Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[jon0844]

I can see that causing a station to be closed (or if it were one of the TfL stations, GN services not stopping there), but the whole NCL?

I would have thought so too. There must be another explanation.

 

[choochoochoo]

Just thinking is it worth taking the 'from May 20th' away from this threads title ?

 

[387star]

There are drivers who have signed the whole route from say Horsham to Peterborough for months but who spend almost every turn only going only to finsbury. Seems strange to me but I guess diagrams are very complex to plan

 

[Fred26]

I wasn't affected myself, but saw a new GTR trick on Twitter yesterday - Moorgate services diverted into Kings Cross due to a lack of station staff on the NCL. Disgraceful.

I would have thought so too. There must be another explanation.

There is another explanation, but I can't say any more than that.
In the end it didn't have an effect anyway. The line was closed for half an hour, if that, and nothing was diverted to Kings Cross. Though that's only because the weekend service is so poor that there are large gaps.

 

[OwenB]

There is another explanation, but I can't say any more than that.
In the end it didn't have an effect anyway. The line was closed for half an hour, if that, and nothing was diverted to Kings Cross. Though that's only because the weekend service is so poor that there are large gaps.

Just wondering if there was actually much appetite for weekend travellers going into London for trains going to Moorgate, rather than King's Cross (obviously aside from people who get on at Drayton Park, H&I, etc.). I think I'd prefer it if all services just went to King's Cross at the weekend. It's only a quick hop across on the tube.

 

[Fred26]

Just wondering if there was actually much appetite for weekend travellers going into London for trains going to Moorgate, rather than King's Cross (obviously aside from people who get on at Drayton Park, H&I, etc.). I think I'd prefer it if all services just went to King's Cross at the weekend. It's only a quick hop across on the tube.

Many people have suggested the same. However, Highbury is excellent for LO, though it's a long-winded connection without lifts, and Old Street is on the fringe of Shoreditch. Soon Moorgate will have Crossrail which will probably make that station busier.
I think if you gave people a choice most would rather Kings Cross, but the connections on the NCL are worth having the weekend opening, in my opinion.

 

[OwenB]

Many people have suggested the same. However, Highbury is excellent for LO, though it's a long-winded connection without lifts, and Old Street is on the fringe of Shoreditch. Soon Moorgate will have Crossrail which will probably make that station busier.
I think if you gave people a choice most would rather Kings Cross, but the connections on the NCL are worth having the weekend opening, in my opinion.

I always saw the Moorgate line as 90% commuters. However, good point about Crossrail.

 

[Fred26]

I always saw the Moorgate line as 90% commuters. However, good point about Crossrail.

Moorgate itself certainly is, probably Essex Road and Drayton Park too, but the percentage would be lower for Old Street and Highbury as they have more desire for leisure travellers.

 

[bramling]

First Monday of the new TT, 9S12 now showing as cancelled...

 

[Failed Unit]

You miss the point though I only used Highbury & Islington as a example but you forget that when there are LUL strikes they usually affect more then just one station hence why I took the time to debate the other poster by saying by their explanation that a full GTR service would run regardless isn't accurate because in the past when there has been industrial action taken by LUL members, no NCL service has operated with them being diverted to Kings Cross as such industrial action affects more then one LUL line.

I am not sure if you use the line or not. I can’t remember the last time it was closed in strikes. Admittedly most of the recent strikes are driver related generally covering specific lines. (Piccadilly the largest recent number). The stations have remained open. The NCL has become extremely overcrowded in said strikes from Hadley Wood south as tube travellers migrate to national rail.

Other questions i would ask. Were Moorgate, Old Street and Highbury and Islington closed to TfL services yesterday? If the answer to this is yes i would agree it was a TfL issue. But I guess little point in speculation I just know from recent experience the NCL can and does stay open in TfL disputes.

Back to timetables issues.
Does anyone know in May what is likely to be delivered?
A few large gaps to fill.
1. Useful weekend services.
2. The other Brighton - Cambridge service.
3. The additional Gordon Hill - Moorgate service. (Peak). This needs the 717s as it was not possible to do with 313s. But it will also restore the gaps in the service to Hadley Wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate in the morning peak taking then back to the pre May 2018 levels.
4. Welwyn- Sevenoaks (peak)

I am sure people on other Thameslink routes will add other quietly dropped services.

