May 2023 changes

[dk1]

Yes, there appear to be more Liverpool Street to Ely services as a result.

That makes far more sense.

 

[bramling]

Love the way it’s all positive, even where services are being removed or journey times extended!

Great minds think alike. I was amused at how removing the King’s Lynn service has been spun as “optimising” the service.

To be fair, I can get why - especially now with the regular 8-car GN service - King’s Lynn is probably better served by just GN. However why not just come out and be honest when we all know the actual motivation for this is simply to cut costs.

 

[JonathanH]

However why not just come out and be honest when we all know the actual motivation for this is simply to cut costs.

You say that it is cuts, but why are there extra services from Liverpool Street extended beyond Cambridge North to Ely?

 

[dk1]

Great minds think alike. I was amused at how removing the King’s Lynn service has been spun as “optimising” the service.

To be fair, I can get why - especially now with the regular 8-car GN service - King’s Lynn is probably better served by just GN. However why not just come out and be honest when we all know the actual motivation for this is simply to cut costs.

GA drivers at Cambridge were tipped off a couple of years back that they’d not be going beyond Ely. The ever popular GN services rule that route.

 

[Techniquest]

It seems like to be the 1807 Marylebone to Stourbridge is. 1707 is terminating at snow hill. weekends it seems to be 2 hopefully be locos still.

Thanks That sounds like a good choice, surely the 1807 will catch more of the evening peak than the 1707?

 

[Fisherman80]

This is a weird one - there will be absolutely zero saving in crew or train costs due to how the units are diagrammed.

Im not at all surprised that services are being cut again Between Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley.
I've observed Bradford bound trains at Bingley practically empty,while the Leeds trains always have healthy loadings.
Forster Square station itself feels unsafe,especially at night. There are also no toilet facilities,and the lack of any buses to connect with the Interchange,which is considered the main station for Bradford,is a complete joke.
Let's be honest,if you live close to any Airedale/Wharfedale line station and are spending money on shopping,days out or entertainment Bradford just isn't an attractive option.
It's all very well Bradford council moaning about the service cuts but the council only have themselves to blame as to why people do not visit Bradford.

 

[sufian123]

Thanks That sounds like a good choice, surely the 1807 will catch more of the evening peak than the 1707?

An expert will need to answer this question. im not sure with the loadings.

 

[Ex-controller]

A positive step in the right direction at least, just need the full 0630-1930 15-min service back Mon-Fri.

Unless a huge turnaround in passenger loadings is seen, we won’t see that for some time, possibly ever. The days of business travellers just nipping through to Edinburgh or Glasgow for a meeting are behind us.

Gourock off peak expresses, which have been around ever since the line was electrified in the 1960s, are gone. A handful of Cathcart Circle services reintroduced, and additional calls for Edinburgh-Aberdeen services at Cupar., are other changes in Scotland.

There’s also going to be an additional Glasgow to Oban service on summer Sundays as well.

 

[Techniquest]

An expert will need to answer this question. im not sure with the loadings.

Understandable, nor am I. The Chiltern network is not regularly visited by me, and the use of the 68-hauled workings is very limited. I had intended my question to be read as an open question to everyone, not just yourself, so my apologies if it put you under the spotlight!

 

[sufian123]

Understandable, nor am I. The Chiltern network is not regularly visited by me, and the use of the 68-hauled workings is very limited. I had intended my question to be read as an open question to everyone, not just yourself, so my apologies if it put you under the spotlight!

Hey no worries. I hope you get the answer you’re looking for.

 

[hexagon789]

Unless a huge turnaround in passenger loadings is seen, we won’t see that for some time, possibly ever. The days of business travellers just nipping through to Edinburgh or Glasgow for a meeting are behind us.

I appreciate its not happening at the moment and arguably running 8-car 385s all day negates the need to run 15-min frequency for capacity reasons; one can still hope...

