memories of fast trains SR

[frodshamfella]

When I was in my teens/20s I started to commute to London. My local station was Bexleyheath, I discovered there was different workings than the usual all stations to Charing Cross except St Johns. The fastest train we had was fast Kidbrook to Waterloo East then Charing Cross. Then there were a few peak services to Blackfriars and Holborn Viaduct. Some services running beyond Dartford to Gravesend or Gillingham, plus some terminating at Barnehurst or routed to Slade Green.

Then I noticed other commuter lines had some interesting services. On the Dartford Loop, trains running fast to Sidcup then all stops to Dartford, with some running further east and dividing at Strood half to Maidstone West and Half to Gillingham. Some services terminated at Sidcup only.

The Hayes line had fast peak services from London Bridge to Ladywell, there were peak service to Bromley North I think fast London Bridge to Grove Park.

Today the operations on most these southern suburban lines seem to me more "metro" like, and actually a bit less interesting. I don't live in the area now, but I just wondered what others thought.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember catching the odd Hayes service missing out Lewisham to Catford Bridge in the 1990's. I don't know how much quicker it was, but I imagine it made it easier to get the train towards Charing Cross with fewer conflicts.

Lovely comfy EPB stock in those days of course.

Whenever I go past the spur to Ladywell these days, it always looks as though it's been missed by the weedkiller train.

 

[30907]

Thats pretty much the pattern introduced with the last London Bridge rebuilding 40 years ago, and its still recognisable though altered in detail.

 

[36270k]

In the late 1970's there was a morning service from Sevenoaks to Cannon Street that was non stop from Petts Wood to Cannon St
The 8EPB would often do over 80mph through Grove Park on the up slow line.

 

[30907]

In the late 1970's there was a morning service from Sevenoaks to Cannon Street that was non stop from Petts Wood to Cannon St
The 8EPB would often do over 80mph through Grove Park on the up slow line.

Every 20 minutes originally, but ISTR the evening ones were lightly loaded by SE standards, which is why they disappeared relatively early.

 

[Welshman]

I studied in Canterbury from 1970-71, and one of the joys was using the xx00 from Charing Cross, which paused at Waterloo East and then proceeded non-stop through London Bridge to Ashford in Kent.

Once clear of Tonbridge it would go like the wind along the then four-tracked section through Staplehurst to Ashford. It was scheduled into Ashford at x57, but often reached that place in 55 minutes from Charing Cross.

 

[yorksrob]

Once clear of Tonbridge it would go like the wind along the then four-tracked section through Staplehurst to Ashford. It was scheduled into Ashford at x57, but often reached that place in 55 minutes from Charing Cross.

Infact the section was (and is) double track with two sets of passing loops at Paddock Wood and Headcorn. The fact that it gave the impression of being quadruple track illustrates how well laid out for fast running the route is.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Boat trains between Victoria and Dover were scheduled to run non-stop and often did; typically overtaking many other trains on the way, especially via Tonbridge with further loops there, at Ashford and Folkestone West-Central as well as those mentioned above.

The alternative routes via Chatham and Maidstone East were more challenging to get a non-stop run.

These train were not generally available to 'ordinary' passengers.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Get hold of G S Moodies book "Southern Electric" (1979) - a rich source of detail on timetable material and you will be amazed at the level of fast Kent Coast service in the 1960's electrification - fast Cannon St to Whitstable for example on peak workings.

 

[Taunton]

I think it was Gerry Fiennes, maybe not in his well-known book but in one of his Modern Railways articles (because the book doesn't really write about the Southern) who pointed the gross number of stops on the SE division in the peaks, where trains from Ramsgate were still picking up at Sevenoaks. He praised one of the periodic substantial timetable revisions where there was a half-hourly service stopping everywhere (which were called the "Dog & Monkey trains"), and everything else did enough stations for a good load, and then ran nonstop to London.

If it wasn't Fiennes it was David McKenna, GM of the SR in the 1960s-70s.

This applied to both longer distance and suburban services. One of the aims was to push interchange at London Bridge, where everything stopped and sapped line capacity, to stations further out, for passengers to change between Charing Cross and Cannon Street services.

I was for some years perplexed with how the many nonstop peak services from Cannon Street to the North Kent coast, Faversham/Margate, could run, as I knew all the routes out through Dartford were just double track and full up with stoppers. The maps didn't show the Chislehurst curves from the SE main line to the Rochester line.

 

[30907]

Get hold of G S Moodies book "Southern Electric" (1979) - a rich source of detail on timetable material and you will be amazed at the level of fast Kent Coast service in the 1960's electrification - fast Cannon St to Whitstable for example on peak workings.

And then people started commuting en masse from intermediate towns and the non stop runs disappeared. The same happened between Tonbridge and Ashford too.

