• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

May 2022 Timetable Changes

Status
Not open for further replies.

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Having had a look at the TPE timetable, there seems to be various trains from the east side (mostly Newcastle) that are terminating at Manchester Victoria.

1) Is this part of the implementation of the Manchester Recovery Task Force?

2) Was there any further investigation into whether instead of terminating at Man Vic, could the trains have been sent to Bolton or Wigan North Western?

The reason I am asking is that this would be an extra diesel train terminating at Man Vic*, which as it is an enclosed station with a very low roof, diesel trains should ideally be banned from terminating at those type of stations.

*Unsure if the track layout and signalling allows terminating trains to be sent well away from the enclosed area to stop at the Bolton/Liverpool end of the platforms.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Frankfurt

Member
Joined
23 Jan 2010
Messages
124
Having had a look at the TPE timetable, there seems to be various trains from the east side (mostly Newcastle) that are terminating at Manchester Victoria.

1) Is this part of the implementation of the Manchester Recovery Task Force?

2) Was there any further investigation into whether instead of terminating at Man Vic, could the trains have been sent to Bolton or Wigan North Western?

The reason I am asking is that this would be an extra diesel train terminating at Man Vic*, which as it is an enclosed station with a very low roof, diesel trains should ideally be banned from terminating at those type of stations.

*Unsure if the track layout and signalling allows terminating trains to be sent well away from the enclosed area to stop at the Bolton/Liverpool end of the platforms.

There's a turnback siding they can use from platform 3 or 4 that's away from the enclosed station area.
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,981
Having had a look at the TPE timetable, there seems to be various trains from the east side (mostly Newcastle) that are terminating at Manchester Victoria.

1) Is this part of the implementation of the Manchester Recovery Task Force?

2) Was there any further investigation into whether instead of terminating at Man Vic, could the trains have been sent to Bolton or Wigan North Western?

The reason I am asking is that this would be an extra diesel train terminating at Man Vic*, which as it is an enclosed station with a very low roof, diesel trains should ideally be banned from terminating at those type of stations.

*Unsure if the track layout and signalling allows terminating trains to be sent well away from the enclosed area to stop at the Bolton/Liverpool end of the platforms.
Yes it was, it would previously have continued to the Airport

Could it not terminate in Platform 1 or 2 (which ever one doesn’t have the Leeds via Calder Valley in) which isn’t under the low roof, or are they not long enough?
 

MikeWM

Established Member
Joined
26 Mar 2010
Messages
4,640
Location
Ely
It seems the 0845 and 0947 Ely to Kings Cross will continue to start from Ely (as opposed to back at Kings Lynn).

Perhaps not necessary for the 0947 (and as my usual commuting train, I'm not complaining!) - that was only extended back to Lynn in May 2018 - but the 0845 continues to seem a major omission. That was always 4 full carriages of passengers by the time it got to Ely pre-Covid and before the 8-car works - very much one to avoid catching at Ely if possible - so I'm surprised this isn't being restored. Certainly I can't imagine FLUA being happy about it!
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
Could it not terminate in Platform 1 or 2 (which ever one doesn’t have the Leeds via Calder Valley in) which isn’t under the low roof, or are they not long enough?
The Manchester Victoria bay platforms are too short for the TPE 5-car and 6-car trains, but they can use the reversing siding just west of the station.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
671
Location
london
Covid related absence? Or wider health or industrial relations issues? Covid dropping rapidly like in the wider population or certain driver depots affected disproportionately?

Would be interesting to see what says about absences in those 4 weekly reports across the industry
The issue is the continued high level of absence of drivers. I don’t think that’s that much in the way of vacancies.
 

317 forever

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2010
Messages
2,914
Location
North West
I wonder whether, with some trains having shorter workings especially on commuter lines, whether by May 2022 we will have say 10% fewer train paths but 15% less rolling stock usage?

Admittedly there are occasional examples of fewer train paths but with longer formations, most notably Cross Country.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
14,124
Location
UK
Having had a look at the TPE timetable, there seems to be various trains from the east side (mostly Newcastle) that are terminating at Manchester Victoria.

1) Is this part of the implementation of the Manchester Recovery Task Force?
Yes. These services will sadly never be returning to Manchester Airport again. That said, my sources suggest that the currently published timetable on that route bears little relation to what will actually run.

2) Was there any further investigation into whether instead of terminating at Man Vic, could the trains have been sent to Bolton or Wigan North Western?

The reason I am asking is that this would be an extra diesel train terminating at Man Vic*, which as it is an enclosed station with a very low roof, diesel trains should ideally be banned from terminating at those type of stations.

