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MEN article-"Northern Rail is crumbling from the inside out and things are only going to get worse"

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Djgr

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Article in today's Manchester Evening News

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...s/northern-rail-crumbling-inside-out-17434320

Once again, worrying stuff about an failing TOC with some interesting insider insights that I haven't seen discussed on here especially:

"Northern didn't pay for an an 'added extra' which would allow them to rescue each other when they break down.

"Instead only electric can rescue electric and diesel can only risk diesel, hugely reducing the capability to recover from failures.

"The people controlling the front line staff work with archaic systems, literally pencil and paper, no state of the art computer systems.

"These supervisors are dotted all over the country so if a train breaks down and the crew are stuck with it, about six different people need to speak with each other to organise replacement staff.
 
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Llama

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To be fair, pencil and paper works just fine for train crew supervisors - when the job goes to pot you need a simple system. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that that lets the job down.
 

Cherry_Picker

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The rolling stock criticism seems like a disgruntled employee whining too. Of course it's going to take a while to get train crew and maintenance staff up to speed, this has been the case with new trains forever, of course people aren't going to know the common faults and quick fixes immediately, and how important is it for EMUs and DMUs to be able to couple to eachother? Would it be criticised as a waste of money if it becomes a feature which is paid for and barely (if ever) used?

I'm sure there are problems at Northern, I'm not someone who uses them a lot but teething problems with new trains is a temporary problem.
 

Intermodal

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Not a particularly surprising article. I'm certain if you asked any Northern guard on a train in service what they thought they would tell you very similar information. An interesting attempt to jump on the bandwagon by MEN and I'm sure they've got a few views, but ultimately it is just someone's opinion (that I do not necessarily disagree with).

I am surprised a member of staff has chosen to speak to the media in this way, they would be in big trouble if someone found out who they are.
 

156420

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To be fair, pencil and paper works just fine for train crew supervisors - when the job goes to pot you need a simple system. In the grand scheme of things, it's not that that lets the job down.

That’s exactly what I do, when we have disruption, we have a simplifier and I make a simplifier of the simplifier :lol: and write all the services involved with a list of the traincrew relief and the traincrews next work.

It has yet to cause me any problems.
 

Bantamzen

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You know take away any reference to trains, and this could be a generic complaint about many places, especially where the public sector is concerned! That's not to say that there aren't problems at Northern, especially in the North West, but this is really not exactly groundbreaking news. However given it's timing, just after a large Tory win in the General Election, it will be perfectly timed for a certain mayor to kickstart his PR team again. Over to you Mr Burnham.....
 

CaptainHaddock

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You know take away any reference to trains, and this could be a generic complaint about many places, especially where the public sector is concerned! That's not to say that there aren't problems at Northern, especially in the North West, but this is really not exactly groundbreaking news. However given it's timing, just after a large Tory win in the General Election, it will be perfectly timed for a certain mayor to kickstart his PR team again. Over to you Mr Burnham.....

I think the timing is more to do with the fact that the new timetable has just come into force and it hasn't improved Northern's performance.

For months Northern have been saying that once they get their new trains into service and the new timetable is up and running then many of the long term complaints about their poor service will be resolved. Yet, if anything, the combination of unreliable new trains and a lack of drivers has made the problem worse.

Let's not defend the indefensible. Just because we're (mostly) pro-rail on this forum doesn't mean we should turn a blind eye to justified criticism of the railways.
 
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Bantamzen

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I think the timing is more to do with the fact that the new timetable has just come into force and it hasn't improved Northern's performance.

For months Northern have been saying that once they get their new trains into service and the new timetable is up and running then many of the long term complaints about their poor service will be resolved. Yet, if anything, the combination of unreliable new trains and a lack of drivers has made the problem worse.

Let's not defend the indefensible. Just because we're (mostly_ pro-rail on this forum doesn;t mean we should turn a blind eye to justified criticism of the railways.

My point is that this article brings nothing new to the table, just another piece of lazy local newspaper cliché copy & paste with some anonymous criticism from a seemingly disgruntled employee. Nobody is trying to defend Northern, we know they have problems, but then so do quite a few TOCs which leads one to believe that there is something fundamentally flawed with the whole network. Now the reason behind that is what local and national hacks should be going after, but it involves a bit more than Ctrl+C & Ctrl+V….
 

tbtc

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(The below quotes are not intended as direct criticism of @Djgr - I'm just quoting your OP - not saying that you necessarily agree with everything in the article!)

"Northern didn't pay for an an 'added extra' which would allow them to rescue each other when they break down.

"Instead only electric can rescue electric and diesel can only risk diesel, hugely reducing the capability to recover from failures.

I guess the problem here is cost/benefit analysis. It seems odd to order two fleets from the same manufacturer and not have them capable of working together but how often would this actually be necessary to justify the cost? For example, the Bombardier-built Voyagers had Alstom software so that they could couple to Pendolini but how often was that actually used? It's a useful functionality to have, certainly, but how many failures would there have to be to make the costs worthwhile?