Gourock off peak expresses, which have been around ever since the line was electrified in the 1960s, are gone. A handful of Cathcart Circle services reintroduced

I noticed those changes

additional calls for Edinburgh-Aberdeen services at Cupar

IInteresting they've chosen Cupar, Amy particular reason? Traditionally I'd expect Kirkcaldy, possibly Inverkeithing to be more likely to feature.

There’s also going to be an additional Glasgow to Oban service on summer Sundays as well.

Interesting, must be getting busier out that way then?

 

[Kite159]

There’s also going to be an additional Glasgow to Oban service on summer Sundays as well.

Is that in addition to the Edinburgh - Oban summer Sunday train or a replacement?

 

[sammyg901]

Thanks That sounds like a good choice, surely the 1807 will catch more of the evening peak than the 1707?

The 1807 ex-Marylebone fits in between the first 30 minute gap between WMR northbound services, so quite useful. Whereas when the 1707 arrives in Birmingham the 15 min peak frequency is still running so doesn't add much value and may as well go straight into the depot

 

[Techniquest]

The 1807 ex-Marylebone fits in between the first 30 minute gap between WMR northbound services, so quite useful. Whereas when the 1707 arrives in Birmingham the 15 min peak frequency is still running so doesn't add much value and may as well go straight into the depot

Makes sense All fuel savings, no matter how small, mount up so it feels like a good decision.

 

[Ex-controller]

Is that in addition to the Edinburgh - Oban summer Sunday train or a replacement?

Replacement- uses the same path but originates from Queen Street.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Replacement- uses the same path but originates from Queen Street.

That’s a step backwards sadly!

 

[Stopper]

I appreciate its not happening at the moment and arguably running 8-car 385s all day negates the need to run 15-min frequency for capacity reasons; one can still hope...



I noticed those changes


IInteresting they've chosen Cupar, Amy particular reason? Traditionally I'd expect Kirkcaldy, possibly Inverkeithing to be more likely to feature.


Interesting, must be getting busier out that way then?

Cupar always had a bit of a short straw as it couldn’t be served by Perth/Inverness services, like Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch and Ladybank. I don’t think Aberdeen services calling there is a bad thing.

 

[ATW158Xpress]

It appears that TFW have removed some changes from RTT for May timetable change like the hourly Cardiff to Cheltenham and no Newport to Crosskeys service. Is the reason why is 170s going off lease and the current issues with the 175s to blame?

 

[Class 170101]

Yes, there appear to be more Liverpool Street to Ely services as a result.

From memory - pre-pandemic
1H83, 1H87, 2H13 and 2H15 haven't changed.
1H82, 1H86, 2H42 and 2H78 haven't changed.
1H90 (1907) seems to have been replaced by a re-timed 2H54 19:07 from 19:11.
2H63 seems to be the only extra one, starting back from Ely at 20:00.

 

[D6130]

Im not at all surprised that services are being cut again Between Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley.
I've observed Bradford bound trains at Bingley practically empty,while the Leeds trains always have healthy loadings.
Forster Square station itself feels unsafe,especially at night. There are also no toilet facilities,and the lack of any buses to connect with the Interchange,which is considered the main station for Bradford,is a complete joke.
Let's be honest,if you live close to any Airedale/Wharfedale line station and are spending money on shopping,days out or entertainment Bradford just isn't an attractive option.
It's all very well Bradford council moaning about the service cuts but the council only have themselves to blame as to why people do not visit Bradford.

I was speaking to one of my ex-colleagues from Skipton earlier today and he said that the real reason why the Ilkley/Skipton-Bradford off-peak services are reverting to hourly in May is because Northern - and Skipton depot in particular - are haemorrhaging drivers like there's no tomorrow at the moment. Let's face it, when LNER and Grand Central are recruiting in Leeds and Bradford, who wants to do endless ten hour shifts with twelve to fourteen trips calling at all stops round the triangles?

 

[YSTrains]

Can someone tell me the changes for SWR and Southern please?