*Unsure if the track layout and signalling allows terminating trains to be sent well away from the enclosed area to stop at the Bolton/Liverpool end of the platforms.
There's only a handful of fundamental issues with extending to Bolton or Wigan, such as:
  1. Requiring route learning - time for which is no doubt a premium currently
  2. Meaning an additional conflicting move, whether at Ordsall Lane Jn, Salford Crescent and/or Lostock Jn
  3. Requiring at least one, possibly two, additional 802s - which are also at a premium given the repurposing which has occurred since the originally intended Liverpool-Edinburgh and Airport-Newcastle services were curtailed.
But apart from those issues, it's fine! ;)
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
8,393
Inners are 2tph off-peak 4tph peak on both routes, with a couple of Gordon Hill extras in the peak.

It’s quite sobering that off-peak on the outers there is 8tph into London overall (2tph from Peterborough route, 6tph from Cambridge route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s, yet on the inners there is 4tph (2tph from each route) compared to 6tph in the 1990s. Quite depressing really.

This is no doubt this sparse level of GN capacity is how GTR will be able to see off the 313 and 455 fleets. But how long before we get some severe overcrowding? Trouble ahead, methinks.

Do you know why GTR seem so reluctant to increase off peak frequencies? They have enough 717s, and I'm sure the demand is there. There's a lot of people who use alternative routes (bus to Piccadilly etc) because the service is so infrequent (by London standards).

Could take it up with Grant Shapps, the MP for some of that area, who also happens to be the Transport Secretary. :E
 

IanXC

Emeritus Moderator
Joined
18 Dec 2009
Messages
6,506
Having had a look at the TPE timetable, there seems to be various trains from the east side (mostly Newcastle) that are terminating at Manchester Victoria.

1) Is this part of the implementation of the Manchester Recovery Task Force?

2) Was there any further investigation into whether instead of terminating at Man Vic, could the trains have been sent to Bolton or Wigan North Western?

The reason I am asking is that this would be an extra bi mode electric train terminating at Man Vic*, which as it is an enclosed station with a very low roof, diesel trains should ideally be banned from terminating at those type of stations.

*Unsure if the track layout and signalling allows terminating trains to be sent well away from the enclosed area to stop at the Bolton/Liverpool end of the platforms.

Erm. Fixed that for you.
 

wobman

Established Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
1,233
Tfw have got rid of the crewe - Stafford- wolves services from May TT, the avanti staff that live in Stafford won't be happy as its there service to wolves depot.

It's another diversionary route lost fir tfw services......
 

Alfie1014

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2012
Messages
1,178
Location
Essex
Had a look at some of the detail of the GA (GEML) changes. Off peak appears mostly unchanged, the London peaks not surprisingly are reduced on pre-COVID levels but better than today. 13-14 trains an hour in the high peak hour (down from 20 TPE pre C19) slightly less at the shoulders. Seems a sensible compromise.

Highlights or lowlights depending on your perspective on the rest are;

No Norwich in 90s, the 17:00 down calls as now Mann, Ips, Stow and Diss (Norwich in 101). No 08:00 or 09:00 up but 08:03 and 09:03. So possibly leaves potential for reintroductionin the future if necessary. Still a couple of gaps in the Norwich service 06:48 up and 18:10 down which at one time were to be 720 operated.

Two trains vice three trains per hour in peak to/from Clacton and restoration of 40 minute frequency to/from Braintree in the peaks and 4 tph tofrom Southend V, one of the Clactons an hour calls at the intermediate stations between Thorpe-le-Soken and Wivenhoe.

No Chelmsford starters in the morning peak, (operationally a pain as they start from the down platform), so that should help performance and only the odd Witham service. The burghers of Chelmsford will probably be the most aggrieved as all the trains will start elsewhere so no chance of bagging the best seats!

The services on the branches however are less satisfactory, whilst 1 direct train (vice 3) is provided to/from Southminster the times esp in the morning aren’t ideal, 07:19 arrival in Liv St, though a return at 17:57 is better though a bit late. There’s also a 50 minute gap at the end of the morning peak in the shuttles to Wickford. As mentioned Braintree regains its 40 minute interval and retains its direct off peak service, though there’s a gap in the through trains from London between 18:04 and 19:48, connection provided at Witham though.

The Harwich branch is an hourly hourly all day except there’s one through train at the end of the morning peak to Liverpool St. There are still the ‘boat trains’ from London to International but in the main these don’t serve the intermediate stations. Pre C-19 the local service was half hourly in the peaks with the odd extension to/from Colchester.