One other thing I find odd is the comment about the extra class 700s made available. I thought the whole fleet was available. You see many in Hornsey in the peak. I know the break lots but surely GTR has access to everything since May?

 

[Hadders]

I was at Essex Road yesterday around 17:30 and was pleasantly surprised at how busy it was. To be fair it wasn’t exactly heaving but when i’ve Been there previously i’ve Been the only one on the platform, certainly not the case yesterday.

 

[ijmad]

So, what do we think of the morning peak so far. 6 cancellations through Blackfriars. Some lateness and skip-stopping. Not a total disaster though?

 

[Failed Unit]

So, what do we think of the morning peak so far. 6 cancellations through Blackfriars. Some lateness and skip-stopping. Not a total disaster though?

Not bad considering the problems between East Croydon and London Bridge. Surprised to see London Kings Cross - Letchworth services off peak. I thought the May timetable should have everything going to Cambridge.

 

[Failed Unit]

Moorgate itself certainly is, probably Essex Road and Drayton Park too, but the percentage would be lower for Old Street and Highbury as they have more desire for leisure travellers.

Many use Highbury for the Victoria line as well as for those they will be happy that it is an easier interchange then kings cross offers. I prefer old street to kings cross for the northern but wouldn’t explicitly select a train heading either way. I know some that use Moorgate if they are heading to the tower bridge area. Moorgate is dead. Often 2 or 3 people per coach until Highbury.

I think if the 4tph ever happens (on each branch) 2 towards kx and 2 towards Moorgate could be perfect. But then maybe 8tph from Finsbury Park could stimulate demand.

 

[47421]

Does anyone know in May what is likely to be delivered?
A few large gaps to fill.
1. Useful weekend services.
2. The other Brighton - Cambridge service.
3. The additional Gordon Hill - Moorgate service. (Peak). This needs the 717s as it was not possible to do with 313s. But it will also restore the gaps in the service to Hadley Wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate in the morning peak taking then back to the pre May 2018 levels.
4. Welwyn- Sevenoaks (peak)

The write up in Dec 18 Modern Railways says the May 19 bid sees only the addition of the second Camb - Brighton, and that GTR are waiting to hear from Network Rail on whether it can be accommodated.

Adding more through the core requires ATO, which is installed from north as far as Blackfriars, extension to London Bridge expected to commissioned next Spring. ATO not currently in daily use, most staff not trained and training not scheduled and wont be until adding more services via core agreed with Network Rail. Notes also that Traffic Management System is also needed for 20+ via core and currently not in use as it "has encountered a number of glitches".

So in summary, decent chance second Brighton Camb is added in May 19, but Welwyn Sevenoaks currently unknown. Not sure about Moorgate or weekends

 

[DaveN]

The Flitwick fasts did well with all on time at Farringdon except for the 8:13 from Flitwick which was two minutes late.
Not good for Harlington people though, with the 07:33 and 07:48 both cancelled giving a 45 minute gap.

 

[Aictos]

Do you want to read what you're replying to? Where did I suggest that diverting trains to Kings Cross hasn't been done before? I've been on plenty of their trains that have been Moorgate services when I boarded them, and Kings Cross services when I got off them. It's only the excuse that's a new one on me.

And yes, if there are no staff available, then they haven't hired sufficient staff by definition. But of course you can't see that it's a big deal - it's just GTR failing to provide the service that they've contracted to provide. Again. And sod the people who live near Essex Road or Drayton Road[sic].

But it's NOT a new excuse, if staff are not available for whatever reason then services simply do not call and it's nothing to do with not enough staff employed as they have a budget so they need to ensure they have a business case if they want to recruit even more staff.

All you're doing is ranting...

I am not sure if you use the line or not. I can’t remember the last time it was closed in strikes. Admittedly most of the recent strikes are driver related generally covering specific lines. (Piccadilly the largest recent number). The stations have remained open. The NCL has become extremely overcrowded in said strikes from Hadley Wood south as tube travellers migrate to national rail.

Think the last time was 2011 and I used to use the line however I no longer use GTR services as there are alternatives available for me.

Other questions i would ask. Were Moorgate, Old Street and Highbury and Islington closed to TfL services yesterday? If the answer to this is yes i would agree it was a TfL issue. But I guess little point in speculation I just know from recent experience the NCL can and does stay open in TfL disputes.

