McGill's Scotland East (Midland Bluebird and Eastern Scottish)

[Mal]

Livingston depot at Deans

Thanks. That's quite a distance each day! Did someone not say that McGills were selling Livingston?

 

[LothianBusesPh]

Did someone not say that McGills were selling Livingston?

Not happening.

 

[scosutsut]

Who was it who said that Lothian Country cutting back after McGills bought out First, was a masterstroke? They turned out to be bang on the money.

I was certainly one of the voices that said it. It left the role of panto villian in the public sphere to fall to McGills. I didn't anticipate they'd throw themselves into the role with quite as much gusto however!

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

Where are Bright Bus based? If it's outwith the city then there must be quite a lot of dead mileage each day to eat into the profits.

From there Livingston depot to St Andrew’s Square in Edinburgh it’s approximately 19 miles or just short of that, twice a day, 7 days a week.

Taking into consideration the average forecourt cost of diesel of £1.52p, base that on one of there Volvo B9TL deckers averaging 5mpg travelling 38 miles(in and out) of edinburgh, 7 days a week and you get a basic weekly fuel cost of running dead of £367.64.

Of course this is an extreme hypothetical calculation based on forecourt prices and not the exact cost of operation, actual average fuel economy etc, the company bulk buys fuel at a cheaper cost per litre as well so it will be less than £367.64 per week per bus, how much cheaper? I’m unsure but that figure is for one bus and that obviously excludes all other costs, wages etc.

 

[InOban]

Given house prices in Edinburgh it may be much easier to recruit drivers living in Deans than in any likely location in the city

 

[Stan Drews]

I will make this my last post on this subject, as we could get bogged down in interpretation. It is my belief that McGill's played the game and lost, they would have continued had they been given subsidies to run them. Lothian seem to be able to provide services without subsidies. Are you suggesting they are making a profit on these routes? I can assure you at this time they are not. They may turn a profit now that they will be the main operator, but time will tell how much.

Probably a blessing that it’s your last post on the subject, as your ‘beliefs’ are clearly misguided.
In recent years SPT in particular have had a bizarre record regarding the replacement of withdrawn commercial services, so I’d doubt any bus operator would know how to ‘play the game’.
Where McGill’s have withdrawn routes, they have done so because they operate at a loss. If SPT (or other councils) decide to tender them, then that is a decision they have no influence over.
Lothian have steadily withdrawn the majority of their commercial routes across West Lothian, presumably because they weren’t making a profit. However, they are due to commence two routes that will be subsidised by West Lothian Council, one new route using developer funding, and another being taken over from Horsburgh.

 

[gingerheid]

It's a shame improved rail services become part of the downfall of buses, when a sensible public transport strategy with integrated planning and ticketing would let trains and buses (and trams) support each other. I get more in favour of franchising with every day that passes.

 

[markymark2000]

It's a shame improved rail services become part of the downfall of buses, when a sensible public transport strategy with integrated planning and ticketing would let trains and buses (and trams) support each other. I get more in favour of franchising with every day that passes.

Franchising doesn't mean that it will solve the issues. Integrated ticketing could happen now but those in power don't want it because it makes any public ownership arguement fall apart. Look at SPT, they refuse to get integrated tickets, that's why the bus operators have taken it upon themselves to create the Glasgow Tripper.

I'd also add, how much integrated ticketing is there between Lothian and Scotrail? Lothian a municipal and Scotrail the govt owned train operator. The answer, very little. There's Plusbus (which is also valid in Livingston) and integrated ticketing to the Airport. That's it. For proper integrated travel, you need lots of passionate people who all want the same thing and you need a pot of money to pay for it and no one wants to pay for it because in most instances, someone, somewhere loses out.

 

[Voyager lad]

It's a shame improved rail services become part of the downfall of buses, when a sensible public transport strategy with integrated planning and ticketing would let trains and buses (and trams) support each other. I get more in favour of franchising with every day that passes.

