May 2019 timetable changes

Discussion in 'Allocations, Diagrams & Timetables' started by absolutelymilk, 20 Dec 2018.

  1. absolutelymilk

    absolutelymilk Established Member

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    I guess it's time to start up the next thread about timetable changes. For me the questions are - will Chester to Leeds and Chester to Liverpool (via the Halton curve) services start running? Will TPE Manchester Scotland services transition to run via Bolton, and will they stop at Bolton (and with any set down/pick up restrictions)?
     
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  3. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Member

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    Also LNER will begin more regular Lincoln-London Services and Bradford-London.
     
  4. cle

    cle Established Member

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    Decent uplift in services and new-ish destinations at Chester if so...

    I can't imagine after all the faff that the Manchester-Scotland service wouldn't be an open call at Bolton - won't they be 8 car 350s by then?
     
  5. 47421

    47421 Member

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    Not saying these will happen, but they are due (or overdue) under franchise agreements/other previously announced commitments:

    Thameslink:
    - Second hourly Camb-Brighton via core, other additional services originally expected to be added by May 19 deferred until unspecified date (see post 5479 here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/thameslink-services-timetable-from-may-20th.164547/page-183)

    GA:
    TSR2 enhancements are:
    - Hertford East 2TPH to 3TPH off peak only
    - Southend Vic 3TPH to 4TPH off peak only
    - Norwich Cambridge hourly extended to Stansted Airport all day
    - LivSt Ipswich hourly semifast extended to Norwich all day
    - introduction of STAR

    (personally I dont expect any of these to happen other than STAR and possibly some Norwich Camb through to Stansted)

    GWR:
    - half hourly service Pz-Ply
    - 4TPH Padd-Bristol

    (but given nothing detailed published on these yet assume they are not happening in May?)

    Scotrail
    - enhanced highland mainline https://www.tactran.gov.uk/documents/4GSSPHMLProjectandTimetableDev.pdf
    - post electrification improvements - I'm not sure what is due when but presumably they will speed up various central belt services?

    SouthWestern
    - 4TPH to Windsor/Reading all day
    - 4TPH Portsmouth direct (using 442s)

    Northern / TPE
    After the franchises were awarded there was a nice doc entitled "Summary of Committed Timetable Changes" published which says in first paragraph "The majority of the changes will take place at the December 2017 timetable change, with all committed improvements in place from December 2019. TransPennine will also implement a timetable change in December 2018 as part of its build-up of new services".
    The links to that doc are now broken. Anyone know if TPE/Northern are committed to any particular enhancements in May?

    WMT/LondonNorthWestern
    Various improvements were due Dec 18 but deferred cus of the NR timetabling mess, believe these have been bid for May 19, see http://moderngov.staffordshire.gov.... A for West Midlands Rail Briefing Report.pdf

    Changes include:
    - extra TPH New Street - Shrewsbury stopper running via Aston and Bescot
    - each of the three hourly Euston - New Street via Northampton services extended, one to Liverpool (fast Stafford to Crewe), one to Crewe via Stoke and one to Rugeley via Walsall
    - second hourly Liverpool - Birmingham NS extended to International
    - hourly Euston to Crewe to run direct from Stafford to Crewe not via Stoke
    - Leamington/Cov and Cov/Nuneaton combined
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    In theory this timetable change is supposed to incorporate the enhancements from the December 2017 and 2018 timetable changes at Northern, which you alude too. There has been some tacit admission from Rail North that these will now not happen. It's unclear if they've been abandoned permanently or only for another year. It seems that Chester to Leeds is one of the more likely things to go ahead.
     
  7. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    The second Cambridge/Brighton service will have a couple of consequential changes:
    - The couple of peak KX/Royston services I believe will be cut back to KX/Baldock. They were originally planned to be thus, however due to political pressure were extended to Royston.
    - The hourly KX/Stevenage via Hertford service will be cut back to Watton-at-Stone.
    - Possibly the midday KX/Letchworth reverser will become Cambridge in accordance with the standard pattern (it currently reverses at Letchworth I believe to facilitate a freight path).

    Presumably the GN side will also see an equivalent weekend service as opposed to the current "emergency timetable".
     
  8. Muenchener

    Muenchener Member

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    Would like to see elements of the class 195/331 fleets operational and Northern delivering on some of their franchise commitments. Now that Bolton corridor is electrified; at least one element of the Northern Connect promise can be delivered in May (subject to the above new rolling stock being operational).

    Plus, as stated above, the reintroduction of TPE services to the Bolton corridor.

