merging services?

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by TheWalrus, 23 Oct 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,432
    Joined:
    6 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Exeter
    Recently ive had an idea to merge services into longer through services in order to improve efficiency and promote through services. Some ideas ive had so far are:
    - manchester-barrow and barrow-carlisle
    - glasgow-carlisle carlisle-newcastle and taking the newcastle-middlesborough part of the middlesborough-hexham service

    Do you think this would be a good idea? Is there any others I havent thought of yet?
     
  2. Registered users do not see these banners - join or log in today!

    Rail Forums

     
  3. 142094

    142094 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,780
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Newcastle
    There are probably '000s of different services that could be theoretically merged, but would require co-operation by TOCs. One of the main reasons why it may not be possible is that the unit that works these services often has a short turnaround time and goes back in the opposite direction rather quickly.

    I can't see too much benefit of adding the GLC - NCL service onto a HEX - MBR service, and I bet that flow isn't great either. I'd assume that most people who travel between Glasgow and Middlesbrough would want to go via Edinburgh due to the fact it would be a 156 throughout if going via Carlisle. There is also the fact that for a journey that long, there are no catering facilities.
     
  4. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,432
    Joined:
    6 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Exeter
    They probably wouldnt do it end to end but there may be more intermediate journey opportunities.
     
  5. 142094

    142094 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,780
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2009
    Location:
    Newcastle
    Has to be a balance between what could be merged and whether there is a demand for it. At the minute there is direct service from Carlisle to Middlesbrough, although only once per day.
     
  6. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,885
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    One problem (ignoring TOC boundaries and the complications of running longer distance) is that of train size.

    Manchester - Bolton - Preston could be a four coach EMU in a few years time, given the demand between those places, but the Cumbrian Coast has a number of single coach workings (153s).

    So, to run a 185 from Manchester to Carlisle would mean a unit which is too short for the first part of the journey, but too long for the second part.

    (sorry, don't mean to be critical, as there are some services which I'm sure could work as combined ones, but you'd need to find a balance in terms of length of train)
     
  7. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,432
    Joined:
    6 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Exeter
    I was thinking attatch/detaching but then if part of the route is electric and part diesel this would create the largest barrier.
     
  8. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,106
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    I was thinking about this the other day, trying to reduce the number of services terminating at Birmingham New Street. It's difficult, as I didn't want to replace an EMU with a DMU on any route.

    The only ones I could come up with, without reassigning the TOCs, were London–Birmingham–Edinburgh/Glasgow (kind of obvious, and they do that a couple times a day already), and joining the 1tph Inter stopper to the newly-truncated 1tph Walsall via Soho service and running it using a 323.
     
  9. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,885
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Hereford - Nottingham would free up a fair bit of space, given the time that the Hereford - Birmingham and Nottingham - Birmingham services both wait at New Street (assuming no interworking with other services).

    Both 170 run too, but with different TOCs.

    What works the Walsall - New Street service at the other half hour to the Rugeley service? It used to extend to Rugeley, so is that duty still a 170, or has it been made a 323 duty?
     
  10. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,106
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    If we're allowed to change TOCs, then in addition to Hereford–Nottingham might it be possible to have Shrewsbury–Leicester?

    Also, forgot to mention, tagging the one of the two Liverpools onto one of the two 350-operated Coventry or Northamptons (or Eustons, as they now seem to be) seems plausible.

    Heh, I think I've pretty much eliminated all services terminating from the west there...
     
  11. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,432
    Joined:
    6 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Exeter
    Oh yeah, excellent ideas! :D
     
  12. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,506
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Still a 170, as I think the diagrams are shared, so that units that go all the way through to Rugeley also work some of the services that now terminate short at Walsall.
     
  13. dmacw

    dmacw Member

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    4 Jul 2009
    I've often thought the Reading to Gatwick services could start back at Oxford. Maybe more after Reading has been remodelled. Where though? Oxford would result in losing a slow/fast to Paddington. Can't imagine the demand from Basingstoke or Newbury.
     