I’d argue that actually, rail in West Lothian has gotten worse, down to 2 trains each hour from Bathgate/Livingston North into Edinburgh, with very few peak extras. Pre Covid you had up to 6 trains an hour on the route. Similarly Livingston South and the Shotts line is just 1 train an hour. The trains are surely not beating the buses that much?

In my mind though a couple of integrated routes would do really well. The former 27 could’ve been tweaked to run Livingston South station - Livingston North station, brand it up in ScotRail branding (like the 398 in Glasgow), and run it as a joint bus/train route.

 

[davp]

I’d argue that actually, rail in West Lothian has gotten worse, down to 2 trains each hour from Bathgate/Livingston North into Edinburgh, with very few peak extras. Pre Covid you had up to 6 trains an hour on the route. Similarly Livingston South and the Shotts line is just 1 train an hour. The trains are surely not beating the buses that much?

In my mind though a couple of integrated routes would do really well. The former 27 could’ve been tweaked to run Livingston South station - Livingston North station, brand it up in ScotRail branding (like the 398 in Glasgow), and run it as a joint bus/train route.

Livingston South line goes back to 2tph in December, and Livi North was 4tph - only one train is missing from the morning peak. Trains aren't rammed, and it's much, much better than before electrification - and there's new links west. Livi North to Haymarket is under 20 mins. X24 from Livi Centre to Haymarket about an hour, longer in the peak.

McGills have been driving a lot of fresh air for a long time just as First did before them. They have been following the X27/X28 around North Livi for months/years with buses that are usually empty and I'm surprised it's gone on this long. I struggle to believe they invested £4.5 million here, it's as credible as them blaming the railway electrification for their problems. At least they are leaving cleanly which gives better options for whatever happens next in West Lothian.

 

[stevenedin]

Franchising doesn't mean that it will solve the issues. Integrated ticketing could happen now but those in power don't want it because it makes any public ownership arguement fall apart. Look at SPT, they refuse to get integrated tickets, that's why the bus operators have taken it upon themselves to create the Glasgow Tripper.

I'd also add, how much integrated ticketing is there between Lothian and Scotrail? Lothian a municipal and Scotrail the govt owned train operator. The answer, very little. There's Plusbus (which is also valid in Livingston) and integrated ticketing to the Airport. That's it. For proper integrated travel, you need lots of passionate people who all want the same thing and you need a pot of money to pay for it and no one wants to pay for it because in most instances, someone, somewhere loses out.

There is One-Ticket that provides rail and bus in the one ticket.

 

[Man of Kent]

There is One-Ticket that provides rail and bus in the one ticket.

Which, if it is on the McGill's Scotland East website, is very well hidden indeed.

 

[markymark2000]

There is One-Ticket that provides rail and bus in the one ticket.

Apologise, forgot about that one.

 

[roadierway77]

In my mind though a couple of integrated routes would do really well. The former 27 could’ve been tweaked to run Livingston South station - Livingston North station, brand it up in ScotRail branding (like the 398 in Glasgow), and run it as a joint bus/train route.

If the 25 (or its successor) was increased to every 20 minutes and extended to Livingston South, I feel like it could do quite well. When it isn't cancelled, the 25 appears to get healthy loadings from my observations, and the bus connections from Livingston South to The Centre are poor.

There is One-Ticket that provides rail and bus in the one ticket.

If only the operators bothered to actively promote it... I hate to be cynical but I feel it's probably because buying separate tickets makes the individual operators more money; there's little motivation for them to promote it from a business perspective.

 

[NIT100]

Franchising doesn't mean that it will solve the issues. Integrated ticketing could happen now but those in power don't want it because it makes any public ownership arguement fall apart. Look at SPT, they refuse to get integrated tickets, that's why the bus operators have taken it upon themselves to create the Glasgow Tripper.

I'd also add, how much integrated ticketing is there between Lothian and Scotrail? Lothian a municipal and Scotrail the govt owned train operator. The answer, very little. There's Plusbus (which is also valid in Livingston) and integrated ticketing to the Airport. That's it. For proper integrated travel, you need lots of passionate people who all want the same thing and you need a pot of money to pay for it and no one wants to pay for it because in most instances, someone, somewhere loses out.

