BR if the 6:32 from Blackburn could be run 10 minutes earlier so a possible 400 staff could get to work on time.

Working on the assumption that say half would have used the train to get there I am guessing around 200 people would need to be moved.

BR said that it was impossible, but I know the station there could have easily accommodated 5 carriages.

BR by the way, withdrew the stop at the station the day the factory opened!

Thanks,
Andy.

 

[xotGD]

Don't forget the non-corridor commuter coaches. You could really cram people in on those sitting 6 on each side.

 

[Andy873]

Don't forget the non-corridor commuter coaches. You could really cram people in on those sitting 6 on each side.

Thanks,

So really, you are all telling me a station that could accommodate 5 carriages could have easily coped with an extra 200 passengers on top of the usual 100?

Andy.

 

[Gloster]

A Mark 1 Corridor SK had a capacity of 48, although Southern and Western Region vehicles had a capacity of 64, possibly from their introduction. Some of the non-corridor coaches had a capacity of 120.

in 1955 it is quite possible that LMS design vehicles were still in use on the service. Possibly even pre-grouping ones.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

in 1955 it is quite possible that LMS design vehicles were still in use on the service. Possibly even pre-grouping ones.

That echoes my thinking, Mk1s from new in the 50's would have been predominantly introduced onto higher profile services whilst local trains in Lancashire almost certainly soldiered on with older stock (LMS second class stock had 7 bays of seating - 56 seats in an open second and the compartment version would have had 42) and quite possibly non-corridor stock (6 a side as noted above). I imagine some of the published photographic books covering that era will cover similar trains if not that particular one.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Aug 2021 ==

So really, you are all telling me a station that could accommodate 5 carriages could have easily coped with an extra 200 passengers on top of the usual 100?

The train could probably cope but the station platform might have been pretty much rammed! Not forgetting that some stations were served by trains longer than the platforms. n

 

[Ken H]

...

The train could probably cope but the station platform might have been pretty much rammed! Not forgetting that some stations were served by trains longer than the platforms. n

I remember trains stopping at short platforms. Station staff giving hand /bardic light signals to the driver to move up. Passengers with heads out of the droplights to say they wanted to get off. Settle comes to mind but I am sure there were others.
that was 1980's

 

[Taunton]

Putting aside that, if 400 employees, probably only about 40, if that, might commute, by train, just from the Blackburn direction, the "back line" from Blackburn to Burnley probably never saw a corridor coach in 1955. The BR standard non-corridor had 10 compartments, theoretically 6 a side so 120 places, but nobody (apart from schoolchildren) really sat more than 5-across on the bench seats. One extra such coach would have been way more than sufficient, and given the service was running down the existing formation likely had enough room anyway. Pre-nationalisation stock, which was probably dominant on the line at the time, was similar.

Rather than try to change the train times, I wonder why the factory didn't start work 10 minutes later. This was quite common in places where there was a limited train service, to fit in with the timetable.

 

[The exile]

Thanks,

So really, you are all telling me a station that could accommodate 5 carriages could have easily coped with an extra 200 passengers on top of the usual 100?

Andy.

Not if it was already scheduled to close!

 

[30907]

in 1955 it is quite possible that LMS design vehicles were still in use on the service. Possibly even pre-grouping ones.

Almost certainly, and non corridor.
I would put the capacity of a 5 car train with a small amount of first class at slightly below 400 (say 38 third class compartments).

 

[delt1c]

Pretty much what CW2 has said in post 2. There were a good number of different permutations of Mk1 carriages so the number of seats per coach could vary, but 64 would be about the maximum number.

1st class had 7bays asp seated 42, 2nd class TSO seated 64, SO 42 , SK ( 4 aside) 64 , 3 aside 48. Then as others have said there were many other variations

 

[Snow1964]

Most of the mk1 corridor seconds (actually third class until renamed second) had 6 seats per compartment, but when busy the guard would come round and shout (no PA then) to put the armrests up, so could get 8 in.

As previously stated, those for Southern and Western omitted the intermediate armrests so sat 8 per compartment by default.

However pre-grouping design coaches continued to be built for 3-4 years after nationalisation upto about 1950 or 1951, so unlikely a local train would have been mk1s in 1955

 

[ac6000cw]

In 1955 Mullards (a large electrical company) opened a factory in Simonstone (Lancashire).

Minor point - the company name was 'Mullard' and it was primarily an electronics component manufacturing company (and a subsidiary of Philips since 1929). Simonstone specialised in TV display tube (CRT) manufacture, eventually closing when the TV market moved to LCD displays in the early 2000's.

