Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[jamieintercity]

Spotted 777008 at sandhills this evening at 1845, on its mileage accumulation run to southport

 

[SolomonSouth]

Spotted 777008 at sandhills this evening at 1845, on its mileage accumulation run to southport

Looks like they are making some progress then.

 

[MR-507508]

How many class 777 units have completed manufacture?
I heard they had put a halt on production due to the delay with their introduction and Covid, is this still the case or has production now resumed?
How many are stored outside of the U.K.?

 

[Ribbleman]

I think that someone posted a few weeks go that unit 041 had been seen amongst others outside the Siedlce plant in Poland. If it was complete and production of the even numbered units in Switzerland has been proceeding at the same pace, then Stadler may by now have almost finished the 53 sets.

 

[507020]

I think that someone posted a few weeks go that unit 041 had been seen amongst others outside the Siedlce plant in Poland. If it was complete and production of the even numbered units in Switzerland has been proceeding at the same pace, then Stadler may by now have almost finished the 53 sets.

Could they have switched to manufacturing the Tyne and Wear units instead now?

 

[Skie]

Could they have switched to manufacturing the Tyne and Wear units instead now?

Despite looking similar in the early marketing bunf, those are vastly different designs so it’s unlikely. Production is only due to start in August with the first train in service by 2023.

 

[507020]

Despite looking similar in the early marketing bunf, those are vastly different designs so it’s unlikely. Production is only due to start in August with the first train in service by 2023.

But surely they’re not so different that they need to be built at completely separate factories?! It is August now and Stadler only have so many manufacturing facilities.

 

[Skie]

But surely they’re not so different that they need to be built at completely separate factories?! It is August now and Stadler only have so many manufacturing facilities.

The start of production usually just means tooling up early on. The first bodyshell will probably be months away.

I get what you mean though (it’s not really “instead”) and yes, it’s probably the same factories. If the 53 777’s are done or almost done they're most likely rolling onto the Metro units. I suspect they aren’t quite done yet though, as the order for the last 777’s to be battery units was fairly recent and I doubt Stadler can turn that aspect around so quickly from a trial battery design.

Following on from this, there’s a fair few sitting idle on the continent in this video: https://twitter.com/andybtravels/status/1427298208842199045?s=21

Wonder if they’ll couple them all together and run them round Wildenrwth to get their 500 miles FFR done in one go?

 

[507020]

The start of production usually just means tooling up early on. The first bodyshell will probably be months away.

I get what you mean though (it’s not really “instead”) and yes, it’s probably the same factories. If the 53 777’s are done or almost done they're most likely rolling onto the Metro units. I suspect they aren’t quite done yet though, as the order for the last 777’s to be battery units was fairly recent and I doubt Stadler can turn that aspect around so quickly from a trial battery design.

Following on from this, there’s a fair few sitting idle on the continent in this video: https://twitter.com/andybtravels/status/1427298208842199045?s=21

Wonder if they’ll couple them all together and run them round Wildenrwth to get their 500 miles FFR done in one go?

Notice that in that video the first and last units visible at each end of the siding have full yellow cab doors, which don’t match the rest of the fleet.

How long will they keep the tooling for? If either Merseyrail or T&W orders more units will they not need to reopen the production lines for them, as Bombardier have many times for M5000s.

Which units will be the battery ones? Will they be the last 7 numbered 777047-053 or is there another way of allocating them. If Headbolt Lane station is completed before the first 777s enter service, the batteries will be needed immediately on the first units to enter service on the Kirkby line, so it would make more sense for batteries to be fitted to 7 completed units at Kirkdale.

 

[Steelwheels]

Notice that in that video the first and last units visible at each end of the siding have full yellow cab doors, which don’t match the rest of the fleet.

How long will they keep the tooling for? If either Merseyrail or T&W orders more units will they not need to reopen the production lines for them, as Bombardier have many times for M5000s.

Which units will be the battery ones? Will they be the last 7 numbered 777047-053 or is there another way of allocating them. If Headbolt Lane station is completed before the first 777s enter service, the batteries will be needed immediately on the first units to enter service on the Kirkby line, so it would make more sense for batteries to be fitted to 7 completed units at Kirkdale.

The batteries can be fitted to any of the 53 units, so in effect any of the units can carry batteries.

An exercise to remove batteries from a 777 and refit them has already been conducted at Kirkdale depot.

Headbolt Lane is scheduled to open in 2023, so I would imagine things hopefully will have moved on by then.

 

[Geeves]

Despite looking similar in the early marketing bunf, those are vastly different designs so it’s unlikely. Production is only due to start in August with the first train in service by 2023.

The Stadler mantra is modular designs and both the Merseyrail trains, Minsk Metro, and the future Tyne and Wear Metro come under the generic term "Underground train" on the website so I am assuming there isn't much difference besides lengh and current collection. It does state the modules can be customised to what ever the customer requires but underneath its presumably the same train.