For example, some people on here say that they don't want 222s going to XC because a failed Meridian couldn't be rescued by a Voyager (though XC already run three types of train on the Derby - Cheltenham corridor without anyone worrying about HSTs rescuing Turbostars!).

Ideally, I'd have liked the 195s and 331s be able to work in multiple, with the scope for the diesel unit to continue beyond the wires (as per the old Southern Region's 33s to Weymouth), but that's just me and my crayons talking.

"The people controlling the front line staff work with archaic systems, literally pencil and paper, no state of the art computer systems.

As others have said, old school technology can sometimes work pretty well - you're not worrying about phone coverage/ networks going down/ power cuts etc - there's sometimes something to be said for something cheap that requires minimal staff training (rather than installing complex technology when all you require is someone to write down how often something is happening)

"These supervisors are dotted all over the country so if a train breaks down and the crew are stuck with it, about six different people need to speak with each other to organise replacement staff.

What alternative is there? The Northern network sees lots of rural lines with trains only every hour or worse - so if there's a breakdown in some far flung place, it's probably going to be far from a supervisor - having your supervisors "dotted all over the country" may not be a bad thing if the alternative is that they are all in the same Manchester office, far from the scene of disruption.

Let's not defend the indefensible. Just because we're (mostly_ pro-rail on this forum doesn;t mean we should turn a blind eye to justified criticism of the railways.

Agreed - I've no problem with constructive criticism of the railway - it's amusing to see (on threads where people are dismissing suggestions for some Beeching-era re-opening) people take umbrage at people trying to pour realism on the optimistic proposal along the lines of "I thought this was meant to be a *pro* railway Forum" << it is pro railway but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad examples (which can easily tarnish the whole industry)
 

Moonshot

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Just to correct a piece of misinformation here.....there is a capability for 195s to rescue 331s and vice versa.....that does exist as I found out the other day from a fitter. No idea of the techy bit for that but it does exist apparently.
 

LowLevel

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Localised train crew supervisors have their advantages. I know ours and they know me. Entirely unofficially they can drop me a facebook message if they're stuck without tying up their time using the phone.
 

Bantamzen

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Agreed - I've no problem with constructive criticism of the railway - it's amusing to see (on threads where people are dismissing suggestions for some Beeching-era re-opening) people take umbrage at people trying to pour realism on the optimistic proposal along the lines of "I thought this was meant to be a *pro* railway Forum" << it is pro railway but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad examples (which can easily tarnish the whole industry)

The problem with articles like the MEN one are that whilst they do call out bad examples, no-one involved with it seems to want or be willing to dive into the reasons why these things are going wrong. Its one thing for a group of fed up passengers stood on the end of a platform holding some banners slagging off Northern, but the press need to go further, as indeed do politicians. If these problems were totally isolated to Northern, then yes the crux of the problem would almost certainly lie there. But issues with timetable meltdowns, crew shortages, problems with new / cascaded stock, seats et al repeat ad nauseum right across the country. So by now it should become obvious, even to a local newspaper just trying to generate some click-bait based revenue, that the problem lies much deeper.

We are never going to solve the problems on our network until the public become aware of the real depth of the problem. The media & politicians should be getting their teeth into this now, especially when the new government is preparing a new Department for Unicorns & Rainbows, and promising to shake the Magic Money Tree. Instead they are just being echo chambers, and achieving exactly nothing.

Just to correct a piece of misinformation here.....there is a capability for 195s to rescue 331s and vice versa.....that does exist as I found out the other day from a fitter. No idea of the techy bit for that but it does exist apparently.

It definitely doesn't help any cause when an article is so easily debunked!
 

Llama

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195s can couple, mechanically only, to 331s and vice versa. Therefore there would be no brake continuity and any movement of the train would be at 5mph to clear the main line.

At the most basic level, just the fact that 195s have the normal DMU control system voltage of 24vDC - whereas 331s have the usual EMU control voltage of 110vDC - means that any attempt to couple a 195 to a 331 without first isolating the coupler electrical connection boxes would kill the 195, and there's no simple 'added extra' that can get around that.
 

Chris M

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At the most basic level, just the fact that 195s have the normal DMU control system voltage of 24vDC - whereas 331s have the usual EMU control voltage of 110vDC - means that any attempt to couple a 195 to a 331 without first isolating the coupler electrical connection boxes would kill the 195, and there's no simple 'added extra' that can get around that.
If it is just a difference in voltage, then a box sitting between the electrical connection boxes to do step-down/step-up would I think be a fairly simple "added extra" electrically speaking - whether it would fit mechanically I have no idea though.
 

Exiled Lanc

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Just to correct a piece of misinformation here.....there is a capability for 195s to rescue 331s and vice versa.....that does exist as I found out the other day from a fitter. No idea of the techy bit for that but it does exist apparently.
There are also three sets of terms and conditions within Northern, rather than two, because of the ex - TPE train crew at Barrow-in-Furness and Blackpool North.
 

