Marston Vale Line penalty fare question

[Bogallan]

A query some may be able answer. Is the Marston Vale line included in the Penalty fare scheme? I seem to recall this line as well as the Abbey was not included in the sheme in times past. As far as I can see there is no current (post Jan 23) map of the penalty fare stations.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

No Penalty Fares apply on that route, but do at Bletchley and Bedford for all other services.

Of course, Byelaw 18 and other legislation applies if ticketing facilities exist along the way.

 

[Bogallan]

Thank you for your reply. I thought the same as you, penalty fares were not in operation on the line, but passing Bow Brickhill this morning, a poster advising this was a penalty fare station was displayed. I cannot find anything on the LNWR website giving the limits of the Penalty fare area. I'll have to do further "digging".

 

[gordonthemoron]

Seeing as the sign to the left says to buy your ticket on the train, that seems incongruous

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Some data sources seem to imply that Bow Brickhill does actually form part of the "LM" (TOC code for West Midlands Trains) Penalty Fare scheme. I am not sure whether this is an error or a recent change, (possibly connected to the recent PF scheme changes).

The lack of a Penalty Fare map is actually a breach of their Penalty Fare scheme (assuming it's still their 10 December 2017 scheme).

 

[Watershed]

Thank you for your reply. I thought the same as you, penalty fares were not in operation on the line, but passing Bow Brickhill this morning, a poster advising this was a penalty fare station was displayed. I cannot find anything on the LNWR website giving the limits of the Penalty fare area. I'll have to do further "digging".

As silly as it may sound, it is actually possible for Penalty Fares to apply from a station without ticketing facilities. What it means is that you're entitled to board the train and buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity (onboard if a member of staff comes through selling tickets, or at your destination or interchange station); however, if you refuse to buy a ticket when given the opportunity to do so, you can be issued with a Penalty Fare (notwithstanding the lack of facilities at your starting station).

The lack of a Penalty Fare map is actually a breach of their Penalty Fare scheme (assuming it's still their 10 December 2017 scheme).

That scheme fell under the old Penalty Fares Rules from 2002, which were replaced by the Penalty Fares Regulations in 2018. There is no longer a requirement to have a formalised scheme, or to provide any sort of map - these, seemingly, all being unnecessary requirements in the eyes of the DfT.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some data sources seem to imply that Bow Brickhill does actually form part of the "LM" (TOC code for West Midlands Trains) Penalty Fare scheme. I am not sure whether this is an error or a recent change, (possibly connected to the recent PF scheme changes).

The lack of a Penalty Fare map is actually a breach of their Penalty Fare scheme (assuming it's still their 10 December 2017 scheme).

During COVID a TVM was installed at each station (yes, even Kempston Hardwick). Alongside the fact that the only way to work 230s without losing time was from the back cab so tickets were rarely checked, I seem to recall this was deliberate. That is, PFs do now apply to the line.

(Though I suspect the rail replacement buses are de-facto free, not that such things should be encouraged).

 

[Watershed]

During COVID a TVM was installed at each station (yes, even Kempston Hardwick). Alongside the fact that the only way to work 230s without losing time was from the back cab so tickets were rarely checked, I seem to recall this was deliberate. That is, PFs do now apply to the line.

(Though I suspect the rail replacement buses are de-facto free, not that such things should be encouraged).

Although the presence of TVMs is overriden (as far as Penalty Fares etc. are concerned) by the presence of the sign permitting/instructing you to buy on board.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although the presence of TVMs is overriden (as far as Penalty Fares etc. are concerned) by the presence of the sign permitting/instructing you to buy on board.

Yes, true (as such appeals would succeed), though I suspect it's an error that this wasn't removed.

There is one issue with the TVMs - they are only on one side of stations which all have level crossings and don't have footbridges. The effect of this is that you could get stranded on the wrong side and so some might be tempted to trespass so as not to miss the hourly train.

 

[Bogallan]

As well as the rear cab, the 230s could be worked from the door in the centre of the train in each carriage. There was no PA installed however for the station to be announced when "Doris" was not working.
The TVMs do not accept cash, so anybody without a smart mobile would be unable to buy a ticket, except from the guard. Incidentally, I was told the cost of each TVM was costed at £60,000 fitted each. Ouch!
I have seen quite a few times for passengers that have been stranded on the "wrong side" of the crossing, the guard has waited for the barriers to be raised whilst the passenger ran across for the train. The only exception, perhaps would be at a crossing point and one train was on time and one train late where the barriers were not raised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As well as the rear cab, the 230s could be worked from the door in the centre of the train in each carriage.

Not punctually. The main passenger doors were so slow to operate that working from the train would lose time.

 

[Bogallan]

Not punctually. The main passenger doors were so slow to operate that working from the train would lose time.

I agree, the doors were slow. They were modified latterly however, and became slightly quicker at opening, but I did see some guards pushing the door open with their hands to speed up the door opoening process. Travelling on the line last year we were waiting time at a many stations, but that will be down to both the driver and guard working efficently too.

 

[Starmill]

As silly as it may sound, it is actually possible for Penalty Fares to apply from a station without ticketing facilities. What it means is that you're entitled to board the train and buy your ticket at the earliest opportunity (onboard if a member of staff comes through selling tickets, or at your destination or interchange station); however, if you refuse to buy a ticket when given the opportunity to do so, you can be issued with a Penalty Fare (notwithstanding the lack of facilities at your starting station).

Indeed. Or for example if you show a ticket that's not valid for travel on that company, rather than just saying you haven't yet got a ticket...

I have actually seen that happen where a customer had a perfectly valid ticket from Oxford to Blackwater, but unfortunately they used it to travel beyond Blackwater to Guildford. The next person just asked for a ticket from Blackwater to Guildford and was sold one at the same price as if they'd bought it beforehand.

 

[Hadders]

The TVMs do not accept cash, so anybody without a smart mobile would be unable to buy a ticket

They accept normal credit and debit cards. Smartphone not required.