  14. Paul Sidorczuk

    Paul Sidorczuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    24,608
    Joined:
    17 Apr 2011
    Location:
    The most select part of rural Cheshire East.
    This would be good news for Manchester visitors to the Ravenglass and Eskdale Railway.....No changes required.

    How about Manchester to Doncaster(TPE) and Doncaster to Kings Cross?
     
    Last edited: 23 Oct 2011
  15. TheWalrus

    TheWalrus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,432
    Joined:
    6 Oct 2008
    Location:
    Exeter
    Dont think oxford would work. I think after reading remodelling and electrification merge a reading - padd stopper with a reading-newbury and the best idea would probably be to merge basingstokes with gatwicks, as maybe people would do basingstoke-wokingham etc?
     
  16. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,885
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    Cheers - one of those "wondered for a while, but never got round to asking" things
     
  17. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    8,512
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    The sooner TOCs and the Dft see New St as a through station the better, it isn't a terminal and isn't designed to be....
     
  18. Chapeltom

    Chapeltom Established Member

    Messages:
    1,314
    Joined:
    23 Feb 2010
    Location:
    Tainan, Taiwan.
    On my local line trains run:

    Buxton to Manchester Piccadilly but run at least one service a day to: Barrow in Furness (1) Blackpool North, Bolton (1), Clitheroe (1), Preston (think its a Saturday run) and Wigan North Western (1). Why not make it go elsewhere?

    It would be interesting to make an hourly Buxton to Liverpool Lime Street stopper with a lay-over if necessary at Manchester Oxford Road (or setting off from BUX at :42 past the hour)... bear in mind they leave at :44 past the hour coming of MCO anyway, a 13 min wait at MCO platform 1 could be done.

    Of course, the :14 train out of MCO to LIV can be retained.

    Mad idea but I'm selfish and if they had a Chapel en le Frith to Mossley Hill direct service, ok it would be 2hrs long but beats squeezing on an EMT... :lol:
     
  19. Robinson

    Robinson Member

    Messages:
    623
    Joined:
    1 Aug 2010
    Location:
    Helensburgh
    A while back in this thread I know, but I didn't realise Manchester-Preston via Bolton was set to be electrified...
     
  20. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

    Messages:
    9,506
    Joined:
    4 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Macclesfield
    Yes, it's quite a key part of the North West electrification programme.
     
  21. dvboy

    dvboy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,835
    Joined:
    6 Sep 2011
    Location:
    Birmingham
    Or Shrewsbury-Grimsby like Central Trains used to do (three seperate TOCs now and the only Birmingham-Leicester trains now go on to Stansted Airport).
     
  22. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

    Messages:
    14,885
    Joined:
    16 Dec 2008
    Location:
    Sheffield
    As sprinterguy says its part of a programme of electrification in the "Lancashire Triangle"

    • Manchester - Bolton - Chorley - Preston
    • Preston - Blackpool North
    • Liverpool - St Helens - Wigan
    • Liverpool - Chat Moss - Manchester

    This is what has been agreed so far - there's then scope for further "fill ins" (Bolton - Wigan - Southport being an obvious one), but thats just me speculating.
     
  23. Eagle

    Eagle Established Member

    Messages:
    7,106
    Joined:
    20 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Leamingrad / Blanfrancisco
    Actually only half do. (The other half, in CT days, went up the MML to Nottingham and then to one of the Lincolnshire lines; I forget which.)
     
  24. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

    Messages:
    11,754
    Joined:
    13 May 2008
    Whilst a through service is theoretically more efficient, it is more vulnerable to a minor incident becoming a major delay. Take it too far, and you get the Liverpool-Norwich EMT service...
     
  25. MCR247

    MCR247 Established Member

    Messages:
    9,067
    Joined:
    7 Nov 2008
    Just to Lincoln Central :)
     
  26. Essexman

    Essexman Member

    Messages:
    866
    Joined:
    15 Mar 2011
    Hereford to Nottingham has been much more reliable since the service was split into two parts Hereford - Birmingham & Birmingham - Nottingham. Delays at New Street had knock of effect which were compounded by single west of Great Malvern.
     