I'm not speculating though, just saying that it's something that is a possibility and in any case the line was only shut for 30 minutes so barely noticeable.

Back to timetables issues.
Does anyone know in May what is likely to be delivered?
A few large gaps to fill.
1. Useful weekend services.
3. The additional Gordon Hill - Moorgate service. (Peak). This needs the 717s as it was not possible to do with 313s. But it will also restore the gaps in the service to Hadley Wood, Oakliegh Park and New Southgate in the morning peak taking then back to the pre May 2018 levels.

1. Whenever that might be, probably May 2020 as a conservative estimate but could well be before.

2. As soon as possible so Hertford services can be sped up, maybe having a few more semi fast services.

 

[Failed Unit]

The write up in Dec 18 Modern Railways says the May 19 bid sees only the addition of the second Camb - Brighton, and that GTR are waiting to hear from Network Rail on whether it can be accommodated.

Adding more through the core requires ATO, which is installed from north as far as Blackfriars, extension to London Bridge expected to commissioned next Spring. ATO not currently in daily use, most staff not trained and training not scheduled and wont be until adding more services via core agreed with Network Rail. Notes also that Traffic Management System is also needed for 20+ via core and currently not in use as it "has encountered a number of glitches".

So in summary, decent chance second Brighton Camb is added in May 19, but Welwyn Sevenoaks currently unknown. Not sure about Moorgate or weekends

Thanks. I hope they can get the Moorgate and weekend services going as that will at least give most stations the same frequency as what they had pre-May.

The fact they still have concerns about delivering them and the proposed Sevenoaks service is concerned considering originally everything was to be delivered at once. I know the thread graveyard says the program was never deliverable when the franchise was let. Sad really. The Welwyn- Sevenoaks would be nice for my commute but I have lasted many years without it. A few more won’t kill me.

 

[ijmad]

I am sure people on other Thameslink routes will add other quietly dropped services.

In May we were supposed to be at 18tph peak through the core.

They actually managed that this morning between 0700 and 0800 and 17 (one cancellation) between 0800 and 0900.

In Dec 2018 (i.e. today), they were supposed to bring on:
+ An additional Bedford-Cambridge and Cambridge-Bedford all day (1tph to 2tph) [NO]
+ An additional Bedford-Littlehampton and Littlehampton-Bedford in the peak (1tph to 2tph) [NO]
+ One additional Rainham service starting at Luton during the high peak [YES?]
= 20tph peak through the core (16 through London Bridge)

In May 2019, we're supposed to see:
+ Sevenoaks to Welwyn replacing Sevenoaks to Blackfriars and Welwyn to KX (2tph)
= 22tph peak through the core

In Dec 2019, we're supposed to see:
+ Cambridge to Ashford replacing Cambridge to KX and Southeastern's Blackfriars to Ashford (2tph)
= 24tph peak through the core

Who knows when these services will actually come to pass. I'm hopeful everything has just been shifted back one iteration of the timetable. On a personal level, certainly would't mind seeing the Sevenoaks to Welwyn service before December next year either.

 

[jon0844]

One other thing I find odd is the comment about the extra class 700s made available. I thought the whole fleet was available. You see many in Hornsey in the peak. I know the break lots but surely GTR has access to everything since May?

No, they didn't have access to them all (for whatever reason - I don't know). Siemens was told they needed to make more available for the timetable change and I think GTR had 101 serviceable trains today, with the option for another five. I assume this is to have a way to quickly replace a unit if there's a fault and reduce the chance of disruption (unless the fault means a train standing down in the core or something).

Won't some of the trains only be needed when the existing services run further (such as Sevenoaks and Maidstone)? That might explain why some are just parked up doing nothing.

Having more units available might hopefully enable some rotation, if not already happening, so they can deal with the etching and graffiti that has been allowed to remain for the whole summer on some units. Not that I think many commuters are going to care much about that right now.

 

[387star]

Ashford has finally opened as a depot

The new Littlehampton service can't be that hard to add?

I think the Horsham to Peterborough is the full service now

The Maidstone or Ashford to Cambridge is the last new service to introduce aside sevenoaks to welwyn peak extensions

 

[bramling]

Not bad considering the problems between East Croydon and London Bridge. Surprised to see London Kings Cross - Letchworth services off peak. I thought the May timetable should have everything going to Cambridge.