 

[Ken H]

Minor point - the company name was 'Mullard' and it was primarily an electronics component manufacturing company (and a subsidiary of Philips since 1929). Simonstone specialised in TV display tube (CRT) manufacture, eventually closing when the TV market moved to LCD displays in the early 2000's.

I remember Dad buying Mullard valves for his steam radio. As a kid, loved looking in the back at the red glow.

 

[randyrippley]

Thanks everyone!

And I guess you could squeeze a few more standing?

My reason for asking is this:

In 1955 Mullards (a large electrical company) opened a factory in Simonstone (Lancashire). They asked BR if the 6:32 from Blackburn could be run 10 minutes earlier so a possible 400 staff could get to work on time.

Working on the assumption that say half would have used the train to get there I am guessing around 200 people would need to be moved.

BR said that it was impossible, but I know the station there could have easily accommodated 5 carriages.

BR by the way, withdrew the stop at the station the day the factory opened!

Thanks,
Andy.

It's accepted local wisdom that BR didn't want the business as it would have affected closure plans. The line was being deliberately run down

 

[swt_passenger]

There’s a load of BR rolling stock drawing books on this modelling group website:

Barrowmore Model Railway Group (BMRG)

I think there’s a number of different editions of each volume, I haven’t checked which is the best for the OP’s purposes but there’ll probably be something useful…

 

[Gloster]

There’s a load of BR rolling stock drawing books on this modelling group website:

Barrowmore Model Railway Group (BMRG)

I think there’s a number of different editions of each volume, I haven’t checked which is the best for the OP’s purposes but there’ll probably be something useful…

I don’t think the Diagram books on the Barrowmore Site include pre-BR stock.

 

[Dr Hoo]

From a quick check of contemporary Bradshaws, the peak-only train services (plus lunchtime extras) via Simonstone still tied up two complete diagrams over two shifts in 1955. With very short distance fares it must have been a financial basket case, especially after the 1955 Footplate Strike forced many people to try buses.

(Apologies that this is rather off-thread for rolling stock design but it seems irrelevant to be worrying about the seating capacity of particular coaches. It was the locomotives and staff that would have put the writing on the wall.)

 

[Rescars]

1st class had 7bays asp seated 42, 2nd class TSO seated 64, SO 42 , SK ( 4 aside) 64 , 3 aside 48. Then as others have said there were many other variations

As an aside, by the 1970s and possibly earlier, the TSOs had a table missing from a bay at each end (to accomodate wheelchairs perhaps?). When used as dining saloons the capacity wás thus reduced from 64 to 56. The consist for a full dining special on race days etc of 11 carriages comprised two TSOs each side of an RK kitchen van and this was duplicated, plus a BG for the guard. So 448 diners in total - and the trains known in the trade as 448s in consequence.

 

[peteb]

I recall plenty of Merrymaker Excursions in the 70s and 80s where folks packed into MK1 SKs: ten of us in one compartment on a Birmingham to York day trip for example, though that was our choice. Not every compartment was so tightly packed and of course people used to stand in the corridors to smoke or to lean out of the windows so the 64 seat capacity of a southern region SK could often be well exceeded, especially on summer weekends.

 

[Gloster]

From a bit of a trawl of the net it seems probable that when the factory at Simonstone was opened in 1955 some of the staff were transferred or promoted from the factory at Blackburn. One can understand British Railways’ lack of enthusiasm about a new traffic that might delay closure proposals, but could well tail off as people transferred back to Blackburn, moved to the area or bought cars.

 

[Springs Branch]

While we have the attention of Mark 1 aficionados, can I ask about the BCK Brake Corridor Composites?

These were the stalwarts inevitably found on very short loco-hauled trains at the extremities* of the network (Georgemas Jn - Thurso portions, or Fort William - Mallaig in winter), or on some main-line overnight trains comprising a string of newspaper or postal vans, which needed some nominal passenger accommodation.

As many will know, the BCK had three Second & two First Class compartments plus a Guard's van. My questions are:-

1) Were all Smoking / Non-Smoking permutation provided? i.e. was one of the 1st compartments Smoking, the other labelled Non-Smoking, and similar in 2nd?

2) Based on the bodyside profiles of BCKs I've seen in photos, were there two toilets provided in the one coach?
I assume there would be zero difference between the toilet facilities located at the First Class and Second Class ends of the coach - just a case of The Major not needing to mix with the riff-raff when he went to spend a penny.


* or between Clapham Junction & Kensington Olympia on the Kenny Belle.

 

[hexagon789]

) Were all Smoking / Non-Smoking permutation provided? i.e. was one of the 1st compartments Smoking, the other labelled Non-Smoking, and similar in 2nd?

Yes, originally one N.S. in First and Third (later Second) - the two innermost adjoining compartments in each class.