 

[frodshamfella]

I studied in Canterbury from 1970-71, and one of the joys was using the xx00 from Charing Cross, which paused at Waterloo East and then proceeded non-stop through London Bridge to Ashford in Kent.

Once clear of Tonbridge it would go like the wind along the then four-tracked section through Staplehurst to Ashford. It was scheduled into Ashford at x57, but often reached that place in 55 minutes from Charing Cross.

Yes I remember seeing that service which ran fast from Waterloo East to Ashford, I guess that doesn't exist now ? Also I remember the Hastings DMU from Charing Cross which I think was also generally fast from Waterloo East.

 

[frodshamfella]

I think the North Kent Gillingham used to be fast, Abbey Wood was added in 70s , then Blackheath. I also remember a few fast services from Addiscombe to London ..can't recall if was CX or CS..but was in evening peak and ran something like fast Elmers End to Catford Bridge, but not exactly sure.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes I remember seeing that service which ran fast from Waterloo East to Ashford, I guess that doesn't exist now ? Also I remember the Hastings DMU from Charing Cross which I think was also generally fast from Waterloo East.

I'm afraid not. Ashford - Tonbridge is now a rural backwater (although the various loops and through lines remain).

I seem to recall that by the late 80's/90's pretty much all the expresses on that route called at Tonbridge (and most at Paddock Wood).

 

[Taunton]

I think the North Kent Gillingham used to be fast, Abbey Wood was added in 70s , then Blackheath.

This service progressively picked up more stops. Pre-Kent Coast electrification of 1962 it was hourly as far as the conductor rails had been laid pre-WW2, to Gillingham, after London Bridge stopping only at Woolwich, Dartford and Gravesend before serving stations beyond. It could equally have run via either Greenwich or the Blackheath tunnel. This was the hourly service that was then extended right through to Ramsgate. It then picked up Erith, Lewisham, and as stated Abbey Wood (as Thamesmead developed) later.

 

[Bookd]

A replica Southern timetable from 1947 shows some peak trains from Reading which after Feltham were either Hounslow or Richmond only. This was quicker than today, but by bringing in more stops this must have created more paths for an increased frequency, as well as an improved service at the intermediate stations.

 

[30907]

A replica Southern timetable from 1947 shows some peak trains from Reading which after Feltham were either Hounslow or Richmond only. This was quicker than today, but by bringing in more stops this must have created more paths for an increased frequency, as well as an improved service at the intermediate stations.

Until 1967 virtually all Reading line services were nonstop from/to Staines, reverting to the original SR electrification timetable.

 

[Starmill]

I'm afraid not. Ashford - Tonbridge is now a rural backwater (although the various loops and through lines remain).

I seem to recall that by the late 80's/90's pretty much all the expresses on that route called at Tonbridge (and most at Paddock Wood).

There is a half-hourly service with through trains every hour to Ramsgate via Canterbury West and Dover Priory via Folkestone Central. The journey time is only 38 minutes between Tonbridge and Ashford International. There are more services between Paddock Wood and Tonbridge. There are a large number of additional services to Charing Cross or Cannon Street in the morning peak, and some from them in the evening peak.

Rural backwater indeed!

 

[yorksrob]

There is a half-hourly service with through trains every hour to Ramsgate via Canterbury West and Dover Priory via Folkestone Central. The journey time is only 38 minutes between Tonbridge and Ashford International. There are more services between Paddock Wood and Tonbridge. There are a large number of additional services to Charing Cross or Cannon Street in the morning peak, and some from them in the evening peak.

Rural backwater indeed!

Put that way you're correct.

But its nowt like the old main line glory days with express trains, international trains, semi fasts and stoppers. Especially now that the buffet trolley's gone

 

[MotCO]

In the late 1970's there was a morning service from Sevenoaks to Cannon Street that was non stop from Petts Wood to Cannon St
The 8EPB would often do over 80mph through Grove Park on the up slow line.

In the mid 1980's, there was also a train from Cannon Street to Orpington, stopping only at Petts Wood, timed, if I remember correctly at 17.24 and 17.42.

Today, there is a weekday 08.45 Orpington to Charing Cross, only calling at London Bridge and Waterloo East. When I used it, it was only a quarter full, if that, and it was a pleasure to travel in the rush hour.

 

[urpert]

There are a couple of up Catford Loop trains in the morning peak that miss out the stops between Catford and either Peckham Rye or Denmark Hill. They've caught me out before as otherwise everything stops everywhere (apart from the Victoria fasts, obviously).

 

[30907]

In the mid 1980's, there was also a train from Cannon Street to Orpington, stopping only at Petts Wood, timed, if I remember correctly at 17.24 and 17.42.

The remnants of the service mentikned in post #5

 

[30907]

There are a couple of up Catford Loop trains in the morning peak that miss out the stops between Catford and either Peckham Rye or Denmark Hill. They've caught me out before as otherwise everything stops everywhere (apart from the Victoria fasts, obviously).

