Mark 2 carriage types

[Helvellyn]

It is noticeable that when BR introduced the Mark 2 coach there was a marked reduction in the number of coach types, with only six types in all and at most five being built in only three of the Marks (2, 2C and 2D).

Mark	FO	FK	BFK	TSO	SO	BSO
2	​	X​	X​	X​	X​	X​
2A		X​	X​	X​		X​
2B		X​	X​	X​
2C	X​	X​	X​	X​		X​
2D	X​	X​	X​	X​		X​
2E	X​			X​		X​
2F	X​			X​		X​

The lack of Mark 2 Sleeping Cars is pretty much understood to be down to the fact many Mark 1 Sleeping Cars were built quite late, plus with only one revenue earning trip per day they were not high usage. Ultimately replacing them with the Mark 3A vehicles made sense. Also, unlike day vehicles there were not really secondary markets to cascade these specialist vehicles to so modernisation by introducing new vehicles would have condemned many to scrap.

With regards catering vehicles, again many were built late within the Mark 1 build period. As with Sleeping Cars, these were specialist vehicles and many were low usage. The 1970s saw modernisation with the RBR upgrade to the 16xx/17xx RKs (converted already from 3xx RFs), 16xx/17xx RBs and 19xx RUs to bring much more standardisation to the catering vehicles. First Class meal service was more taking place in FOs, and the refurbished RBRs offered an improved (not a universal view!) accommodation for dining before a custoemr returned to their seats.

But to the point of this thread. What drove the fact that there were no new build SKs, CKs or BSKs Mark 2 vehicles? All were built in large numbers as Mark 1s (Nearly 2,300 SKs, 1,300 CKs and 1,500 BSKs) yet never seem to have been considered as a Mark 2 version. My own thought on this is that it was the Second Class compartment that was the deciding factor. The Eastern, London Midland, North Eastern and Scottish regions had all favoured six-seater compartments, with folding armrests that meant they could be used to seat 8. The Western and Southern Region just had 8-seater compartments. So whilst a TSO would seat 64, an SK would seat 48 with armrests or to get 64 it was effectively bench seats with no armrests. Therefore, I am making an assumption that economics came into play and a Mark 2 Second Class corridor design would just be too low capacity - or it would mean no armrests or tables to match the capacity of a TSO or BSO.

I guess a Cso could have been built, with First Class in compartments and Second Class in an open saloon, but it seems that wasn't desired. Equally, why was the FO design not available until the 2Cs came on stream?

Definitions:
BFK Brake First Corridor
FK First Corridor
FO First Open
BCK Brake Composite Corridor
CK Composite Corridor
Cso Composite Semi Open
BSK Brake Second Corridor
BSO Brake Second Open
SK Second Corridor
SO Second Open (2+1 seating)
TSO Tourist Second Open (2+2 seating)
RBR Restaurant Buffet Refurbished
RB Restaurant Buffet
RF Restaurant First
RK Restaurant [Buffet] Kitchen
RU Restaurant Unclassified

 

[MarlowDonkey]

​

What drove the fact that there were no new build SKs, CKs or BSKs Mark 2 vehicles?

From what I recall of the period, at around the same time British Railways became British Rail, it announced that in future all Second Class vehicles would be Open. That's as well as painting everything blue. The prototype xp64 stock was about that time as well, so the changeover will have coincided with or maybe preceded decision. Later on with MK3s it went even further so that the same window spacing was used on both First and Second with even fewer bodyshell designs being needed.

 

[Snow1964]

Can someone please remind me what the difference was between a mk2 TSO and SO, thanks

 

[JonathanH]

Can someone please remind me what the difference was between a mk2 TSO and SO, thanks

2+2 seating in a TSO, 2+1 seating in an SO.

 

[delt1c]

Can someone please remind me what the difference was between a mk2 TSO and SO, thanks

The SO’s were built for 2nd class dining but soon became general usage. Due to their 48 seat configuration we’re often used in football and special rakes.

 

[JonathanH]

Isn't another question here what the initial deployment of the fleet was - where were Mark 1 open carriages typically used and where was compartment stock used? Were the open Mark 1s more likely to be replaced directly by Mark 2s rather than the corridor carriages? Were corridor coaches typically for secondary routes or used alongside open coaches?

I'd be very interested to know what the distribution of coaches to routes was during the 1960s / early 1970s when Mark 2s were being introduced. I'm guessing that air-conditioned mark 2s replaced PV mark 2s on the main express routes rather than replacing mark 1s.