Plusbus is only currently valid with McGills in Livingston. No acceptance on Lothian or any small operators

 

[delt1c]

I’d argue that actually, rail in West Lothian has gotten worse, down to 2 trains each hour from Bathgate/Livingston North into Edinburgh, with very few peak extras. Pre Covid you had up to 6 trains an hour on the route. Similarly Livingston South and the Shotts line is just 1 train an hour. The trains are surely not beating the buses that much?

In my mind though a couple of integrated routes would do really well. The former 27 could’ve been tweaked to run Livingston South station - Livingston North station, brand it up in ScotRail branding (like the 398 in Glasgow), and run it as a joint bus/train route.

Rail services are no good to those who have concessions and rely on buses most

 

[overthewater]

The Rail services are also no good if your going to the Centre of Livingston. I remember in the early 2000s trying to get between the two it was like 25min round sightseeing trip.

 

[delt1c]

The Rail services are also no good if your going to the Centre of Livingston. I remember in the early 2000s trying to get between the two it was like 25min round sightseeing trip.

Agree. Livingston was designed when there was no rail and it was based around Eastern Scottish depot in the centre which was quickly sold, demolished and incorporated into the centre.

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Rail services are no good to those who have concessions and rely on buses most

Do concessions not get £1 singles and £1.50 returns on trains or is this only within the SPT area?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Do concessions not get £1 singles and £1.50 returns on trains or is this only within the SPT area?

West Lothian Council used to subsidise a similar discount scheme for (their own) concession pass holders wishing to make rail journeys but I believe they've ended it now.
I don't live there so I'm not 100% sure.

 

[overthewater]

As far as I know, the West Lothian rail discount scheme is gone, however the SPT is still going: see here for details: https://www.spt.co.uk/tickets/concessions/

 

[Jordan Adam]

The Rail services are also no good if your going to the Centre of Livingston. I remember in the early 2000s trying to get between the two it was like 25min round sightseeing trip.

Indeed, i fail to really see where rail services can really be blamed. None of the routes in the network directly compete with any significant rail links and any notable rail improvements that could've had an impact happened long before McGill's were on the scene.

Edinburgh to Bathgate direct hasn't been covered for the best part of 7 years and even when it was the frequency was hourly at best in latter years, this arguably is the biggest mistake Eastern Scottish made given the success Lothian have had off this corridor. The Shotts line doesn't really compete with any of the network significantly. Someone from the Livingston - Fauldhouse corridor is highly unlikely to use the 26 to travel to Edinburgh and likewise won't use rail to get to Livingston. Just generally rail is absolutely useless if you're traveling to St John's Hospital or Livingston Centre. McGill's were barely out of Greenock when a lot of the routes (commuter express network) that were affected by rail improvements were axed....

There were further issues with the network as a whole going back long before the takeover. The 2018 network review saw a simplification and far more consistency but there were some short comings. The most glaring mistake that made was having the 25 pointlessly run in to Edinburgh when the links it provided were already covered by the 24 or the journey times (to Bathgate for example) were excessively long. It would've made far more sense to just have the 25 operate Livingston - Blackridge and instead have the 22 continue in to Edinburgh via Craigshill, Fastlink and Broxburn. This also would've removed the need for the pointless Livingston - Broxburn section of the X23 while retaining the link between Edinburgh, Seafield, Blackburn and Whitburn which isn't covered by rail and existed prior to the changes. The X23 instead could've been tagged on to the 21 which again would've maintained and/or created links not covered by rail. Prior to 2018 the network was unnecessarily complicated and inconsistent with routes trying to do too many things at once.

 

[overthewater]

All I can say is: No wonder we have a real up hill battle when we have Transport minster who is clueless..

Transport Minister Fiona Hyslop said: “As the local MSP for the Linlithgow Constituency, I was shocked to hear McGill’s announce that they will cease all bus services in West Lothian from December 4.
“These bus services provide essential transport links for my constituents.