Llama

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If it is just a difference in voltage, then a box sitting between the electrical connection boxes to do step-down/step-up would I think be a fairly simple "added extra" electrically speaking - whether it would fit mechanically I have no idea though.
There's a bit more to it than that, certain electrical connections will be used on one of the types of unit that either aren't used at all on the other unit or might be used for something completely different.
 

Raul_Duke

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For example, some people on here say that they don't want 222s going to XC because a failed Meridian couldn't be rescued by a Voyager (though XC already run three types of train on the Derby - Cheltenham corridor without anyone worrying about HSTs rescuing Turbostars!).

Just as a point of order, Meridians and Voyagers can couple up and rescue each other, they have had air system modifications to do so.

What they can’t do is run in multiple.
 

45107

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I guess the problem here is cost/benefit analysis. It seems odd to order two fleets from the same manufacturer and not have them capable of working together but how often would this actually be necessary to justify the cost? For example, the Bombardier-built Voyagers had Alstom software so that they could couple to Pendolini but how often was that actually used? It's a useful functionality to have, certainly, but how many failures would there have to be to make the costs worthwhile?

You do realise that back in the bad old days of BR, every loco or unit could couple and be used to rescue in the event of a failure.

It would hazard a guess that having a compatible coupler with the rest of the ‘UK Rail World’ would be cost effective as it would reduce overall delays and disruption.
A train fails and the nearest one with a compatible coupler is 3rd in queue of trains behind. Perfect for the bean counters wanting compensation but useless for the passengers and the frontline staff who want to solve problems.
But I suppose that means Bombardier, Alsthom, CAF, Siemens etc talking to each other to the benefit of the UK public rather than themselves and the leasing companies/TOCs
Never going to happen.
 

Dr Hoo

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Hmm. Clearly written by someone who never had to deal with a VEP-508-455 sandwich on the South Western Division, let alone vacuum braked freights amidst electro-pneumatic braked passenger trains.
 

Moonshot

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I have every sympathy with our control staff when things do go pearshaped .... especially with more trains running. The network resilience is right at the envelope edge....never ceases to amaze me just how quickly the ripple effect of a train breaking down spreads out. On the subject of coupling, there is an emergency coupling adapter ( apparently) which means something like a 142 could rescue a 195 etc....but it needs a man in van to fit it.
 

3270

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Current punctuality figure for today (On Time or less than 10 minutes late) is 90.7%, full cancellations 4.0%. The same punctuality metric was also around 90% on Monday and Tuesday this week. Hardly seems like a meltdown although they obviously need to be better resourced (staff and units) and to sort out the Sunday issue.
 

Djgr

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Current punctuality figure for today (On Time or less than 10 minutes late) is 90.7%, full cancellations 4.0%. The same punctuality metric was also around 90% on Monday and Tuesday this week. Hardly seems like a meltdown although they obviously need to be better resourced (staff and units) and to sort out the Sunday issue.

Is the source for this publicly accessible?
 

Llama

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On the subject of coupling, there is an emergency coupling adapter ( apparently) which means something like a 142 could rescue a 195 etc....but it needs a man in van to fit it.
There is indeed, these are nothing new, they've always been around for the legacy fleet. All the assisting unit needs to do is provide a main res air feed to the failed set to release the parking brakes (via the emergency air coupling pipes), isolate the brakes on the failed unit and then drag it away at 5mph with a competent person sat ready to apply the parking brake in the leading cab of the failed set if the consist divided.

What gets interesting with the CAF units is that they can be assisted by a loco with an adaptor coupling so long as the unit has a battery supply still available and the brakes on the unit can be worked via the loco brake pipe as air braked stock without the drastic reduction in speed, so in that respect they are actually quite well designed.

If a loco was to assist say a 150 with the appropriate adaptor coupling this wouldn't be possible and it would again be isolate brakes, 5mph to clear the line, comp person on the parking brake.
 

Sleeperwaking

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Yes - http://trains.im/ppm/ Seems to suggest 68% though...
I think the public link will be measuring trains up to 5 mins late as green for Northern (IIRC, 10 mins applies to long distance / intercity services). If the privately quoted figures are for up to 10 mins late, then they won't match the public ones. The public link does show that punctuality has been about the same for Monday / Tuesday / today - it took a dip Fri / Sat / Sun, but that could have been related to moving trains around prior to start of the new timetable.
 

3270

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Yes - http://trains.im/ppm/ Seems to suggest 68% though...
Yes I noticed that, I don't know how those figures are calculated though. The figure I quoted was trains on time or less than 10 minutes late at destination. Some shorter distance Northern trains are no doubt judged to be on time if they are < 5 mins late rather than the 10 minutes that I used so that will explain some of the difference. Even so I think trains.im is being a bit pessimistic.
 
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