 

[Helvellyn]

From what I recall of the period, at around the same time British Railways became British Rail, it announced that in future all Second Class vehicles would be Open. That's as well as painting everything blue. The prototype xp64 stock was about that time as well, so the changeover will have coincided with or maybe preceded decision. Later on with MK3s it went even further so that the same window spacing was used on both First and Second with even fewer bodyshell designs being needed.

There were SKs built for the XP64 set though, but possibly feedback suggested a preference for saloon stock? Also interesting that corridor stock remained for First Class until the small batch of 2C FOs, but both the 2Cs and 2Ds still had a substantial number of corridor Firsts built.

 

[Helvellyn]

Isn't another question here what the initial deployment of the fleet was - where were Mark 1 open carriages typically used and where was compartment stock used? Were the open Mark 1s more likely to be replaced directly by Mark 2s rather than the corridor carriages? Were corridor coaches typically for secondary routes or used alongside open coaches?

I'd be very interested to know what the distribution of coaches to routes was during the 1960s / early 1970s when Mark 2s were being introduced. I'm guessing that air-conditioned mark 2s replaced PV mark 2s on the main express routes rather than replacing mark 1s.

The original production Mark 2 FKs (Lot No.s 30733/30734) were delivered to the Eastern, London Midland and Southern Regions in place of Mark 1 FKs. They wore maroon (E and M) or green (S). They were delivered alongside Mark 1 CKs (Lot No.s 30729/30730) and BCKs (Lot No.s 30731/30732) also built at Derby,

The production fleet Mark 2s, delivered in Blue/Grey were for the West Coast electrification (including the Pullman cars in reverse colours).

The Mark 2As were for the Eastern Region and Western Region.

The Mark 2Bs were for the Western Region, but they also gained a batch of 30 Mark 2C BSOs to work with them (no Mark 2B BSOs were built). A small number of FKs went to the Eastern Region.

The Mark 2Cs were for the London Midland Region, bar the aforementioned BSOs. I believe they were the mainstay of the Anglo-Scottish services - certainly photos of Class 50s on the Northern section of the WCML have many sets made up mainly of Mark 2C stock.

The Mark 2Ds were for the Eastern Region. However, some FOs, FKs and BFKs were built for the London Midland Region but to operate with Mark 2E TSOs (Lot No. 30837) and BSOs (Lot No. 30838).

The later build Mark 2Es (FOs and TSOs) were for the Western Region, with a small number of later build vehicles going to the Eastern Region.

The Mark 2Fs went to the Eastern, Western and London Midland Regions.

 

[30907]

Isn't another question here what the initial deployment of the fleet was - where were Mark 1 open carriages typically used and where was compartment stock used? Were the open Mark 1s more likely to be replaced directly by Mark 2s rather than the corridor carriages? Were corridor coaches typically for secondary routes or used alongside open coaches?

From personal memories most top class trains had predominantly SKs - the Southern post WW2 was unusual IIRC in having semi-open vehicles (classed BSK nevertheless ) in most of its best trains, but still had far more SK than TSO.
And the LM and ER with 3-a-side compartments would generally have preferred SKs for top trains.
Once Mk2s were built in quantity they tended to be formed in complete sets, just as Mk1s had been, SOs often being used as Restaurants.
As for FKs, IIRC the move to FOs coincided with the first attempts at at-seat catering, but also with the advent of aircon, which has alway proved difficult in compartment stock.

 

[hexagon789]

It is noticeable that when BR introduced the Mark 2 coach there was a marked reduction in the number of coach types, with only six types in all and at most five being built in only three of the Marks (2, 2C and 2D).

Mark	FO	FK	BFK	TSO	SO	BSO
2	​	X​	X​	X​	X​	X​
2A		X​	X​	X​		X​
2B		X​	X​	X​
2C	X​	X​	X​	X​		X​
2D	X​	X​	X​	X​		X​
2E	X​			X​		X​
2F	X​			X​		X​

The lack of Mark 2 Sleeping Cars is pretty much understood to be down to the fact many Mark 1 Sleeping Cars were built quite late, plus with only one revenue earning trip per day they were not high usage. Ultimately replacing them with the Mark 3A vehicles made sense. Also, unlike day vehicles there were not really secondary markets to cascade these specialist vehicles to so modernisation by introducing new vehicles would have condemned many to scrap.

With regards catering vehicles, again many were built late within the Mark 1 build period. As with Sleeping Cars, these were specialist vehicles and many were low usage. The 1970s saw modernisation with the RBR upgrade to the 16xx/17xx RKs (converted already from 3xx RFs), 16xx/17xx RBs and 19xx RUs to bring much more standardisation to the catering vehicles. First Class meal service was more taking place in FOs, and the refurbished RBRs offered an improved (not a universal view!) accommodation for dining before a custoemr returned to their seats.