There was always one midday Cambridge trip booked to reverse at Letchworth, which I believe is to accommodate a freight path to Barrington. Presumably that will become a Cambridge trip when that freight flow comes to an end - although it wouldn’t be the end of the world if it stayed as a Letchworth.

In fact, from a performance point of view it would probably be better all-round if one of the 2tph went round at Letchworth at quieter times.

 

[sprunt]

But it's NOT a new excuse, if staff are not available for whatever reason then services simply do not call and it's nothing to do with not enough staff employed as they have a budget so they need to ensure they have a business case if they want to recruit even more staff.

I don't give a toss about their budget. They have a contract, under which they are paid from public funds to perform a service. If their budget does not allow them to perform that service, they need to increase their budget.

I'm not speculating though, just saying that it's something that is a possibility

That's the definition of speculating.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The Rainham service is now 2tph after only being six months late -_- pathetic really, let’s see how long it lasts.

Adding salt to the wound I heard Crossrail from Abbey wood will be delayed to 2020 :-/

 

[Aictos]

I don't give a toss about their budget. They have a contract, under which they are paid from public funds to perform a service. If their budget does not allow them to perform that service, they need to increase their budget.

By which they have to prove to the DfT that they need to increase the budget to recruit more staff by showing a acceptable business case to them as any such decision on recruitment has to be agreed by the DfT as they hold the purse strings and when they tell GTR to jump, GTR doesn't ask how high they should jump they just jump.

It's not as easy as simply increasing their budget as any good business person knows, sorry if that is difficult to understand.

 

[Failed Unit]

By which they have to prove to the DfT that they need to increase the budget to recruit more staff by showing a acceptable business case to them as any such decision on recruitment has to be agreed by the DfT as they hold the purse strings and when they tell GTR to jump, GTR doesn't ask how high they should jump they just jump.

It's not as easy as simply increasing their budget as any good business person knows, sorry if that is difficult to understand.

Depends how you look at it. If GTR have said that they would cover the staffing and have got their sums wrong, they shouldn’t be coming to DfT and should be taking out of their “profit”. We should not be paying for GTRs incompetence.

I did read further up the thread that GTR don’t want to disclose on this occasion what went wrong and it doesn’t matter as it was only a short period of time. (On a Sunday). That as a customer of GTR really winds me up - they continue to lie to their customers. Why say it was a staffing problem if it wasn’t. I had hoped the lying to us was over - following Charles Hortons lies to us immediately after the timetable was introduced.

You are lucky - you don’t have to use them. Many on this thread are not so fortunate. It is very sad but you can’t actually believe anything GTR say as they are very happy to lie to customers.

 

[Fred26]

Depends how you look at it. If GTR have said that they would cover the staffing and have got their sums wrong, they shouldn’t be coming to DfT and should be taking out of their “profit”. We should not be paying for GTRs incompetence.

I did read further up the thread that GTR don’t want to disclose on this occasion what went wrong and it doesn’t matter as it was only a short period of time. (On a Sunday). That as a customer of GTR really winds me up - they continue to lie to their customers. Why say it was a staffing problem if it wasn’t. I had hoped the lying to us was over - following Charles Hortons lies to us immediately after the timetable was introduced.

You are lucky - you don’t have to use them. Many on this thread are not so fortunate. It is very sad but you can’t actually believe anything GTR say as they are very happy to lie to customers.

It was a staffing problem, just not in the way(s) suggested.

 

[Failed Unit]

It was a staffing problem, just not in the way(s) suggested.

Ok, so they were not lying. My apologies for interpreting it in that way.

 

[jon0844]

What time was it? I think most trains ran yesterday didn't they? There seems to be have been a short gap early morning where a train terminated short and started at Finsbury Park, and that could have been just about anything. Maybe a driver arrived late because a taxi didn't turn up. Who knows?

I don't think GTR lies. Sure, they've milked a situation outside of their control by really emphasising it isn't their fault, but they don't lie outright. Train crew issues are stated as that. Operational incidents may be crew related but not a shortage (e.g. Driver stuck on a train outside the station to relieve the driver ahead) or train planning/rostering mistakes.

Are there actual examples of outright lies? How could they expect not to be found out?

 

[ijmad]

A few cancellations today. A couple on the Peterborough-Horsham route which isn't great given the 2tph service up that way. Let's see how the evening high peak fares.