  27. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,610
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    The Gatwick - Oxford trains used to run, I think some even started from Banbury! However, frequencies (especially InterCity) were lower back then and so less crossing moves. Reading is packed now!

    Now that they are upgrading the diveunder from the Wokingham lines to the northern lines, I think these would be possible with less of a conflict.

    However I think those platforms at the very top are pretty much meant for Crossrail. I'm not sure if the diveunders would access the next island down - presumably for slow trains continuing west.

    I also wouldn't be too surprised if Reading - Basingstoke was electrified. That shuttle is 2tph and about 30 mins, so maybe 3 units saved? It'd mean EMUs from Paddington or even Crossrail could be merged in to run to Basingstoke - as well as dual voltage stock being able to run under wires from Oxford to Basingstoke.
     
  28. starlightEXPRESS

    starlightEXPRESS Member

    Messages:
    143
    Joined:
    18 Apr 2009
    Location:
    South East
    I think Gatwick - Oxford direct trains only happened after 8pm at night? I remember being on one on a Sunday night six or so years ago.

    The problem with the North Downs Line is that it interfaces with so many other routes (including the Portsmouth Direct Line and Brighton Main Line). None of the junctions are grade separated, so problems on one part of the network can easily spread.

    If the services from Gatwick were extended to Oxford from Reading, you could potentially have a scenario in which a delay on the Brighton Main Line, delayed the westbound departure from Reading, which in turn held up an XC service towards Birmingham. (I think the XC voyagers are pathed along the GWML relief line and overtake stopping turbos at Didcot.)

    I think it's probably best for operational reasons not to extend the NDL services to Didcot and Oxford.
     
  29. cuccir

    cuccir Established Member

    Messages:
    2,983
    Joined:
    18 Nov 2009
    My parents live in Barrow and I grew up there, so travel there by train 4/5 times a year. No point in merging these two in particular, either for operational or passenger reasons.

    However, I'd like to see the Barrow-Lancaster Northern services and the Morecambe-Leeds merged to run Barrow-Leeds, with increased frequency between Lancaster and Leeds. Journey time between Barrow and Leeds would be 3 hours, and I reckon you could achieve 5 journeys a day in each direction across the whole route. I'd leave the current trains which run beyond Barrow untouched,

    It would provide Barrow and South Cumbria with connections to the ECML and Yorkshire, taking people off the already-congested transpennine routes further south. It would recreate previous connections and could probably be achieved with current units.

    Lancaster-Morecambe/Heysham would become an entirely self-contained shuttle, with perhaps some extra through services at weekend and in summer. This means that journeys could be retimed along this line to connect better with services at Lancaster, easing logistics and improving reliability.
     
  30. route:oxford

    route:oxford On Moderation

    Messages:
    4,644
    Joined:
    1 Nov 2008
    Once the Reading remodelling is complete, the next major bottleneck in the network will be Oxford. With just 2 through-platforms, it's already a bit of a problem. There is also the issue with the two-track section between Oxford & Didcot.

    The ideal solution would be 4 through-platforms and 2 through tracks for Oxford.

    Perhaps also building loops at Culham station to allow freight or "stoppers" to clear the mainline.

    As to extending services.

    I'd love to see some of the Birmingham-Edinburgh services extended to Perth.
     
  31. Buttsy

    Buttsy Established Member

    Messages:
    1,364
    Joined:
    20 May 2011
    Location:
    Oxford
    As I travel this route every working day, I have had similar thoughts and based on the land currently available south of Oxford station, I would say that it would be possible to fit 4 tracks in from Oxford to the Thames crossing south of Radley (Abingdon Junction) with only 4 bridges needing alteration. A new single track eck over the Thames just south of Oxford, Tandem pub footbridge at Kennington, Sandford Lane bridge, Kennington and Lower Radley road bridge.

    I can't quite see yet how you'd fit an extra platform on the down side without knocking down the recently built youth hostel and adding another deck over Botley Road so you could have 2 up and 2 down platforms.

    As for extensions, I'd like to see the Melksham services extended to Oxford and merged with the Banbury stoppers.
     
    Last edited: 24 Oct 2011
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page