But to the point of this thread. What drove the fact that there were no new build SKs, CKs or BSKs Mark 2 vehicles? All were built in large numbers as Mark 1s (Nearly 2,300 SKs, 1,300 CKs and 1,500 BSKs) yet never seem to have been considered as a Mark 2 version. My own thought on this is that it was the Second Class compartment that was the deciding factor. The Eastern, London Midland, North Eastern and Scottish regions had all favoured six-seater compartments, with folding armrests that meant they could be used to seat 8. The Western and Southern Region just had 8-seater compartments. So whilst a TSO would seat 64, an SK would seat 48 with armrests or to get 64 it was effectively bench seats with no armrests. Therefore, I am making an assumption that economics came into play and a Mark 2 Second Class corridor design would just be too low capacity - or it would mean no armrests or tables to match the capacity of a TSO or BSO.

I guess a Cso could have been built, with First Class in compartments and Second Class in an open saloon, but it seems that wasn't desired. Equally, why was the FO design not available until the 2Cs came on stream?

I always assumed that no Mk2 Composites were built from new because the Mk2s went to the best trains as new which required more first class accommodation and while Mk1 CKs were certainly no stranger to front-line expresses when they were new there was a desire to reduce the number of different vehicle types with the Mk2s and presumably it was decided that FK and BFK vehicles suited the requisite amount of first class provision sufficiently.

There were though new-build Mk2D composites for CIÉ in Ireland as well as the mid1980s conversions of Mk2C FKs to CK on the Scottish Region for Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness trains.

 

[randyrippley]

Surely composites weren't built in numbers because they made the separation of trains into 1st/2nd class discrete zones more difficult.
With a composite both classes are jumbled up, making class segregation impossible

 

[hexagon789]

Surely composites weren't built in numbers because they made the separation of trains into 1st/2nd class discrete zones more difficult.
With a composite both classes are jumbled up, making class segregation impossible

I suppose it depends on orientation. In BR carriage working books it stated that any vehicles with first class and second class accommodation or brake firsts should be marshalled with the first class areas adjoining. Obviously that didn't always happen in practice but presumably they did consider how to maintain some distinction of class separation hence the working instruction.

Notably in Ireland, before the advent of the Mk3s and re-seating/declassification of the Mk2D fleet, the Mk2D composites would be marshalled with the Super-Standard accommodation next to the generator van and the Standard accommodation next to the diner. The same arrangement was continued in later years with the Mk3 fleet.

 

[delt1c]

I believe there was a CK and BSK proposed for the MkII however nothing of it and as we all know 2nd class was all open saloon

 

[GRALISTAIR]

From what I recall of the period, at around the same time British Railways became British Rail, it announced that in future all Second Class vehicles would be Open. That's as well as painting everything blue. The prototype xp64 stock was about that time as well, so the changeover will have coincided with or maybe preceded decision. Later on with MK3s it went even further so that the same window spacing was used on both First and Second with even fewer bodyshell designs being needed.

I distinctly remember - DAA - Anglo Scottish Freighter- the stock was definitely Mark 2 and I sat in a compartment - First Class as I recall.

 

[hexagon789]

I distinctly remember - DAA - Anglo Scottish Freighter- the stock was definitely Mark 2 and I sat in a compartment - First Class as I recall.

There were no compartment second class Mk2 vehicles from new (some Firsts would be converted/declassified), but there were first class compartment Mk2s right up to the Mk2D-type, which was the last compartment coaching stock to be built for BR excepting sleeping cars.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

OK - I sat in a Mk 2 First Class compartment on that trip.

 

[Cowley]

There were no compartment second class Mk2 vehicles from new (some Firsts would be converted/declassified), but there were first class compartment Mk2s right up to the Mk2D-type, which was the last compartment coaching stock to be built for BR excepting sleeping cars.

(Swoops in and points out that class 442s had a few compartments when built, before anyone else gets in there. )

 

[hexagon789]

(Swoops in and points out that class 442s had a few compartments when built, before anyone else gets in there. )

As one must of course!

Though to be fair sir, they are neither Mk2 nor loco-hauled but still very nice trains nonetheless!

 

[Cowley]

As one must of course!

Though to be fair sir, they are neither Mk2 nor loco-hauled but still very nice trains nonetheless!

Ah ya got me.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I distinctly remember - DAA - Anglo Scottish Freighter- the stock was definitely Mark 2 and I sat in a compartment - First Class as I recall.

