May 2022 Timetable Changes

[James90012]

Agreed. The issue is not necessarily that the service has been removed, but Avanti have clearly not thought through the impacts it could have on their customers sufficiently and have made the change for operational reasons. Even agreeing with Northern to accept their tickets temporarily would be reasonable. People build their lives around the railway, that's not to say that changes can never be made but making locally significant changes without consultation is poor.

It seems Stoke struggles with that time of day as the XC service is also routed via Crewe in the hour it would otherwise pass through Stoke.

 

[Greybeard33]

Is it not the case that the revenue from the Avanti-only season tickets now goes to the DfT, and so does not directly benefit Avanti? If so, what is the point of continuing to sell these restrictive single operator tickets?

 

[Watershed]

Is it not the case that the revenue from the Avanti-only season tickets now goes to the DfT, and so does not directly benefit Avanti? If so, what is the point of continuing to sell these restrictive single operator tickets?

Operators are still required to act in a largely siloed manner when it comes to fares. It is a quite ridiculous situation when you consider the fact that all the franchises are now under direct DfT control.

That said, offering a lower fare to encourage people to use the longest and most frequent trains on the route is fairly rational, in terms of the effective utilisation of capacity.

 

[Bikeman78]

But to the general public it is increasingly seen as exactly this. The railway industry spent months telling us not to use them, then when TOCs started to encourage people back they started to cut services, making rail use for many just that little bit harder.

A brilliant example of this is Southern binning the entire class 455 fleet and cutting numerous metro services and shortening others to achieve this. They might as well have binned the 455s in March 2020. Meanwhile the Dutch railways started running extra services in December 2021, e.g. an Intercity every 10 minutes from Utrecht to Arnhem. Totally different mindset.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

A brilliant example of this is Southern binning the entire class 455 fleet and cutting numerous metro services and shortening others to achieve this. They might as well have binned the 455s in March 2020. Meanwhile the Dutch railways started running extra services in December 2021, e.g. an Intercity every 10 minutes from Utrecht to Arnhem. Totally different mindset.

Income tax is also considerably higher in the Netherlands which in part allows for higher subsidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A brilliant example of this is Southern binning the entire class 455 fleet and cutting numerous metro services and shortening others to achieve this. They might as well have binned the 455s in March 2020. Meanwhile the Dutch railways started running extra services in December 2021, e.g. an Intercity every 10 minutes from Utrecht to Arnhem. Totally different mindset.

Southern were clearly in the position, with reduced commuting, to reduce their fleet a bit, but it seems binning off the 455s was a move too far. I've not used it, but I don't doubt the 4-car WLL services are back to leaving people behind. The WCML and Croydon extensions never really made much difference to loadings - most of it is and always has been Watford/Wembley to Shepherd's Bush.

 

[Bikeman78]

Southern were clearly in the position, with reduced commuting, to reduce their fleet a bit, but it seems binning off the 455s was a move too far. I've not used it, but I don't doubt the 4-car WLL services are back to leaving people behind. The WCML and Croydon extensions never really made much difference to loadings - most of it is and always has been Watford/Wembley to Shepherd's Bush.

Well quite. They reduced both frequency and length on some routes. It's been years since anything was booked fewer than than eight cars in the metro area on weekdays. Stoppers from Victoria to Selhurst are down to half hourly. Years ago they were every 10 minutes, more recently every 15 minutes. At least the remaining trains are still eight cars on that route.

 

[paul1609]

In honesty, I'm amazed at how little furore there has been about northern timetables being decimated. Whether its Northern themselves, TPE or XC, the North appears to be getting a real bum deal here.

It's truly outrageous that some northern routes are seeing less trains run than during lockdown. In my whole lifetime I've not seen such poor service as being introduced today on, for instance, the Dearne Valley route.

Then there's the shambles that currently is cross country. I find it beyond appalling that they've been allowed to consistently run less than 50% of their services (atleast in terms of destinations).

Why is no one being held to account? The excuses keep piling up and they're very much wearing thin.