Similarity the Walton branch is hourly, though there’s a extra early shuttle to Thorpe, worryingly there’s a 82 minute gap at the end of the morning peak with no departures from Walton between 07:38 until 09:00.Not much use for the students going to the college at Tendring Tech college at Frinton. In the evening only an hourly service again is not helpful connecting out of the half hourly London services and where it used to be up to 3 trains in the busiest hour. Also no through trains at all to London at all for the first time (except during C-19) in living memory? Not very helpful for some of the most deprived coastal communities in the country, not exactly levelling up!

Still a chance that some of the gaps may be filled before May, we shall see.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,917
Location
East Anglia
Had a look at some of the detail of the GA (GEML) changes. Off peak appears mostly unchanged, the London peaks not surprisingly are reduced on pre-COVID levels but better than today. 13-14 trains an hour in the high peak hour (down from 20 TPE pre C19) slightly less at the shoulders. Seems a sensible compromise.

Highlights or lowlights depending on your perspective on the rest are;

No Norwich in 90s, the 17:00 down calls as now Mann, Ips, Stow and Diss (Norwich in 101). No 08:00 or 09:00 up but 08:03 and 09:03. So possibly leaves potential for reintroductionin the future if necessary. Still a couple of gaps in the Norwich service 06:48 up and 18:10 down which at one time were to be 720 operated.

Two trains vice three trains per hour in peak to/from Clacton and restoration of 40 minute frequency to/from Braintree in the peaks and 4 tph tofrom Southend V, one of the Clactons an hour calls at the intermediate stations between Thorpe-le-Soken and Wivenhoe.

No Chelmsford starters in the morning peak, (operationally a pain as they start from the down platform), so that should help performance and only the odd Witham service. The burghers of Chelmsford will probably be the most aggrieved as all the trains will start elsewhere so no chance of bagging the best seats!

The services on the branches however are less satisfactory, whilst 1 direct train (vice 3) is provided to/from Southminster the times esp in the morning aren’t ideal, 07:19 arrival in Liv St, though a return at 17:57 is better though a bit late. There’s also a 50 minute gap at the end of the morning peak in the shuttles to Wickford. As mentioned Braintree regains its 40 minute interval and retains its direct off peak service, though there’s a gap in the through trains from London between 18:04 and 19:48, connection provided at Witham though.

The Harwich branch is an hourly hourly all day except there’s one through train at the end of the morning peak to Liverpool St. There are still the ‘boat trains’ from London to International but in the main these don’t serve the intermediate stations. Pre C-19 the local service was half hourly in the peaks with the odd extension to/from Colchester.

Similarity the Walton branch is hourly, though there’s a extra early shuttle to Thorpe, worryingly there’s a 82 minute gap at the end of the morning peak with no departures from Walton between 07:38 until 09:00.Not much use for the students going to the college at Tendring Tech college at Frinton. In the evening only an hourly service again is not helpful connecting out of the half hourly London services and where it used to be up to 3 trains in the busiest hour. Also no through trains at all to London at all for the first time (except during C-19) in living memory? Not very helpful for some of the most deprived coastal communities in the country, not exactly levelling up!

Still a chance that some of the gaps may be filled before May, we shall see.
Thank you for that. Very informative. Only a slight digression. Although the popular 06:48 ex-Norwich (SX) is unfortunately not expected to resume in May, it was the 06:28 that was planned to be 720 operated. The short lived training of Norwich crews was suspended when plans changed in 2020.
 

Alfie1014

Member
Joined
27 Jun 2012
Messages
1,178
Location
Essex
Thank you for that. Very informative. Only a slight digression. Although the popular 06:48 ex-Norwich (SX) is unfortunately not expected to resume in May, it was the 06:28 that was planned to be 720 operated. The short lived training of Norwich crews was suspended when plans changed in 2020.
My bad, been difficult to keep on top of all of the changes of late, I have to double check what times the trains are today when setting off for the station these days!
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
17,917
Location
East Anglia
My bad, been difficult to keep on top of all of the changes of late, I have to double check what times the trains are today when setting off for the station these days!
Tell me about it. Thank goodness we get diagrams lol
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
3,974
Location
East Anglia
There are still the ‘boat trains’ from London to International but in the main these don’t serve the intermediate stations. Pre C-19 the local service was half hourly in the peaks with the odd extension to/from Colchester.