    Would also like to see SR increase the frequency of the Oban and Fort William routes from Glasgow but not sure if the infrastructure currently supports that aspiration.
     
  9. bramling

    bramling Established Member

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    Euston to Rugeley via Walsall sounds crazy, there's no way that will have sufficient resilience to run reliably. More sensible would be simply extending a Euston to New Street service non-stop to Walsall, and keeping the New Street to Rugeley service self-contained.
     
  10. 47421

    47421 Member

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    yep, but if you can trash an entire service like Great Northern by stirring in services from all across southern England via a hopelessly overcrowded 2 track tunnel which many of your drivers are not even qualified to drive via, then messing up chase line will seem like very small beer.

    I imagine WestMidsTrains would say something like through services will offer better direct journey opportunities and make best use of platform space at New Street. Suppose we will find out in next few months if Network Rail will accommodate the bid and then in May whether the timetable actually works
     
  11. cle

    cle Established Member

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    So the Northampton services from Euston will be 4tph and all extended? So 1tph Crewe via Stafford (no Stoke), and 3tph to New St and onwards to 1 of Liverpool, Crewe (Stafford no Stoke) and Rugeley?

    Liverpool I imagine is replacing a current hourly, but are the other two additions to the regular service?

    Or just reverting to more long, pan-New St services, the likes of which got cut after Central lines (e.g Lincoln to Aber type things) which got cut in halves for reliability.
     
  12. 47421

    47421 Member

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    "So the Northampton services from Euston will be 4tph and all extended? So 1tph Crewe via Stafford (no Stoke), and 3tph to New St and onwards to 1 of Liverpool, Crewe (Stafford no Stoke) and Rugeley?

    Liverpool I imagine is replacing a current hourly, but are the other two additions to the regular service?"​

    No - currently the Euston Crewe does not run via Northampton (fast at xx46 from Euston via Weedon), so Northampton Euston remains 3TPH, and Liverpool to Birmingham is already 2TPH
     
  13. 43074

    43074 Established Member

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    To be honest the current the Rugeley to Birmingham services work quite well - they arrive at New Street from the Aston/Proof House Jn direction, dwell for 5 mins or so at New Street then continue to Tame Bridge Parkway via the Perry Barr line. No faff with reversing or anything at New Street and the whole service can be run with 4 efficient, self contained diagrams. As for direct London services from Walsall - I doubt there's a particularly large or affluent market for this in the first place, especially if achieved by extending a London to Birmingham via Northampton stopping service.
     
  14. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    None of the GA enhancements due to happen in May will now happen. The only exception is two additional services each way between Norwich & Liverpool St in 90mins (56mins from Ipswich) which hopefully will be operated by x2 755 bimode units obviously with no 1st class or catering.
     
  15. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Probably not. It seems, for some reason, to have been taken very seriously and made a franchise commitment though.
     
  16. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    A Train Service Planning report was presented to the Rail North Committee meeting of 09 October 2018. This can be downloaded at https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Item-5-Train-Service-Planning.pdf. In respect of the Northern and TPE May 2019 timetable changes, it stated:
    The TSR2 requirements referred to above are the Train Service Requirements for December 2017 that were detailed in the respective franchise agreements. They can be downloaded from https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/northern-rail-2016-rail-franchise-agreement and https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/transpennine-express-2016-rail-franchise-agreement. The Northern requirements did include the through Chester - Leeds service.
     
  17. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Precisely. A number of points have been abandoned with no apparent consequences whatsoever. Of course, and as I said, it seems that December 2019 may feature some changes wich are delayed from December 2017, including those for the Macclesfield and Mid Cheshire line services. Worth bearing in mind that there are significant new commitments which start from December 2019 too (York - Scarborough, Bradford - Nottingham).
     
  18. 47421

    47421 Member

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    Wow. I am not surprised but it is still shocking to see this. The enhancements were minor - off peak only to Hert East / Southend = 10 or so services each way a day to each destination only. Extension of the Ipswich semi fast to Norwich = 2 extra unit diagrams, and there are already off peak GA Camb to Stansted Apt services so really should have been able to combine some with Norwich to Camb services. If GA/NR cannot deliver this what chance the promised full recast? Surely STAR will happen?

    Anyway kind of the Dutch govt and Mitsui to agree to pay £280m to cover losses on the Franchise. DfT must not be able to believe their luck in getting them to agree to order all the new trains and throw in an extra £280m as well.
     