Also the remnants of a more regular service pattern (0735, 0755, 0815 off Shortlands around 1980), followed by an all-stations service that started there (the turnback is now at Bromley South instead).

 

[Sad Sprinter]

It's interesting finding out the different pathings that once were. Especially on the South Eastern which for most of my life seemed like another universe to me until I used to have a short commute between London Bridge and Cannon Street when I was on work experience.

I'd be interested to hear what the 70s/80s timetable was like on the Central division. I imagine there never was much suburban fast services because of the numerous amount of fast trains stopping at Clapham Junction and East Croydon.

The decline of the South Eastern Mainline is part of my general gripes about high speed railways. They may be exciting, modern and interesting, but it's also sad that the historical railway it shadows often turns into a long rural or standard commuter line.

 

[30907]

Suburban fast services IIRC were
- the Tats and Cats (Tattenham Cnr/Caterham) which at the beginning were still fast London Br - Norwood Jn.
- peak hour only Victoria - Coulsdon N (later Smitham IIRC)
- peak hour only London Br - West Croydon and beyond (not sure these aren't a bit later chronologically)
- there may have been some via Hackbridge, running on the Fasts to Streatham Jn North, replacing the Mid Sussex trains that still ran that way in the early 70s. (ditto) The basic service on that route ran on the slows and called at Balham as well as Clapham Jn.

The pattern of main line services in the peaks was relatively irregular.

 

[Taunton]

Main line SR services have also lost their non stop runs, being replaced by services making a few intermediate stops at more frequent intervals - something also apparent beyond the old SR.

You can no longer go every hour nonstop from Victoria to Brighton, nor Waterloo to Southampton. This last has now picked up several intermediate stops and is notably slower.

The first stop added was Southampton Parkway. I took one from there in the late 1980s. Normally a REP+TC formation, I was dismayed to see nothing more than a single 4-VEP roll in. But what a run followed, less than 60 minutes nonstop to Waterloo, presumably driven flat out all the way - it certainly felt like it!

 

[satisnek]

In ye olden days there were non-stop services between Guildford and Waterloo. I see from the current SWT timetable that a few peak time services still do this, the fastest being the 1800 ex-Waterloo, taking 33 minutes. I don't know if it's possible to break the 30 minute barrier whilst keeping to speed limits, etc. but my Dad can remember doing this the best part of half a century ago.

In the mid-1980s there was a morning service from Alton which called at all stations to West Byfleet then non-stop to Waterloo.

And I've got an old VHS cab ride from Reading to Waterloo in NSE days which, intriguingly, runs non-stop between Ascot and Richmond.

 

[Busaholic]

Once a year there was a non-stop service originating at Catford Bridge on the Hayes line which went to Cannon Street; admittedly, it was not for the general public, so perhaps out of the scope of this thread, but I'll mention it as, for a few years in the early 1960s, I was on it. It was provided so that the pupils of a certain Catford school that had originated in the City of London in the nineteenth century could exercise their right to the Freedom of the City of London, and involved us marching from Cannon Street station along that street, then over London Bridge (road traffic having been stopped for the duration) to a service in Southwark Cathedral. I can't remember if we caught the same train back, or whether we had to make other arrangements. Thinking about it now is rather poignant for me in view of the barbarities visited upon those unfortunate enough to have been in the area last Saturday night.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

About 20 years ago when Epsom to Waterloo first went up from 2 to 4 trains per hour off peak, the extra 2 were non-stop from Epsom to Wimbledon. This only lasted about 5 years or so and all four trains per hour are now all stations.

There is still a half hourly off peak service which is fast between Sutton and Clapham Junction - the Victoria to Dorking and Horsham service - but there are nasty rumours that several additional stops are to be inserted in these next year.

 

[NorthKent1989]

On the SE and Central sectors there doesn't seem to be many semi fast trains anymore,
Just stopping or "fast" (The Chatham routes to Bromley can hardly be considered fast anymore) most of the stoppers to Charing Cross skipped St. John's and New Cross even before the mid 2010s London Bridge reorganisation.

I seem to recall that the Caterham and Tattenham Corner trains used to join and divide at Purley than called only at East Croydon, Norwood Junction, Sydenham, Forest Hill, New Cross Gate then into Charing Cross, but that Thameslink kinda put an end to it and now all trains on the Central side run non stop to either Norwood or Croydon.

I always knew that Abbey Wood was only added to the Woolwich semi fasts because of Thamesmead being built, but never knew that the service was London Bridge, then non stop to Woolwich then Dartford, I know Charlton was added in the mid 90s and Greenhithe around 2000, so this service is more of a skip stop than a semi fast service.

Are semi fast trains just too impractical to run these days?