 

[SuperLuke2334]

It appears that TFW have removed some changes from RTT for May timetable change like the hourly Cardiff to Cheltenham and no Newport to Crosskeys service. Is the reason why is 170s going off lease and the current issues with the 175s to blame?

I don't think TfW have fully confirmed their timetables yet though.

 

[a1904]

I was speaking to one of my ex-colleagues from Skipton earlier today and he said that the real reason why the Ilkley/Skipton-Bradford off-peak services are reverting to hourly in May is because Northern - and Skipton depot in particular - are haemorrhaging drivers like there's no tomorrow at the moment. Let's face it, when LNER and Grand Central are recruiting in Leeds and Bradford, who wants to do endless ten hour shifts with twelve to fourteen trips calling at all stops round the triangles?

Interesting, can't say I've seen any job ads for round there so clearly don't seem to be much interested in changing that

 

[johntea]

So we've gone from a full day service on Huddersfield - Castleford, to peak tim only RRB, to peak time only train and now to no train at all. What a pathetic shambles.

I was on one of these peaks between Wakefield and Normanton yesterday and it was busy considering.

I wonder what timetabling disaster will befall LNER passengers.

An interesting update today in the paper, it looks like TransPennine Express are (were!) planning to extend the Manchester to Huddersfield service to York via Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford from May so Northern didn't expect to need to run their service any more, but have now delayed that until at least December so Northern have now been instructed to provide a replacement bus service in the meantime!

I guess the positive to come out of this is we now know there is at least *theoretically* something in the works for direct Castleford to York services!

Huddersfield to Castleford rail service to be axed and replaced with bus service for seven months

The rail service between Huddersfield and Castleford is to be axed for seven months and replaced with a bus service, doubling journey times.

www.wakefieldexpress.co.uk

Huddersfield to Castleford rail service to be axed and replaced with bus service for seven months
The rail service between Huddersfield and Castleford is to be axed for seven months and replaced with a bus service, doubling journey times.

By Tony Gardner

A councillor today (March 10) blamed the disruption on a ‘failure of co-operation’ by rail authorities and operators.

The Northern service, which runs between Huddersfield, Deighton, Mirfield, Wakefield Kirkgate, Normanton and Castleford stations, will not be in operation between May and December this year.

A report to the West Yorkshire Combined Authority transport committee described the service as being “sporadic for some years”.

At present the service runs only three times a day each way, with no trains on Sundays.

Plans had been place for TransPennine Express (TPE) to extend its existing hourly Manchester to Huddersfield service, to run on via Wakefield Kirkgate and Castleford through to York from May 2023.

The report states: “This would replace and fulfil the role of the Northern service between Huddersfield and Castleford.

“This is a proposal that the Combined Authority strongly supports, since it improves connectivity, including new links to employment sites at Sherburn-in-Elmet.

“However, ongoing issues with TPE mean that, at late notice, the decision was made to defer this change to the December 2023 timetable change.”

“Northern was not expecting to run the service beyond May, so had not ‘bid’ the services through industry processes.”

Northern has been instructed to run replacement buses, with journey times around double those of the trains, from May to December.

The report adds: “This is considered unacceptable, and we are pushing to find an alternative solution to maintain or re-establish a rail service as soon as possible.”

Committee member, Coun Kevin Swift told a meeting today: “We are talking about the failure of the machinery to coordinate.

“Somewhere between the stools of the various operators and other people, they have managed to lose the service.

“It’s not been cut back through any particular intention or any misguided prioritisation of the service.

“It’s simply been a failure of the actual machinery of coordination.”

Coun Swift said the service “took the hit” around three years ago when Northern “de-prioritised” it due to a shortage of trains.

He added: “We were very much looking forward to the prospect of restoration of a full service but also that service being extended to York.

“TransPennine first of all said they could do it and then later said they couldn’t.

“Then Northern said ‘we are sorry, but we are no longer in a position to do it. We thought it was going to get done by TransPennine.’