2) Based on the bodyside profiles of BCKs I've seen in photos, were there two toilets provided in the one coach?
I assume there would be zero difference between the toilet facilities located at the First Class and Second Class ends of the coach - just a case of The Major not needing to mix with the riff-raff when he went to spend a penny.

Identical, both 3.5 ft wide and mirror images of each other. The compartments themselves were 7ft 2in in First and 6ft 3in wide in Third (Second)

 

[Andy873]

From a bit of a trawl of the net it seems probable that when the factory at Simonstone was opened in 1955 some of the staff were transferred or promoted from the factory at Blackburn. One can understand British Railways’ lack of enthusiasm about a new traffic that might delay closure proposals, but could well tail off as people transferred back to Blackburn, moved to the area or bought cars.

Thanks for all the replies.

I was simply working on a theory that it was indeed possible for BR to accept the increase of passengers to the factory.

My own suspicion is back in 1955 or indeed a year or two before BR had already made their mind up to close this branch line. The refusal to run the 6:32 am train ten minutes earlier plus the day the factory opened the actual stop at Simonstone was removed shows the intent to close the line come what may.

This decision would have come from, or at least I am led to believe from the Branch lines committee - and that subject I will ask.

Thanks everyone!

Andy.

 

[Taunton]

Just looking at some features of this service around 1955 gives good reasons why patronage had fallen away.

The new Mullard factory was built on a large out-of-town site, not far from the station, which had also in Victorian ways been built nowhere near the settlement of Simonstone itself, being in open country.

The road to the station had (and still has in parts) no pavements, so for those without cars from Simonstone village would be pretty useless - and of course for those with cars, now likewise. The no pavements sections include the walk from the station to the factory entrance.

The factory entrance is built on the south side of the big site, opposite side to, and a considerable walk from, the station. It's obviously been built to face the main Blackburn to Burnley road.

The main road has a bus service every 20 minutes or so from Blackburn and from Burnley, stopping on the main road at the factory gate. It would also stop all the way out from Blackburn where more convenient to passengers' houses, instead of just the central station. I read an account of just this route a while back from someone who long ago went to school on it. Apparently in the morning as many vehicles as required were provided, so although timetabled still every 20 minutes, 3 or 4 vehicles might be operating a peak time run. That's the sort of flexibility rail operators seemed unable to provide.

Morning trains from Blackburn stop at Simonstone at 0551, 0802, and then 1228. The bus is every 20 minutes. The train under discussion, the 0632 from Blackburn, is actually nonstop at Simonstone.

Road from station to factory today. Even now, no pavement : Simonstone Ln - Google Maps

Train timetable 1955 :

Bus timetable 1965, including specific "Mullard factory" stop

 

[Andy873]

Just looking at some features of this service around 1955 gives good reasons why patronage had fallen away.

The new Mullard factory was built on a large out-of-town site, not far from the station, which had also in Victorian ways been built nowhere near the settlement of Simonstone itself, being in open country.

The road to the station had (and still has in parts) no pavements, so for those without cars from Simonstone village would be pretty useless - and of course for those with cars, now likewise. The no pavements sections include the walk from the station to the factory entrance.

The factory entrance is built on the south side of the big site, opposite side to, and a considerable walk from, the station. It's obviously been built to face the main Blackburn to Burnley road.

The main road has a bus service every 20 minutes or so from Blackburn and from Burnley, stopping on the main road at the factory gate. It would also stop all the way out from Blackburn where more convenient to passengers' houses, instead of just the central station. I read an account of just this route a while back from someone who long ago went to school on it. Apparently in the morning as many vehicles as required were provided, so although timetabled still every 20 minutes, 3 or 4 vehicles might be operating a peak time run. That's the sort of flexibility rail operators seemed unable to provide.

Morning trains from Blackburn stop at Simonstone at 0551, 0802, and then 1228. The bus is every 20 minutes. The train under discussion, the 0632 from Blackburn, is actually nonstop at Simonstone.

Road from station to factory today. Even now, no pavement : Simonstone Ln - Google Maps

Train timetable 1955 :

Bus timetable 1965, including specific "Mullard factory" stop

Thanks for that.

The revised timetable you have posted is the one after they removed the stop at Simonstone.

Points are:
1. It's the only one on the timetable that does not stop at Simonstone.

2. The L & Y society state it stopped there at this time until the day the factory opened.

 

[30907]

Thanks for that.

The revised timetable you have posted is the one after they removed the stop at Simonstone.

Points are:
1. It's the only one on the timetable that does not stop at Simonstone.

2. The L & Y society state it stopped there at this time until the day the factory opened.

The stop is certainly shown in 1947.

Does history relate how Mullards expected their employees to get back home? There seems to be no train between 2.10 and 4.45pm...