I don't think it's just a North thing. See the thread about the Southern May timetable. Services along the south coast are being decimated with 2 fleets of elderly units being paid off without replacement by shortening formations and massive timetable cuts.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

But to the general public it is increasingly seen as exactly this. The railway industry spent months telling us not to use them, then when TOCs started to encourage people back they started to cut services, making rail use for many just that little bit harder. Oh and there were the price hikes, so "Trains are dangerous for covid" + less services + above inflation price rises = Less confidence in the railway network. And that will lead to fewer passengers, less profits and yes job cuts in the industry. And yet the industry, & its associated unions seem hell bent on continuing to make things more difficult.

This isn't a go at the individual staff BTW, but the whole industry needs to think long & hard about the consequences of this, especially under a Conservative government now looking to claw back hundreds of billions.


I'm going to hazard that many of these staff where not train crews, or certainly not drivers? You are right in that you can't plan with more than you have, but the industry has had over 2 years to get to grips with the situation.

Its not the TOC's though, their hands are tied. Its the DfT and Treasury that are the ones doing all of the cuts. The TOC's are just carying out the cuts.

If you want a reverse on the cuts, you need to get the Treasury to agree to fund the railway more.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If you want a reverse on the cuts, you need to get the Treasury to agree to fund the railway more.

And when you suggest to people taxes ought to go up to fund this most people loose interest and don’t what it to happen instead be funded from the magic money tree.

 

[Watershed]

And when you suggest to people taxes ought to go up to fund this most people loose interest and don’t what it to happen instead be funded from the magic money tree.

The magic money tree has funded so many other things over recent years that it's difficult to claim it "can't" be done. Really this is just the Treasury (fairly impotently) shaking its fist and demanding savings at any cost. The fact that these cutbacks are saving maybe 5%, yet mean reductions of 20-40% in services, seems to pass them by.

Penny wise, pound foolish as always.

 

[Some guy]

What a surprise almost all TPE Scotland services cancelled yet again with Avanti picking up the slack. It’s a disgrace they won’t get to the table to negotiate and then this mess will finally be resolved

 

[HamworthyGoods]

What a surprise almost all TPE Scotland services cancelled yet again with Avanti picking up the slack. It’s a disgrace they won’t get to the table to negotiate and then this mess will finally be resolved

Didn’t the Unions end the Rest Day Working agreement?

 

[Fokx]

What a surprise almost all TPE Scotland services cancelled yet again with Avanti picking up the slack. It’s a disgrace they won’t get to the table to negotiate and then this mess will finally be resolved

If you think that’s bad, 55% of the hourly Manchester to Hull services are cancelled tomorrow and Northern are still running a 2tp3hr service

 

[Some guy]

Didn’t the Unions end the Rest Day Working agreement?

It was TPE refusing to extend it. It seems they don’t care that trains are being cancelled as the big bosses will still be making the big bucks while passengers suffer

If you think that’s bad, 55% of the hourly Manchester to Hull services are cancelled tomorrow and Northern are still running a 2tp3hr service

It’s a shambles it’s not even the next day yet. The DFT have to step in and do something about this. First group should stick to what they’re good at and that’s buses

 

[Starmill]

It was TPE refusing to extend it.

Is that so? Are you sure?

 

[Some guy]

Is that so? Are you sure?

Yeah it’s the exact same with Avanti drivers in December they only got a 6 month extension on rest day working but that is almost up and first don’t want to extend it

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It’s a shambles it’s not even the next day yet. The DFT have to step in and do something about this. First group should stick to what they’re good at and that’s buses

I don't think they are much good at buses either.

 

[Some guy]

I don't think they are much good at buses either.

They make arriva look good and that’s really difficult to do so

 

[Pinus contorta]

Their bus division isn't looking very clever tbh.

 

[Watershed]

Yeah it’s the exact same with Avanti drivers in December they only got a 6 month extension on rest day working but that is almost up and first don’t want to extend it

Repeating that claim doesn't make it true. Whilst the service is indeed appalling, there are 'greater forces' at work here.

 

[Bantamzen]

Its not the TOC's though, their hands are tied. Its the DfT and Treasury that are the ones doing all of the cuts. The TOC's are just carying out the cuts.

If you want a reverse on the cuts, you need to get the Treasury to agree to fund the railway more.