“One can understand, to some degree, and sympathise with the position of both operators.

“But who the hell is doing the coordination on this?”

“I question Network Rail, I question the role of the department for transport, and certainly Northern.

“The government has said they want the Great British railways brought back. Still, nothing is happening.

“The lack of coordination has shown up in this instance.

“We have simply had a service between two quite significant towns that has just fallen between the cracks.

“What has happened should not have happened.”

 

[Peterthegreat]

It's not the first time TPE have (not) done something and Northern haven't. Until about five years ago TPE provided some local services (as part of Cleethorpes to Sheffield/Manchester) in South Yorkshire. TPE withdrew the stops as Northern should have provided extra services. Northern didn't and there were large gaps at certain times.

 

[PGAT]

Can someone tell me the changes for SWR and Southern please?

Southern are altering departure times on the East Coastway, and adding 2tph off-peak between Brighton and Eastbourne.

I’m not sure what’s up with SWR

 

[MikeWM]

You say that it is cuts, but why are there extra services from Liverpool Street extended beyond Cambridge North to Ely?

...and why is it planned that two of the four down evening services will not actually stop at Cambridge North, while all four of the morning up services will do so?

I understand why they didn't while this was a historic and somewhat anomalous service, but now it has been 'regularised', it seems reasonable that all of them should call. The one that passes Cambridge North at 1822 would be particularly useful to stop, as it might help relieve the crowding usually seen on the 1834 to Norwich.

 

[Ex-controller]

That’s a step backwards sadly!

No

 

[47421]

Never was that well used even before the pandemic. I’m amazed it lasted this long.

well yes, but the three through KL/LivSt services have been in timetable/franchise requirement for many years, and in fact one of the many wildly optimistic commitments GA made in 2016 was to run 10car 720s to KL. Admittedly the number of passengers from north of Ely using this service for direct access to the City is now probably nil or near nil.

if we cant have any of the timetable improvements promised in 2016 I suppose we should be grateful to be getting back near what we have had since 2011 on West Anglia - the return of all the peak fast Cambridges (1707/37/1807/37 and 1907) is welcome even if they have picked up Brox stops

105.2 Pursuant to paragraph 105.1 such changes to the infrastructure shall include such infrastructure works at each of Hertford East, Wickford, Manningtree, Kings Lynn, Elsenham, Ware, St Margarets and Enfield Lock Stations as are necessary to enable any Passenger Services comprised of 10 rolling stock vehicles to call at such Stations by no later than 1 September 2018.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Im not at all surprised that services are being cut again Between Bradford Forster Square to Skipton and Ilkley.
I've observed Bradford bound trains at Bingley practically empty,while the Leeds trains always have healthy loadings.
Forster Square station itself feels unsafe,especially at night. There are also no toilet facilities,and the lack of any buses to connect with the Interchange,which is considered the main station for Bradford,is a complete joke.
Let's be honest,if you live close to any Airedale/Wharfedale line station and are spending money on shopping,days out or entertainment Bradford just isn't an attractive option.
It's all very well Bradford council moaning about the service cuts but the council only have themselves to blame as to why people do not visit Bradford.

It's an odd one because, as has already been said, there are no non-negligible savings to be made. Electric services proceed around the Shipley 'Triangle' in a set pattern, and removing a few Bradford services won't reduce the number of EMUs, drivers or conductors needed to run them.

I was speaking to one of my ex-colleagues from Skipton earlier today and he said that the real reason why the Ilkley/Skipton-Bradford off-peak services are reverting to hourly in May is because Northern - and Skipton depot in particular - are haemorrhaging drivers like there's no tomorrow at the moment. Let's face it, when LNER and Grand Central are recruiting in Leeds and Bradford, who wants to do endless ten hour shifts with twelve to fourteen trips calling at all stops round the triangles?

Indeed - but the 'revised' timetable will still need the same amount of crew!