 

[Skie]

The Stadler mantra is modular designs and both the Merseyrail trains, Minsk Metro, and the future Tyne and Wear Metro come under the generic term "Underground train" on the website so I am assuming there isn't much difference besides lengh and current collection. It does state the modules can be customised to what ever the customer requires but underneath its presumably the same train.

There are a lot of differences, even the bogies are a different design. Stadler’s strength is that they can build trains from a huge mix of different parts rather than force a one size fits all body shell on you and you just choose which ironing board cover to use.

 

[Class83]

The batteries can be fitted to any of the 53 units, so in effect any of the units can carry batteries.

An exercise to remove batteries from a 777 and refit them has already been conducted at Kirkdale depot.

Headbolt Lane is scheduled to open in 2023, so I would imagine things hopefully will have moved on by then.

Though the 53 units will be needed to run current timetables, additional services beyond the current electrified would probably require additional units, unless there are turnarounds which can be trimmed, but I doubt that will cover all the services planned.

 

[MR-507508]

Notice that in that video the first and last units visible at each end of the siding have full yellow cab doors, which don’t match the rest of the fleet.

How long will they keep the tooling for? If either Merseyrail or T&W orders more units will they not need to reopen the production lines for them, as Bombardier have many times for M5000s.

Which units will be the battery ones? Will they be the last 7 numbered 777047-053 or is there another way of allocating them. If Headbolt Lane station is completed before the first 777s enter service, the batteries will be needed immediately on the first units to enter service on the Kirkby line, so it would make more sense for batteries to be fitted to 7 completed units at Kirkdale.

Good spotting regarding the cab doors, any idea why these are different compared to others in the fleet?

 

[507020]

There are a lot of differences, even the bogies are a different design. Stadler’s strength is that they can build trains from a huge mix of different parts rather than force a one size fits all body shell on you and you just choose which ironing board cover to use.

From the data sheets, it is possible to see that even the wheel diameter and bogie wheelbase is slightly different. Given that Merseyrail required a short wheelbase in an attempt to alleviate wheel wear which occurs when running the 507/508s on the Wirral Loop Line (because of course there was absolutely no cooperation between the teams who designed the trains and the tunnel in the 1970s), I am sure the T&W Metro could have coped perfectly well with exactly the same bogie design, or even exactly the same train, as Merseyrail. It is just testament to Stadler’s attention to detail that they can make the perfect train for the job, even if it means the wheel diameter has to be 20mm smaller, which no one will ever notice. Their ironing board covers definitely aren’t the worst I’ve seen either. I think they’ll last.

Though the 53 units will be needed to run current timetables, additional services beyond the current electrified would probably require additional units, unless there are turnarounds which can be trimmed, but I doubt that will cover all the services planned.

They couldn’t even manage the short extension to Headbolt Lane with the 52 units originally ordered, which is where 777053 came from. Any lines the length of Bidston - Wrexham, potentially being extended under the Mersey, even at only 1tph will require at least a few more units. I wouldn’t be surprised if they order more in a few years to lengthen more services to 8 cars even if they don’t run to any more destinations.

Good spotting regarding the cab doors, any idea why these are different compared to others in the fleet?

I believe the 777s are painted, not vinyl, so my guess is that it’s some sort of oversight. During the peak of the pandemic, they couldn’t have as many people painting doors yellow and black, so they were completed all yellow to be done later? If they ever run with the non-matching doors, it won’t be forever. This definitely won’t be the only livery they carry in the next 40 years.

 

[supervc-10]

a one size fits all body shell on you and you just choose which ironing board cover to use.

This is hilarious!

The idea of modular adjustability is a great one. VW Group are champions of it- their MQB platform is completely modular and is under everything from the huge Skoda Kodiaq to a little Audi TT. Means you can build something for every little niche in the market and do so profitably, whereas adjusting, for example, the Aventra platform to fit round the Merseyrail network would be an expensive challenge.

 

[507020]

This is hilarious!

The idea of modular adjustability is a great one. VW Group are champions of it- their MQB platform is completely modular and is under everything from the huge Skoda Kodiaq to a little Audi TT. Means you can build something for every little niche in the market and do so profitably, whereas adjusting, for example, the Aventra platform to fit round the Merseyrail network would be an expensive challenge.

Wasn’t Bombardier’s unsuccessful bid just an Aventra with a yellow ironing board cover…

 

[Mikey C]

Wasn’t Bombardier’s unsuccessful bid just an Aventra with a yellow ironing board cover…

I'm a little bit disappointed that a variant of the Underground S stock hasn't been adopted in either Merseyside or T&W, as it's a cracking train

 

[507020]

I'm a little bit disappointed that a variant of the Underground S stock hasn't been adopted in either Merseyside or T&W, as it's a cracking train

S stock would have been more suitable than an Aventra, but does TfL not have some rule that it’s not allowed to be built for anywhere else like it does with the buses? Wait until you see what Stadler have built for Merseyrail and the T&W Metro.