But it is not as binary as that. Yes there should be more help from the Treasury, and they need to look at how to fund that through existing tax revenue structures. But TOCs also have a role to play in recovery of the industry, and cutting services right at the point where passenger numbers are rising & could rise more is the wrong way to go about it. The road to recovery requires encouraging passengers back onto trains, but they are in some cases doing exactly the opposite. It doesn't help that they are still using "because covid" in many instances to justify these cuts. The industry spent most of 2020 & much of 2021 discouraging punters from using their trains, and the public duly walked away. Now they need to get them back, not just sit lazily by holding out their begging bowl as they did for the las two yeas.

 

[tomuk]

But TOCs also have a role to play in recovery of the industry, and cutting services right at the point where passenger numbers are rising & could rise more is the wrong way to go about it.

The TOCs don't have a role that's the point. They are like zombies all control is now with DFT/Treasury civil servants. They have been virtually nationalised. The franchise have been terminated and are now on ERMAs leading to PSCs under GBR. It is like buses or the Overground in London the operator (TOC) runs the service TfL tell them end of.

The industry spent most of 2020 & much of 2021 discouraging punters from using their trains, and the public duly walked away. Now they need to get them back, not just sit lazily by holding out their begging bowl as they did for the las two yeas.

The government told the public not to use trains not the industry. No passengers no Industry. The Government stepped in and bailed the TOCs out to keep things running.

 

[dan4291]

Lumo have retimed their 1S99 from Kings Cross to Newcastle to start at 2027 (before the timetable change it was 2018), still arriving at Newcastle at 2304, making the journey 2 hours 37 minutes. Is that the fastest journey between London and Newcastle at the moment? AFAIK LNER don't do a northbound Flying Scotsman service so I reckon it is.

 

[Watershed]

Lumo have retimed their 1S99 from Kings Cross to Newcastle to start at 2027 (before the timetable change it was 2018), still arriving at Newcastle at 2304, making the journey 2 hours 37 minutes. Is that the fastest journey between London and Newcastle at the moment? AFAIK LNER don't do a northbound Flying Scotsman service so I reckon it is.

Yes; and that's with 4.5 mins pathing as well. So would be 2h33m with a clean run.

 

[driverd]

Just a little spot - is the EMR service to Leeds now completely withdrawn?

 

[Watershed]

Just a little spot - is the EMR service to Leeds now completely withdrawn?

Yes. Last ran on Friday 13th, with 222001 doing the honours on 1F56 16:32 STP-LDS / 1C02 20:37 LDS-DBY.

 

[A0]

The magic money tree has funded so many other things over recent years that it's difficult to claim it "can't" be done. Really this is just the Treasury (fairly impotently) shaking its fist and demanding savings at any cost. The fact that these cutbacks are saving maybe 5%, yet mean reductions of 20-40% in services, seems to pass them by.

Penny wise, pound foolish as always.

Your missing the point - losing 20-40% of services (which may or may not be true) is immaterial. The key to this is cost saving - so saving 5%, unless the drop in revenue at the farebox is *more* than that, it's actually a gain.

And if revenue levels are stable even with a 20% service level drop, then that's a significant improvement in matters.

Just a little spot - is the EMR service to Leeds now completely withdrawn?

But didn't those exist in part because EMR's HSTs were maintained at Neville Hill ? So once they no longer had HSTs, there wasn't actually a need to run EMR services to Leeds.

Is it not the case that the revenue from the Avanti-only season tickets now goes to the DfT, and so does not directly benefit Avanti? If so, what is the point of continuing to sell these restrictive single operator tickets?

Presumably to manage demand and encourage the use of certain services ?

 

[swt_passenger]

But didn't those exist in part because EMR's HSTs were maintained at Neville Hill ? So once they no longer had HSTs, there wasn't actually a need to run EMR services to Leeds.

Yes, probably the original reasoning, but the service wasn’t in the franchise spec when it was last up for grabs anyway. The present lot presumably thought they could run to Leeds for their own commercial reasons, but latterly there was no up service to St Pancras which was somewhat odd…

 

[A0]

Yes, probably the original reasoning, but the service wasn’t in the franchise spec when it was last up for grabs anyway. The present lot presumably thought they could run to Leeds for their own commercial reasons, but latterly there was no up service to St Pancras which was somewhat odd…

BIB - I doubt it, more likely to retain route knowledge - a bit like the couple of times a day services which run beyond Corby via Oakham and Melton.