The evening ‘Hook Continental‘, such as it now is, is a bit early Monday to Friday at 18.45 from Liverpool St. Saturday it is 19.36 and Sunday 20.00 so not as tidy as it used to be, but at least it is still there.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
9,428
Location
London
I am certain that GTR, indeed all TOCs, will be explaining their driver position in detail to the DfT in the8r 4 weekly contracts review.

The issue is the continued high level of absence of drivers. I don’t think that’s that much in the way of vacancies.




Not really.

I think its neither vacancies (although many adverts have closed in the last few months) OR absence but that there are a great deal of drivers in training and going through the bottleneck period of getting time with a DI and becoming productive.
 

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
2,072
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
I’m not sure if this has already been mentioned, but the York to Liverpool services seem to have been taken out for the entire timetable period, meaning that the frequency on the York to Manchester Victoria corridor will not return to a pre-Covid frequency.
 

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
920
I think its neither vacancies (although many adverts have closed in the last few months) OR absence but that there are a great deal of drivers in training and going through the bottleneck period of getting time with a DI and becoming productive.
Exactly this.
Even once productive it can take a very long time to become ‘fully productive’ with Route proficiency learnt and assessed. Of course with GTR / Southern there is speculation of 387s coming in, this will mean a day cab conversion for all non conversant drivers especially as the 387s have a newer digital version of AWS/TPWS. Ironically one of the last conversations I had with management there pre covid was about getting more drivers 387 trained as whatever stock came in would likely have the new AWS. At that time it wasn’t deemed necessary.
 

Nicholas Lewis

On Moderation
Joined
9 Aug 2019
Messages
7,273
Location
Surrey
I’m not sure if this has already been mentioned, but the York to Liverpool services seem to have been taken out for the entire timetable period, meaning that the frequency on the York to Manchester Victoria corridor will not return to a pre-Covid frequency.
TPE are going to have a lot of expensive stock sitting around at this rate.
 

Watershed

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
26 Sep 2020
Messages
14,124
Location
UK
TPE are going to have a lot of expensive stock sitting around at this rate.
No different to today really. The 802 changes cost a unit in their own right (~15 min dwells at Manchester Victoria each way to join up the paths, plus a longer turnaround at Liverpool) and only 'save' 5 units in return. So in essence 4 extra 802s sitting around.

Don't get me wrong, it's disappointing, but the ambition is clearly still there.
 

47421

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2012
Messages
671
Location
london
Covid related absence? Or wider health or industrial relations issues? Covid dropping rapidly like in the wider population or certain driver depots affected disproportionately?

Would be interesting to see what says about absences in those 4 weekly reports across the industry
Caroline Pidgeon of London Assembly has written to GTR today re the driver and timetable situation
 

Attachments

  • CP1.png
    CP1.png
    80.2 KB · Views: 173
  • CP2.png
    CP2.png
    46.3 KB · Views: 171

Southern Dvr

Member
Joined
13 Oct 2010
Messages
920
Lib Dem writes letter to complain about service provision on a DfT managed operator. Letter gets put in bin. Conservative complains about service provision, suddenly the timetable changes.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,186
Regular user of Southern services writes letter to GTR, and will get response. Which she may not like.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,236
Location
Central Belt
Lib Dem writes letter to complain about service provision on a DfT managed operator. Letter gets put in bin. Conservative complains about service provision, suddenly the timetable changes.
considering who is the MP for Welwyn Hatfield, I am surprised GTR are allowed to only run 1tph to his local station in the peak. It is very concerning that if they are doing that to him - what lies ahead.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,186
considering who is the MP for Welwyn Hatfield, I am surprised GTR are allowed to only run 1tph to his local station in the peak. It is very concerning that if they are doing that to him - what lies ahead.

ministers are very specifically not permitted to make decisions that directly affect their constituency.
 

Failed Unit

Established Member
Joined
26 Jan 2009
Messages
9,236
Location
Central Belt
ministers are very specifically not permitted to make decisions that directly affect their constituency.
That is why he is much more quiet about how poor GTR are now. Back in 2018 he was calling for them to be removed. Now the service is actually less reliable and he is very quiet.
 

Some guy

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2022
Messages
451
Location
Preston
No different to today really. The 802 changes cost a unit in their own right (~15 min dwells at Manchester Victoria each way to join up the paths, plus a longer turnaround at Liverpool) and only 'save' 5 units in return. So in essence 4 extra 802s sitting around.

Don't get me wrong, it's disappointing, but the ambition is clearly still there.
2 units are also going to be used on the MIA-Edinburgh services from the may timetable
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top