 

[dm1]

I'm a little bit disappointed that a variant of the Underground S stock hasn't been adopted in either Merseyside or T&W, as it's a cracking train

If you think the S stock is cracking, you ain't seen nothing yet!

 

[Grumpy Git]

I had a tip-off when the bids were made.......... Bombardier were way to expensive.

 

[Kite159]

I had a tip-off when the bids were made.......... Bombardier were way to expensive.

And even if they had won, Merseyrail will probably still be waiting for the first train to arrive from Derby now

 

[Mikey C]

S stock would have been more suitable than an Aventra, but does TfL not have some rule that it’s not allowed to be built for anywhere else like it does with the buses? Wait until you see what Stadler have built for Merseyrail and the T&W Metro.

I wouldn't have thought that applied to trains, especially when the S stock is a variant of the Movia platform anyway

I'm sure the Stadler stock is very good, but the S stock is a really good design, so it's a shame that it seems destined to be a one off, with Bombardier not wiling to adapt it for other UK applications (or uncompetitive on price)

 

[Bletchleyite]

S stock would have been more suitable than an Aventra, but does TfL not have some rule that it’s not allowed to be built for anywhere else like it does with the buses? Wait until you see what Stadler have built for Merseyrail and the T&W Metro.

There is very little difference between a 3 doored 20m Aventra and S-stock, really. But level boarding is a killer app and I'm glad they have gone for that.

 

[Energy]

And even if they had won, Merseyrail will probably still be waiting for the first train to arrive from Derby now

The class 730s have only had a couple units while the 701s are having problems. Not going for Bombardier was a good idea.

 

[ScottGallagher]

With all the factories being built in the UK is it likely that the 777 and Welsh order will be the last Stadler trains built for the UK mainline, i guess politically its unlikely they would get a sniff at SE metro for example.

 

[507020]

With all the factories being built in the UK is it likely that the 777 and Welsh order will be the last Stadler trains built for the UK mainline, i guess politically its unlikely they would get a sniff at SE metro for example.

Definitely not because they aren’t ordered based on where the factories are. People in Newcastle wanted the Tyne and Wear Metro to order new trains from Hitachi so they could be built locally at Newton Aycliffe, but they went with Stadler. Wales placed 2 orders with Stadler despite CAF having a factory in Newport. It’s more likely that Stadler will want to open a factory somewhere in Britain than pull out entirely.

 

[Goldfish62]

S stock would have been more suitable than an Aventra, but does TfL not have some rule that it’s not allowed to be built for anywhere else like it does with the buses? Wait until you see what Stadler have built for Merseyrail and the T&W Metro.

S Stock is merely a version of Bombardier's Movia metro stock used in many countries.

TfL don't have any such rule for buses, unless you're thinking of the Borismasters, which thankfully are no longer available.

 

[hacman]

Definitely not because they aren’t ordered based on where the factories are. People in Newcastle wanted the Tyne and Wear Metro to order new trains from Hitachi so they could be built locally at Newton Aycliffe, but they went with Stadler.

A very small but vocal minority of people wanted the Tyne and Wear Metro contract to go to Hitachi for this reason.

This is despite nothing official having ever surfaced saying that Newton Aycliffe would have been where these were actually made if they did win! Aycliffe has so far only produced/finished a few light rail type units for the Milan project, and only as a result of pandemic-related capacity issues in Italy.

The majority of people in the region were more concerned that the trains procured were produced to a high standard, and would perform well.

I'm a little bit disappointed that a variant of the Underground S stock hasn't been adopted in either Merseyside or T&W, as it's a cracking train

The S-Stock would have been entirely unsuitable for Tyne and Wear, and I suspect not much better for Merseyrail, to the extent that any variant would to all intents and purposes be a different product.

They're good trains, but as others have mentioned the Stadler offering will prove to be far superior for these two networks in the long run.

 

[LocoLyn]

The start of production usually just means tooling up early on. The first bodyshell will probably be months away.

I get what you mean though (it’s not really “instead”) and yes, it’s probably the same factories. If the 53 777’s are done or almost done they're most likely rolling onto the Metro units. I suspect they aren’t quite done yet though, as the order for the last 777’s to be battery units was fairly recent and I doubt Stadler can turn that aspect around so quickly from a trial battery design.

Following on from this, there’s a fair few sitting idle on the continent in this video: https://twitter.com/andybtravels/status/1427298208842199045?s=21

Wonder if they’ll couple them all together and run them round Wildenrwth to get their 500 miles FFR done in one go?

Hi Skie.

The 777's have to each complete 1500 miles of FFR