  19. BenW390Fan

    BenW390Fan Member

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    I will definitely be looking forward to the Liverpool - Euston service, being the cheaper option, but will it be quicker than getting a train to Crewe then getting the Crewe - Euston service? There’s always the direct Virgin service but that’s a lot dearer, especially if you pay on the day!
     
  20. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

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    You'll need to remind me what STAR is as never heard of it.

    I doubt any 720s will be here to use by May & going through to Stansted can only happen with bimode units & requires a total recast of the timetable from Norwich. I think leaving everything to December is the sensible option & remember the DfT is weary of anything after last Mays meltdown.
     
  21. ashworth

    ashworth Established Member

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    Is there any news on the 2nd train each hour between Sheffield, Worksop and Retford? In addition to providing more capacity, especially between Sheffield and Worksop, the main advantages of this are a faster Sheffield to Lincoln service and better connections at Worksop to/from the Mansfield area.
     
  22. geoffk

    geoffk Member

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    I read these would be going on to Gainsborough Central (I see that's mentioned in #15).

    My local line, the Calder Valley, has been promised through services to Manchester Airport and Liverpool as well as Chester, the Liverpool being a completely new service and I can see that being kicked into the long grass.
     
    Last edited: 20 Dec 2018
  23. 158756

    158756 Member

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    Is it the case that Northern can't or won't provide the staff or rolling stock for these abandoned services, or is it that Network Rail won't allow the paths? I got the impression it was the latter, in which case the franchise specification is garbage, the Northern Hub business case is garbage, and there will never be any improvements to services South of Manchester.

    I would bet the December timetable change will be delayed until 2020 at least.
     
  24. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    That was what I thought too.

    At least we can still hold out hope for strong successes with some of the other enhancements that will be delivered, especially the Harrogate line and the aforementioned (Gainsborough) Retford / Worksop - Sheffield 2tph.
     
  25. agbrs_Jack

    agbrs_Jack Member

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    Is there a draft timetable / consultation publicly available for Northern's May 2019 changes or is it just a case of waiting for the bad (hopefully not bad but I'm losing said hope) news?
     
  26. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    The Bradford to Manchester Airport via Calder Valley service was not contracted to start until December 2019 and was predicated on Piccadilly Platforms 15 and 16 being ready by then. So I think it is highly unlikely to start in May.

    The through Leeds to Liverpool via Calder Valley service was also not contracted to start until December 2019.

    Edit: Leeds to Liverpool para. corrected.
     
    Last edited: 21 Dec 2018
  27. 158756

    158756 Member

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    Yes, the Airport service will in all likelihood be binned, another example of the Ordsall Chord business case not being worth the paper it was written on.

    Liverpool - Leeds wasn't in the ITT, but ISTR the December 2019 TSRs issued with the original franchise agreement had something along the lines of 'x trains per day calling at Huyton will also call at Bradford and Hebden Bridge'.
     
  28. FenMan

    FenMan Member

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    I'd be happy if GWR have sufficient sway to amend the introduction of the Thameslink timetable enough to prevent North Downs Line Reading-Gatwick services being turned back at Redhill if they're slightly late. Due to a poor connection, affected Gatwick-bound passengers endure a long wait at Redhill.

    If GWR don't succeed, there would be little point in them advertising a Reading-Gatwick service that avoids a cross London interchange, as its reliability, which has been through the floor since the May changes, won't improve.
     
  29. 43074

    43074 Established Member

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    The Hertford East and Southend enhancements on their own may be minor but the timetable will need some degree of reworking anyway to make these extra services fit with the rest of the timetable (e.g. Liverpool Street platforming) which is why delaying the improvements until a later date is probably wise. Plus there's the additional traincrew diagrams etc needed to run the extra services meaning there's far more to it than 10 or so extra trains to each from a certain date.
     
  30. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

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    In the TfN document there's an appendix 1 of "schemes to discuss with Northern." Would I be right in assuming that these are aspirations rather than commitments of any kind?
     
  31. Greybeard33

    Greybeard33 Established Member

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    Yes, you are correct - previous post corrected. I inadvertently looked at the ITT TSR instead of the franchise agreement ones. The requirement is for 12 trains per day each way between Lime Street and Bradford calling at Huyton and Victoria. From the tables it can be deduced that the service must also call at Newton-le-Willows, and that it would likely be an extension of one of the existing Leeds - Manchester via Bradford services, whereas the Airport - Bradford would have been an additional Calder Valley service calling at Hebden Bridge and Halifax. No requirement for additional calls at stations between Victoria and Hebden Bridge from December 2019.
     

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