As the MSP For Linlithgow surly she should know it's Midland bluebird that operate the X38 and more importantly that not going anywhere

McGill's Eastern Scottish will pull its services from West Lothian in December

West Lothian’s bus services should be brought under public control, it has been argued, after it emerged McGills Eastern Scottish is set to pull its services from the county.

www.falkirkherald.co.uk

In other news the First minster (I hope the transport minster does not advise him on the details) I don't see how this is going to help the situation holding a meeting with West Lothian council, I think there was one in East Lothian in 2016?

First minister agrees to crisis meeting on axed local McGill's bus routes

It comes after bus operator McGill's announced it was cutting all its routes in West Lothian.

www.bbc.co.uk

The first minister has agreed to a crisis meeting with West Lothian Council over cancelled local bus services.
It comes after the area's major supplier, McGill's Eastern Scottish, announced it was quitting all its routes by December.
Towns and villages could now be left with little or no bus service.
McGill's said that, despite investing around £4.5m, current losses were simply unsustainable.
Humza Yousaf has now said a meeting will be held between the transport minister, local MSP Fiona Hyslop, and Transport Scotland to try and resolve the issue.
West Lothian Council leader Lawrence Fitzpatrick told the BBC's Good Morning Scotland radio programme that he was glad the first minister had agreed to facilitate the meeting.
"We need a bus service in our county without any doubt because thousands of people rely on buses to get to work and get to hospital," he said.
"These people are in a very untenable and frightening situation.
"The only solution is funding from the Scottish government to support local bus services and that is a message that has come across loud and clear from the bus operators themselves."

Earlier this year, the group Save Our Buses (West Lothian) protested after the Scottish government ended emergency Covid funding, which led to a reduction in services.
The worst-hit areas were the smallest and most poorly-served communities on the western fringe of West Lothian, including Greenrigg and Blackridge.
Partial restoration of those services only came about after the council agreed to subsidise buses to the villages. However, the new services ran less frequently than before.
Dee Pringle was one of the founders of the Save Our Buses group and told BBC Scotland News that the local community was not happy about the news from McGill's.
"Everyone is angry about this announcement, this affects everyone. I am a sales assistant, so getting a bus to Livingston centre is a must for me," the 25-year-old said.
Diane Hamilton, 39, lives in Whitburn and works in the endoscopy department at St John's hospital in Livingston.
"My anxiety about the buses being cancelled is through the roof," she said.

"I don't drive and nor can I afford to learn. I rely on the number 23 bus to get to work and home again.
"Without the bus, I will not be able to get to work, and so I'm torn. How will I be able to keep my job and pay my bills and mortgage? I am extremely worried about it."
On the social media site X, formerly known as Twitter, Transport Secretary Fiona Hyslop said: "The announcement from McGill's to cease services in West Lothian is extremely concerning and not in line with the improvement plans they laid out to me following their takeover of services from First Bus.
"I've requested an urgent meeting as the local MSP to pursue this issue."
McGill's made the announcement on Tuesday that they were pulling their services from West Lothian starting next month with the X22 and X24 Livingston-Edinburgh services being axed from 15 October.

McGill's chief executive Ralph Roberts said keeping the routes going was commercially unsustainable.
"We've owned the business just over a year now and it was an ailing business when we took it over," he said.

"The owners of McGill's have pumped in over £80,000 per week to keep this business going. We haven't just cut and run, we gave it our best shot."
He said financial struggles were down to a number of issues including competition in the area from rival service Lothian Buses, rail service coverage and the changes brought about by the Covid-19 pandemic.
Government funding is the only viable solution to keeping the service alive, he said.
"The commercia bus market will work with national and local governments in order to make this happen," Mr Roberts said.
"We subside routes all over Scotland but ultimately at this level of burn it's starting to affect bus services elsewhere, so something needs to be done."
A Transport Scotland spokesperson said the majority of bus services in Scotland were operated on a commercial basis by private bus companies and the power to subsidise services lay with the local authority.
"We are committed, alongside operators and local authorities, to improving services to ensure everyone has accessible public transport, regardless of geographic location," they said.
Additional reporting by the Local Democracy Reporting Service.