Nothing to do with the discussion but that's a sixties steam bashing acronym - is that the sense you're using it in? (I was there, too - but it wasn't complimentary...)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As I recall DAA was the name of the company that ran and organized the tour.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Six Belles Junction gives it as D.A.A. Tours so my DAA acronym was possibly not quite precise

 

[Merle Haggard]

As I recall DAA was the name of the company that ran and organized the tour.

Thanks (and for the 2nd post). In the sixties, extreme steam bashers were universally known as 'D.A.A.s' by the less obsessed ones; it was not a complimentary term although, curiously, 'D.A.A. Re-unions' were advertised in the enthusiast press. Perhaps that's where the company got the name from.

The D stands for Daft; the last word is unrepeatable in polite company. The middle word is very short and not at all rude, but would rather give the game away.

I haven't heard it since about 1970!

 

[edwin_m]

I always assumed that no Mk2 Composites were built from new because the Mk2s went to the best trains as new which required more first class accommodation and while Mk1 CKs were certainly no stranger to front-line expresses when they were new there was a desire to reduce the number of different vehicle types with the Mk2s and presumably it was decided that FK and BFK vehicles suited the requisite amount of first class provision sufficiently.

At the time the Mk2s came in, the sorts of secondary service where half a coach of first class was an appropriate provision (short train and/or not many business passengers) would have been going over to standard class only, or worked by multiple units, or disappeared entirely.

 

[hexagon789]

At the time the Mk2s came in, the sorts of secondary service where half a coach of first class was an appropriate provision (short train and/or not many business passengers) would have been going over to standard class only, or worked by multiple units, or disappeared entirely.

Many even fairly minor services seemed to retain first class until the late-1970s. Certainly when comparing my 1976/7 and 1980/81 Scottish Region timetables a whole host of services have first class in the former timetable which are then standard class only in the latter.

 

[edwin_m]

Many even fairly minor services seemed to retain first class until the late-1970s. Certainly when comparing my 1976/7 and 1980/81 Scottish Region timetables a whole host of services have first class in the former timetable which are then standard class only in the latter.

Perhaps then it's a consequence rather than a cause of the lack of any first class accommodation shorter than a whole coach. Mk1s would have been dropping out of even secondary services by that time (I was a reasonably frequent user of an Edinburgh-Aberdeen train about that time which was early Mk2s with Mk1 buffet and occasional SK in the set).

 

[Merle Haggard]

One of the shortcomings of the early Mk2s (not air conditioned, but heating and cooling by fans pushing air into the saloons and sliding vents) hasn't been mentioned. An early Mk2 was included in one of the Euston & Northampton loco-hauled sets, but because of the comparatively low mileage (although, at times, high speed!) the dynamo/battery arrangement had insufficient reserves. This meant that it was dark and cold most of the time, and presumably is why the NSE Paddington and Euston loco hauled sets were amongst the last Mk1 100mph workings.

 

[Helvellyn]

One of the shortcomings of the early Mk2s (not air conditioned, but heating and cooling by fans pushing air into the saloons and sliding vents) hasn't been mentioned. An early Mk2 was included in one of the Euston & Northampton loco-hauled sets, but because of the comparatively low mileage (although, at times, high speed!) the dynamo/battery arrangement had insufficient reserves. This meant that it was dark and cold most of the time, and presumably is why the NSE Paddington and Euston loco hauled sets were amongst the last Mk1 100mph workings.

I thought this was a problem that affected the Mark 2Bs and 2Cs the most rather than the 2As and 2s. The Paddington sets certainly had plenty of 2A FKs and BFKs in them, whilst the Northampton sets were definitely a last outpost of the Mark 1 CK.

 

[hexagon789]

Perhaps then it's a consequence rather than a cause of the lack of any first class accommodation shorter than a whole coach. Mk1s would have been dropping out of even secondary services by that time (I was a reasonably frequent user of an Edinburgh-Aberdeen train about that time which was early Mk2s with Mk1 buffet and occasional SK in the set).

I had a look through some carriage working books this morning, there does appear to be some use of Mk2 BFK to replace a Mk1 CK. The West Highland rakes for example had a Mk1 CK booked in 1976/7, by 1982 this has been replaced by a Mk2 BFK to provide first class accommodation and by 1983 these trains are now second class only.

 

[hexagon789]

I thought this was a problem that affected the Mark 2Bs and 2Cs the most rather than the 2As and 2s. The Paddington sets certainly had plenty of 2A FKs and BFKs in them, whilst the Northampton sets were definitely a last outpost of the Mark 1 CK.

From what I remember in the Harris book, the battery charging was one of a number of issues with the 2B vehicles