 

[CN04NRJ]

£80,000 per week for a calendar year is £4,160,000 - I'm guessing the £4.5m "investment" translates to operating costs in the real world. Truly misleading statement.

 

[Stan Drews]

£80,000 per week for a calendar year is £4,160,000 - I'm guessing the £4.5m "investment" translates to operating costs in the real world. Truly misleading statement.

Whilst investment is mentioned they did make it clear that it was largely covering ongoing costs.
“McGill’s Group has injected a total of £4.5million into McGill’s Eastern Scottish to turn round the ailing business.

Despite this substantial investment – a mixture of one-off investment and mainly ongoing subsidy from McGill’s Group and its owners -“

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

All I can say is: No wonder we have a real up hill battle when we have Transport minster who is clueless..



As the MSP For Linlithgow surly she should know it's Midland bluebird that operate the X38 and more importantly that not going anywhere

McGill's Eastern Scottish will pull its services from West Lothian in December

West Lothian’s bus services should be brought under public control, it has been argued, after it emerged McGills Eastern Scottish is set to pull its services from the county.

www.falkirkherald.co.uk

In other news the First minster (I hope the transport minster does not advise him on the details) I don't see how this is going to help the situation holding a meeting with West Lothian council, I think there was one in East Lothian in 2016?

First minister agrees to crisis meeting on axed local McGill's bus routes

It comes after bus operator McGill's announced it was cutting all its routes in West Lothian.

www.bbc.co.uk

So basically residents have been left without buses come December with no prospect of new services or even a depot to run them from.

 

[Siemens Trains]

So basically residents have been left without buses come December with no prospect of new services or even a depot to run them from.

In fairness it's not much worse than the ongoing situation over the past year.
You'd think whatever the Scottish Government can offer (and expectations from experience will be rather low) can only be an improvement.

 

[NorthOxonian]

All I can say is: No wonder we have a real up hill battle when we have Transport minster who is clueless..



As the MSP For Linlithgow surly she should know it's Midland bluebird that operate the X38 and more importantly that not going anywhere

McGill's Eastern Scottish will pull its services from West Lothian in December

West Lothian’s bus services should be brought under public control, it has been argued, after it emerged McGills Eastern Scottish is set to pull its services from the county.

www.falkirkherald.co.uk

In other news the First minster (I hope the transport minster does not advise him on the details) I don't see how this is going to help the situation holding a meeting with West Lothian council, I think there was one in East Lothian in 2016?

First minister agrees to crisis meeting on axed local McGill's bus routes

It comes after bus operator McGill's announced it was cutting all its routes in West Lothian.

www.bbc.co.uk

In Hyslop's defence, it is worth noting that she isn't just the MSP for Linlithgow - her constituency also includes Bathgate, Broxburn, and Whitburn. It's essentially everything in West Lothian except for Livingston and the A71 corridor.

 

[Mwanesh]

Can i ask a silly question. West Lothian Council are they not a minority shareholder in Lothian buses. Surely they could push for a network.

 

[Trnsprt4Sctlnd]

In fairness it's not much worse than the ongoing situation over the past year.
You'd think whatever the Scottish Government can offer (and expectations from experience will be rather low) can only be an improvement.

Absolute Truth!

Realistically lothian can’t help given the lack of drivers, however, I’m curious to how over the coming weeks this will be handled, as we all are.

But what I would wonder about is where West Lothian Council or someone else could get a new small depot sorted for services at such short notice, surely if Lothian Country was able to source something another area or building somewhere can be sourced as well.

Also whilst it’s only hypothetical and certainly a divisive thing to say is it time we should be asking for Private Companies who fail the public to be barred from operating commercial or subsidised services in these areas.

Can i ask a silly question. West Lothian Council are they not a minority shareholder in Lothian buses. Surely they could push for a network.

They are and should.